ajfries Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 We're considering getting a puppy. It'd be a Red Heeler mutt (about 1/4 Heeler) and we'd be bringing it home in a month or so. If we go through with this :laugh: I'd like to do positive reinforcement clicker training. I'm looking for book recommendations, both just a general 'raising a puppy' books and/or specifically training your puppy. It's a bonus if I can read it on my kindle without clueing in the kids, just in case we decide it's not the right time for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bibiche Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Check out the monks of New Skete. Good luck with your puppy. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plansrme Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 You should skip the first few months and send him to me. I am an expert puppy trainer. When he reaches that leggy, in-between stage is fully trained, I'll send him back to you. No charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Anything by Patricia McConnell. Most of her books aren't so much specific training info, but more general info about how to understand your dog. IME most dog raising problems are exacerbated because the human doesn't understand the "why" of dog behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajfries Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 You should skip the first few months and send him to me. I am an expert puppy trainer. When he reaches that leggy, in-between stage is fully trained, I'll send him back to you. No charge. It's tempting, especially considering I'd possibly be housebreaking the puppy and potty training the toddler at the same time....wait....would you be willing to take the toddler instead? He's got THE most adorable dimples. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Yay for positive reinforcement training!!!! Consider yourself clicked & treated!!! :DAny of the books on this page: http://store.clickertraining.com/puppy-training-books.htmlYes to anything by Patricia McConnellAlsoIan Dunbar put his entire puppy book online for free. Raising a Behaviorally Healthy Puppy, Suzanne Hetts & Daniel Estep The Power of Positive Dog Training, Pat Miller Exel-erated Learning: Explaining How Dogs Learn & How Best to Teach Them, Pam Reid Perfect Puppy, Sophia Yin also - lots of great resources online!Below I'm cutting & pasting from an email I send to new pup owners:Kikopup – hands down one of my FAVOURITE trainers!http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF26FD559887E7EA4 – this is her playlist for new puppy owners. The rest of her channel is excellent too.This is her website: https://dogmantics.com/Dog Star Daily / Ian DunbarThere are some great free puppy raising tips here: http://www.dogstardaily.com/ Ian Dunbar’s article “After you get your puppy†http://www.mannersformutts.com/puppies/pdfs/DrIanDunbarsAfterYouGetYourPuppy.pdf & I love this socialization checklist http://www.mannersformutts.com/puppies/pdfs/Socialization%20checklist.pdf other great resources are Sue Ailsby’s Training Levels http://sue-eh.ca/page24/page23/ Silvia Trkman’s blog & her online classes at LoLaBuLand http://www.lolabuland.com/ (the next online puppy class is on now. That class actually has no minimum or maximum age & it’s a great tricks & foundations class for any dog sports or just for fun) If you go to this page you can see some of the things they teach - http://www.lolabuland.com/online-classes/puppy-class/ There are lots of clicker resources so let me know if you want more or to talk more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 oh & sorry but I thumbs down the Monks. They're pretty outdated in their understanding of dogs & I haven't seen anything to indicate any progress there - if anything, they've gone backwards by adding electronic shock collars to their program :glare: .For a clicker and positive reinforcement oriented trainer, they don't offer much of use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bibiche Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 oh & sorry but I thumbs down the Monks. They're pretty outdated in their understanding of dogs & I haven't seen anything to indicate any progress there - if anything, they've gone backwards by adding electronic shock collars to their program :glare: . For a clicker and positive reinforcement oriented trainer, they don't offer much of use. Good to know. It is what I read and liked when I had my puppy, but that was long, long ago and as he was a border collie there was pretty much no training involved besides asking him once, politely, to do something. I am guessing having a border collie puppy disqualifies me from giving normal puppy advice. ;) eta yikes! shock collars! i won't recommend them anymore. thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanne115 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 http://www.amazon.com/Puppy-Preschool-Revised-Raising-Right---Right/dp/0312375913/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423851892&sr=8-1&keywords=puppy+preschool I loved this book when I raised my first Standard Poodle. I don't remember a lot about it, but I know I liked it. Congrats on your new fur baby! Suzanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Good to know. It is what I read and liked when I had my puppy, but that was long, long ago and as he was a border collie there was pretty much no training involved besides asking him once, politely, to do something. I am guessing having a border collie puppy disqualifies me from giving normal puppy advice. ;) eta yikes! shock collars! i won't recommend them anymore. thanks. oh lol, about border collies. I personally am always a bit wary of any pro trainers who have only worked with bc's because holy cow, those can be totally unlike any other dog :D Fwiw, I read the monks too eons ago & thought then they had some interesting points - esp about bonding the dog to a handler. But yeah, the science of dog training has marched on & left them in the dust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Oh forgot to say that www.dogwise.com is imo one of the best sources for utd quality dog resources.I see they have Jane Killions new Puppy Culture dvd - pricey but I love her. She is the author of When Pigs Fly - which is a great book for anyone dealing with a more independent, less biddable breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I love dogs, spend inordinate amounts of time with our just turned 10 month old Vizsla getting him lots of play time, socialization, and training. I prefer positive training. Do agility and formal obedience classes with PR trainers, etc. I don't have an e-collar. I work my dog off hand, voice, and (especially good for us at a distance) whistle signals. We're near 100% recall of a whistle, and work on it daily. That said, I disagree with the idea that e-collars equal abuse. I know many dog owners who use them responsibly. E-collars have "tone" (sound) and "vibrate" modes that no one can accuse of being cruel that can effectively communicate to a big-running dog that it is time to come in. For hunters and others in the field, it allows people to give their dogs more room to run. I use (and prefer) a whistle for the same purpose, but the e-collar is effective too. The "stimulation" mode (aka "shock") causes controversy, and is a feature that can be abused. But people who are informed and responsible can use very mild stimulation to reinforce training that is already established my other means (not as a "training" tool itself. It also gives a handler the chance to give a correction by remote at a distance when stopping a dog that might be overwhelmed by prey-drive (other other temptation) and might otherwise be headed into a situation that could cause injury or death. A dog careening into barbed wire, or onto an open highway is in danger. In these instances an e-collar can be a life-saver. I understand there are abusive idiots in the world, and that an abusive idiot, a dog, and an e-collar might be a very bad mix. But used responsibly an e-collar can be a very valuable tool. My 2 cents. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Well, Bill, you & I disagree on this.FTR, I've used an e-collar on myself & one of my dogs is a very drivey, very birdy dog, whom I adopted as an adult (& who came with a whole package of undesirable behaviors)I can see WHY people would want to use them. I just choose not to.Look, behaviorism is descriptive, not prescriptive. The four quadrants of operant conditioning explain HOW bhvr changes. They ALL "work" in that they do modify behavior.I choose ethically to try as much as possible to limit myself to one quadrant. This is an ethical decision mostly but also partly guided by research indicating there can be fallout from using aversives & there are real reasons to avoid using them. Further reading: American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior - Position Statement "The Use of Punishment for Behavior Modification in Animals"http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/Combined_Punishment_Statements.pdf Fallout from the use of Aversives The End for Shock Collars? http://www.companionanimalpsychology.com/2013/06/the-end-for-shock-collars.htmlBut mostly, at the end of the day, I don't use aversives because why would I choose to do that when I can get the same results in a different way.Anyway - let's leave it there. The OP did request clicker & positive training resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Well, Bill, you & I disagree on this. FTR, I've used an e-collar on myself & one of my dogs is a very drivey, very birdy dog, whom I adopted as an adult (& who came with a whole package of undesirable behaviors) I can see WHY people would want to use them. I just choose not to. Look, behaviorism is descriptive, not prescriptive. The four quadrants of operant conditioning explain HOW bhvr changes. They ALL "work" in that they do modify behavior. I choose ethically to try as much as possible to limit myself to one quadrant. This is an ethical decision mostly but also partly guided by research indicating there can be fallout from using aversives & there are real reasons to avoid using them. Further reading: http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/Combined_Punishment_Statements.pdf Fallout from the use of Aversives http://eileenanddogs.com/fallout-aversives-punishment-negative-reinforcement/ The End for Shock Collars? http://www.companionanimalpsychology.com/2013/06/the-end-for-shock-collars.html But mostly, at the end of the day, I don't use aversives because why would I choose to do that when I can get the same results in a different way. Anyway - let's leave it there. The OP did request clicker & positive training resources. I also choose not to. And I have a very birdy dog with a very strong drive. I also choose to use positive methods whenever possible. But it isn't ethical to allow dogs to run into danger either. Better, in my book, to use other tools (hence, I use a whistle) but my choice comes with some risk. Were I in more dangerous situations I might make other choices, as do many other people who hunt or take dogs in the field. E-collars can be used responsibly and ethically. The "anti" movement paints with a broad-brush, and (wrongly) assumes theirs is the only ethical choice. It is not. The movement to outlaw e-collars is misguided . Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajfries Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 Hornblower, THANK YOU for that massive list of resources! I was considering The Puppy Primer by Patricia McConnell but Amazon doesn't have "Look Inside" available on that one. I'd love to see what you've got for clicker training resources, too. I've watched lots of the Kikopup videos, and I really like them. I guess I'm trying to figure out the bridge between the training sessions and "real life". Do you work on just one thing per training session or do you work on the one thing every training session until they've mastered it? I'd love a book (or DVD or website) that goes week by week or skill by skill. To what extent, if any, do I get the kids involved in the training? Also- my workmate (whose dog recently had the litter of 6) is planning on letting the pups go to their new homes at 6 weeks of age. I've read differing opinions on whether this is too soon or not. I also imagine going to get to know the puppies first a bit before we pick one out; I wonder what are some things to be looking for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 6 weeks is too young. There are many puppy personality tests online. While not a perfect predictor of future behavior they can be informative to prospective owners. Personally I like bolder dogs. Worked out for us as everyone else in the litter our guy came from wanted more "submissive" dogs, and the breeder assigned us the pup I badly wanted. Not bad to think through what sort of dog you really want temperment-wise. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saddlemomma Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Anything by Cesar Milan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Anything by Cesar Milan. Quickly put on flame-suit :D Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Quickly put on flame-suit :D Bill I'm trying to ignore it. It's very, very hard. ;) Except I'm pretty sure just from reading her questions that Jenna has enough knowledge to know that's not the type of resource she's interested in. Six weeks is too young. If at all possible I'd leave the pups together with mama until eight weeks. But at least seven. Every day is invaluable in terms of what they'll learn from being with mama and each other. I personally like middle-of-the-road puppies. The ones who aren't too extroverted or too introverted, too energetic or too lazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajfries Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 I'm trying to ignore it. It's very, very hard. Except I'm pretty sure the OP has enough knowledge to know that's not the type of resource she's interested in. Six weeks is too young. If at all possible I'd leave the pups together with mama until eight weeks. But at least seven. Every day is invaluable in terms of what they'll learn from being with mama and each other. Lol. Caesar Milan...I, well...I don't much buy what he's trying to sell. I'd much prefer the puppies be older. I don't know that the owner realizes the benefits to waiting. I'm sure she's just thinking the sooner they're off to their forever homes the better. I'll probably just tell her we wouldn't be able to take the puppy until such and such date. If that isn't ok then perhaps we won't be getting a pup after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Hi Jenna, You can look inside Patricia McConnell's book here http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/store/files/images/The%20Puppy%20Primer%20LOOK%20INSIDE.pdf mini brag - I've met her at a conference here in Vancouver & she's lovely :) I'd also suggest having a look at Sue Ailsby's clicker training levels. The old ones are still avail for free online. She has re-edited them, changed some things around & the new ones are a paid e-book but there's really nothing wrong with working off the old levels. You introduce a bunch of behaviors & just increase their difficulty (mostly by asking for greater duration & adding distractions/variable surfaces etc). Generally you don't move out of a level until all the skills in the level have been mastered. I keep sessions short & do lots of them. With a younger dog or a foster that's new to my home, I keep clickers on me (or use the YIP voice like Emily from kikopup does) & food in containers around the house & in my pockets so I can 'catch them doing something right' all the time. I do have a mind set that I'm training ALL the time, but training sessions are a little more organized & focused, kwim? I like to get everyone in the family on board with training. If taking classes, everyone should attend & observe (except very small kids) while one main person participates in the class, so you're all on the same page as to what's being done & how. Hm, age of puppies - I'm getting out of my realm as I don't really do puppies. I foster & adopt older dogs. 4 months is my youngest LOL. I'd say partly it depends on what the bitch is like & what the breeder is doing with the pups. If they're getting early neurological stimulation, if they're set up in an rich environment, if the bitch is stable & attentive & calm, I'd be inclined to wait till closer to 8 weeks. But if it's a not so great or enriching environment, then it might be better to pull the pup & get started early. See, with an experienced breeder, I'd be letting them pick because I'd trust their experience on reading their pups & finding a good balance of drive & biddability for each family. It will depend on what you want. Do you want to do dog sports? Do you want a dog that is go, go, go, go. or not? I'd probably look for a pup that is neither 'in your face' nor hiding for ages, but somewhere in between: ie, takes a moment, susses the situation out & then checks things out. There are a lot of articles out there on puppy temperament testing but I'm pretty unconvinced by them - not enough science to back up their claims. Oh & check out this article Rethinking Puppy Socialization This is an excellent article on what good socialization programs might look like. if you're near Detroit Michigan in March, ClickerExpo is happening :) http://www.clickertraining.com/clickerexpo/dearborn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Karen Pryor says she just ignores CM and refuses to discuss it so I've been trying to do that :D btw, for anyone listening in, what's wrong with CM is the same as what's wrong the monks & the explanation is in a link I posted above in post #7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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