Matryoshka Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I need help figuring my youngest out. She was really easy to teach as a younger kid - I had her a grade ahead, and she picked up a lot by osmosis it seemed. But by late elementary I started to worry that she would be mature enough to be a grade ahead, so I 'held her back' in 5th - although I did not hold her back in content, just did the next thing. A big reason I thought she had maturity issues was largely because she has a tendency to give up easily if things were hard, do things slap-dash, lack of attention to detail. She hates to be bored. She finds reading boring - she can read quite well, with decent comprehension, but she doesn't like it, unless it's Warriors or Seekers (she has also read Harry Potter, Hunger Games and a bunch of Percy Jackson, but years ago now). I have tried all kinds of other books - she tends to be very resistant, nay, oppositional, to anything I suggest, including trying to help her find more resources about things she likes. Math has always been her favorite subject. She finished up Singapore 5 in 4th (would have been 5th before adjustment), then Singapore 6A, then she did AoPS online, where she received an A for the first half, and an A- for the second. In 6th she went to school (her sisters went to high school that year, and she wanted to try school). She completely flubbed the placement exam, which was very easy math for her, but she didn't seem to want to bother to do things like line up the columns in multi-column addition and multiplication, then she added them wrong because of that, and didn't check her work. I showed them the AoPS stuff she'd been doing, and they agreed to let her go into "accelerated" math anyway (which was just 6th grade math still, just with extra worksheets). She did fine with that; her only bad math grade was a "favorite number crown" she was supposed to decorate, and then the class marched around the school with them on. She thought the project was stupid (have to agree) and put no effort into it, and it brought her grade down that term. Then she was home for 7th. It was a good year. She did AoPS Algebra through about chapter 17, I think? She really liked it and did well with it as she went along, but I could see again that if she came across something she hadn't seen in a while, she forgot how to do it until prompted. I decided to have her do a more 'traditional' Geometry this year, and signed her up for an online class (Jurgensen), and had her review Algebra with Khan. She did well with the Khan (although there were some sticky parts she needed to review a bit longer). She didn't care much for the traditional online Geometry class, and wished she could have continued with AoPS. Sometime in November she started being really difficult and it was pulling teeth to get her to complete anything. She was only on track in three subjects, LA wasn't getting done at all. She didn't want to work with me, but alone she tried to sneak movies/tv shows, video games, etc (much of her work was online, so hard to block those - blocking individual sites she'd just find new ones, blocking all video and games usually made her online classes/tutorials not work). So she's back in school. She totally flunked the placement test again (didn't finish in time, and made some dumb errors). She's back in Algebra - and the slower one that they only cover 1/2 the book by the end of the year(!). She's been taking the 'accelerated' tests/quizzes as well to try to move up, but I'm not sure how it will go - almost 1/2 the days since she started have been snow days, and there's often a gap between when she gets the study materials and when she takes the test, and she will not review the stuff again right before. Test taking/studying skills are a huge thing she needs to work on, but again, she is extremely resistant. Before the kids went to school (in 9th/6th), I did have them get neuropsych testing just to make sure there weren't any issues that I hadn't noticed because at home they wouldn't be as obvious. I'm not sure how great the psych was. I don't feel like the results were well explained. Youngest did fine in school that year, so I didn't worry too much. But now with this whole math thing - I feel like there's something wrong. Why is a kid who does well in and likes AoPS flunking tests and repeating Algebra? I mean, it could be "just' laziness or sloppiness, but I feel like there might be more going on. She's not unambitious - she would like to go to a Math/Science specialty school - but now that I'm seeing how she tests, I don't think she'd get in. Would these WISC results point to any problem? I feel like the "Processing Speed" thing could be an issue, now that I look back at it? She doesn't generally seem slow, more slap-dash, but maybe that's a problem - she either gets it quickly or shuts down - could this be part of it? But she only performed really badly in the "Coding" part of processing speed - what is that, even? The results below are percentiles, not raw scores. Verbal Comprehension - 75 overall Similarities 75 Vocab 84 Comprehension 63 Perceptual Reasoning - 94 overall Block Design 91 Picture Concepts 75 Matrix 95 Working Memory - 68 overall Digit Span 75 Let/Num Sequencing 63 Processing Speed - 27 overall Coding 16 Symbol Search 50 And if these are no help or explain nothing, anyone have any other ideas? If anybody actually slogs through this and has any insight, I'd be happy to hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Random thoughts and armchair guesses: processing speed is an obvious issue (see Coding subtest). I see a likely underestimate of ability across the board in those scores (this is a student who got As in AoPS Prealgebra in 6th grade-for-age, right?). Accordingly, I would wonder what sorts of issues were impeding her during IQ testing. For example, could be a language processing thing, sequencing, etc. I would guess visual-spatial learner, possibly 2e. As for the math, 6th grade math at B&M school would likely be quite boring after AoPS Prealgebra. I would guess the traditional geometry and now algebra are unpleasant for her visual-spatial way of thinking. It makes sense to me to try to ferret out whether there's a learning issue here or just some sort of annoying developmental stage. I'd want to rule out vision issues for sure and then see a new psych for testing, preferably one willing to explain to your satisfaction better than the last one. ETA, I just noticed those were percentiles rather than scores. Oops, so not as big an underestimate as I was originally thinking, but there is still a potential for that, even with PR. Coding involves looking at rows of letters and then writing them on another sheet. It involves motor speed, both of the eyes and motor speed for writing, as well as vision tracking, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Mousie Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I'm a little rusty on WISC stuff, but it seems to me that a GAI should have been calculated as well as FSIQ because of the disparity between perceptual reasoning and processing speed. Did you get that number? My DS doesn't have processing speed issues, but he does have quite a few similarities with your DD - most especially shutting down if the solution is not immediately apparent. Also the poor study/testing skills (I'm working on it!) and lack of internal motivation. I'm sure you've explained to your DD many times that she won't be admitted to the math/science school solely because she wants it ... all I can tell you on that one is that I have found, much to my dismay, that my son doesn't "hear" me until I've said something at least 1000 times. :banghead: Based on grade level, I'm guessing your DD is 13-14? It wouldn't surprise me if age plays a significant role here.... (Um ... not sure I said anything useful here ... if nothing else, know that I feel for you and hope you get good help figuring it all out!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Y'all are numbers gurus more than I am, but isn't that 20%ile discrepancy where you start looking for disabilities? CAPD can depress the verbal score. And did they screen for ADHD? Seems unfathomable they wouldn't, with what you're describing, but you wouldn't be the first person to get an $$$ eval and not get the rest of the labels till the 2nd $$$ eval. Maybe try again, this time with a new psych? For the hearing, a place that does the complete evals (like our big state university) can do a regular hearing exam (here $35 because it's students) and screen her for the extra stuff. Then if anything flags in the screening you get on the year-long waitlist for the longer eval. I had that $35 eval done on ds. An SLP can run an APD screening tool. Ds failed half of it, but it was because of his dyslexia. The other half he was fine on and the audiologists cleared him. In your case, if it's a ps you could ask for the evals to do an IEP and they can pay for the SLP eval, do a fresh psych eval, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Looking at the lowest scores of processing speed at 27% overall with a coding score at 16%, I would expect the tester to mention a motor planning issue and possibly ADHD. I know nothing other than what I see with my own child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I think it's worth looking into additional tests. I believe a poor coding score qualifies one for extra test time on SATs and such. Slow processing is a bugger--it saps energy big time. I have one with single digit percentile scores in processing (2e). It's not fun. He's still little, and we aren't sure what is making his scores so low, but we plan to get more testing as we find clues (CAPD is one area for additional testing for us). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 Thanks for all the info, guys! Any idea how long between testing I'd have to go to have the insurance company pay again, or is that very individual to plans? What is 'coding', anyway? CAPD is Central Auditory Processing Disorder, yes? How does that manifest? She is actually a good auditory learner - she has a great musical ear, and I think she understands instructions better when she'd read them out loud than when she reads them silently herself. On the other hand, I'm also a very auditory learner, but I know I have this weird thing where I can't hear at all if I'm concentrating on something. It drives people crazy. But I haven't noticed that in her so much. What is a Visual/Spatial learner exactly? I've read about it a lot here, but I don't think I really get it? What kinds of materials would she best get info from if she had this trait? Her older sister has huge vision issues, so she's seen a COVD as her regular eye doctor since she was little, but he never found any vision problems. He did just give her a mild farsighted prescription this last visit to reduce eye strain in close work. But she doesn't appear to have any convergence or tracking or any of those kinds of issues. She's always had horrible handwriting; it has improved marginally over the past couple of years, but it deteriorates quickly if she has to write for longer stretches (fortunately she types fluently). I thought she might have ADHD (pretty sure I have an undiagnosed case myself), and that was one thing I thought might come out in the testing. I think the psych said since her working memory wasn't awful that probably wasn't an issue? I guess really should have gotten a well-recommended neuropsych instead of the one that was conveniently located... Age - yes, she's just turned 14. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I think it's usually an actual 20 point difference (not percentile difference) that is considered a significant discrepancy, yes? So you'd look at your report and see the numbers and see if there are any discrepancies. Your ped can do the EF questionaire, which is the same thing the psych would do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandra Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 ETA I see you results are percentiles, not scores. So what I said below does not apply. I do not know enough to interpret percentiles off the top of my head. Apologies!!!!! ---------------------------- I think for the WISC, the standard deviation is 15 percentage points. So two standard deviations below, or 70, is 'borderline,' while two standard deviations above, or 130, is 'gifted.' More or less, lol. Plus there is a margin of error number. Statistically, 68% will be with one standard deviation, 95% will be within two standard deviations, 99.7% within three standard deviations. Something about the results is not making sense to me. ---------------------- What kind of narrative did the tester write? There should be a long -- and I mean l o n g -- narrative reports interpreting the results and, ideally, making some recommendations. It is not supposed to be up to the parents to get the numbers and figure out what they mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 I think it's usually an actual 20 point difference (not percentile difference) that is considered a significant discrepancy, yes? So you'd look at your report and see the numbers and see if there are any discrepancies. Your ped can do the EF questionaire, which is the same thing the psych would do. I went back to look at the other numbers. The 20 point difference is in what numbers? I have three different sets other than percentiles - Raw, Scaled, and then the IQ range. Where do I need to look for that 20-point spread? Sounds like it might be the IQ numbers - the raw and scaled numbers seem to small to have 20-point spread possibilities? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cammom220 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I need help figuring my youngest out. She was really easy to teach as a younger kid - I had her a grade ahead, and she picked up a lot by osmosis it seemed. But by late elementary I started to worry that she would be mature enough to be a grade ahead, so I 'held her back' in 5th - although I did not hold her back in content, just did the next thing. A big reason I thought she had maturity issues was largely because she has a tendency to give up easily if things were hard, do things slap-dash, lack of attention to detail. She hates to be bored. She finds reading boring - she can read quite well, with decent comprehension, but she doesn't like it, unless it's Warriors or Seekers (she has also read Harry Potter, Hunger Games and a bunch of Percy Jackson, but years ago now). I have tried all kinds of other books - she tends to be very resistant, nay, oppositional, to anything I suggest, including trying to help her find more resources about things she likes. Math has always been her favorite subject. She finished up Singapore 5 in 4th (would have been 5th before adjustment), then Singapore 6A, then she did AoPS online, where she received an A for the first half, and an A- for the second. In 6th she went to school (her sisters went to high school that year, and she wanted to try school). She completely flubbed the placement exam, which was very easy math for her, but she didn't seem to want to bother to do things like line up the columns in multi-column addition and multiplication, then she added them wrong because of that, and didn't check her work. I showed them the AoPS stuff she'd been doing, and they agreed to let her go into "accelerated" math anyway (which was just 6th grade math still, just with extra worksheets). She did fine with that; her only bad math grade was a "favorite number crown" she was supposed to decorate, and then the class marched around the school with them on. She thought the project was stupid (have to agree) and put no effort into it, and it brought her grade down that term. Then she was home for 7th. It was a good year. She did AoPS Algebra through about chapter 17, I think? She really liked it and did well with it as she went along, but I could see again that if she came across something she hadn't seen in a while, she forgot how to do it until prompted. I decided to have her do a more 'traditional' Geometry this year, and signed her up for an online class (Jurgensen), and had her review Algebra with Khan. She did well with the Khan (although there were some sticky parts she needed to review a bit longer). She didn't care much for the traditional online Geometry class, and wished she could have continued with AoPS. Sometime in November she started being really difficult and it was pulling teeth to get her to complete anything. She was only on track in three subjects, LA wasn't getting done at all. She didn't want to work with me, but alone she tried to sneak movies/tv shows, video games, etc (much of her work was online, so hard to block those - blocking individual sites she'd just find new ones, blocking all video and games usually made her online classes/tutorials not work). So she's back in school. She totally flunked the placement test again (didn't finish in time, and made some dumb errors). She's back in Algebra - and the slower one that they only cover 1/2 the book by the end of the year(!). She's been taking the 'accelerated' tests/quizzes as well to try to move up, but I'm not sure how it will go - almost 1/2 the days since she started have been snow days, and there's often a gap between when she gets the study materials and when she takes the test, and she will not review the stuff again right before. Test taking/studying skills are a huge thing she needs to work on, but again, she is extremely resistant. Before the kids went to school (in 9th/6th), I did have them get neuropsych testing just to make sure there weren't any issues that I hadn't noticed because at home they wouldn't be as obvious. I'm not sure how great the psych was. I don't feel like the results were well explained. Youngest did fine in school that year, so I didn't worry too much. But now with this whole math thing - I feel like there's something wrong. Why is a kid who does well in and likes AoPS flunking tests and repeating Algebra? I mean, it could be "just' laziness or sloppiness, but I feel like there might be more going on. She's not unambitious - she would like to go to a Math/Science specialty school - but now that I'm seeing how she tests, I don't think she'd get in. Would these WISC results point to any problem? I feel like the "Processing Speed" thing could be an issue, now that I look back at it? She doesn't generally seem slow, more slap-dash, but maybe that's a problem - she either gets it quickly or shuts down - could this be part of it? But she only performed really badly in the "Coding" part of processing speed - what is that, even? The results below are percentiles, not raw scores. Verbal Comprehension - 75 overall Similarities 75 Vocab 84 Comprehension 63 Perceptual Reasoning - 94 overall Block Design 91 Picture Concepts 75 Matrix 95 Working Memory - 68 overall Digit Span 75 Let/Num Sequencing 63 Processing Speed - 27 overall Coding 16 Symbol Search 50 And if these are no help or explain nothing, anyone have any other ideas? If anybody actually slogs through this and has any insight, I'd be happy to hear. The only thing I can say is what you know-- processing speed is low. 16th percentile coding and 95th percentile in matrix reasoning (some say math potential is best measured by matrix reasoning) is a huge discrepancy. Basically, your daughter's potential is measured far above her "output." (i.e. processing). Assuming that these scores are an accurate reflection of ability-- it completely explains the frustration and math problems at school. Did you have a full neuropsych exam (forgive me if I overlooked). This looks like inattentive ADHD. 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camino Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Hi. Your child's scores are very similar to my 9-year-old son's (exact same Perceptual Reasoning and Processing Speed, I think. His Verbal was in the 80s and Working Memory as well). His diagnosis is severe ADHD. He also has dysgraphia and generalized anxiety. I am obviously influenced by my son's experience (we got a 30 page neuropsych report, by the way!), but your child's numbers seem to strongly suggest ADHD to me. By the way, my son also hyper-focuses, as you were saying that you do. You could scream "ICE CREAM!" or "FIRE!" right behind him while he is reading and he wouldn't budge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camino Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Hi. Your child's scores are very similar to my 9-year-old son's (exact same Perceptual Reasoning and Processing Speed, I think. His Verbal was in the 80s and Working Memory as well). His diagnosis is severe ADHD. He also has dysgraphia and generalized anxiety. I am obviously influenced by my son's experience (we got a 30 page neuropsych report, by the way!), but your child's numbers seem to strongly suggest ADHD to me. By the way, my son also hyper-focuses, as you were saying that you do. You could scream "ICE CREAM!" or "FIRE!" right behind him while he is reading and he wouldn't budge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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