Need suggestion for DS's PreA pace

[Cottonwood]

DS12-7th grade (JUST turned 12 yesterday) has been working through Saxon Alg 1/2 since Sept.  This is his first year back to hs'ing (hs'ed in early elem).  In 6th grade, he took Pre-A the whole year.  This district actually starts pre-A concepts during the last 6 wks of 5th grade.  All along, an honors math student.

 

As with DD14, when she came home in 7th to HS, DS is needing to repeat some parts of Pre-A this year to 'shore up' everything.  In public school, they gave them worksheets, they never had to write problems down, just do the math, they weren't given a lot of repetition, and where they were weak in a skill, it was not often revisited.  He's made a huge transition this year as everything he knew about math has shifted.  He must write all the problems down, he must WRITE THE EQUATIONS down!  For goodness sake, his teachers used to let them just write down the answer and never made them show their work, or show that they followed the actual equation.  Basically, his math has become MUCH more detail oriented and as a result, he is becoming a better math student before my eyes. 

 

Great?  Yeah, well, here's the issue.  He takes HOURS and HOURS to do a lesson. (collectively)  He sits (or stands) and stares into the air, does some work, looks around, stares hard at the paper, and (i've timed him) he will complete the more complicated, multi step problems in about 30-45 minutes.  I allot 1.5 hrs a day for math and he can sit for that just fine.  Some days he does about 15 problems, some days he does about 2 or 5 in that time.  When I work side by side w/ him, he is only sightly quicker.  When he's staring I ask at times if he needs help and he says no, he's doing the math.  Even though he is supposed to be writing it down.  Consequently, though he knows very well I need to see the math, he will skip many steps on paper, and when the answer is wrong we both have no idea where it went wrong.  He is usually given those problems BACK to redo the way I have asked him to.  

 

When he writes his problem down, does the correct equation completely, shows his work, etc, he is a A- student.

 

I thought maybe since he's been learning pre-A concepts for so long, maybe it's not hard enough for him so we went through teh book together for the first couple of months using white boards and he would show me that he knew whatever concepts we were coming across, together.  We'd skip those lessons and I finally stopped on lesson 44 in the book at the end of October, identifying this through many methods, as being where he needed to stop and do the book as intended.  He is now on lesson 64 today.   So in 3+ months he's done 20 lessons and a few tests.    We do around 18 days of school a month and only took off a couple weeks in all that time.  The other day I gave him 1/2 a lesson (15 problems) to do and told him I'd try seeing how long it took him to do that and I'd let him go past 1.5 hours that day just to test it out.  I kid you not............4 hours.  It was one of those trial days ..I just wanted to see how it went.  He was not quicker or slower at the beginning or end.  I've even let him go way far into the book to see if he needs more of a challenge...= complete fail.

 

I remember last year my DD had this issue (they are one  yr apart in studies).  She came home from ps and hit a huge math wall as she adjusted to..what I consider...a more solid way of doing math.  This year, she is in Alg 1, I haven't visited w/ her AT ALL b/c she is able to score a 95% or better every day, checks her own work, finds the problem and corrects it and is completely accountable.  I know that if I stick to it w/ DS, he will also come out of it stronger.  

 

The question:  I just don't know how to support him in the meantime. What do I ask him to do?  Surely I can't assign him 1 lesson a WEEK, since it's taking him SO DANG LONG to do his work.  The MOST frustrating thing is that HE KNOWS THE CONCEPTS..or more of them, that we've worked on.  But doing the problems becomes impossible.

 

Wondering if a mastery approach might not be best for him.........

[Luckymama]

It might be Saxon, not your son.

[chiguirre]

T has some of the same issues as your son and is also about to turn 12 next month. IMHO, it's the age. She can be very smart and then, it's like a light goes off and she stares of into space and tells you 3*2 is 5. We're working through Virtual Homeschool Group's free, online, at your own pace Saxon Algebra 1 and that has made it much less painful for both of us. She has to enter her answers into the computer and it tells her if they are right or wrong. If you forget the units, it's wrong. If you made a mistake with the negative sign, wrong. If you can't add 6+3 correctly, wrong. There is no argument with the computer about how right an answer has to be. Unfortunately, they don't have either Alg 1/2 or Math 8/7 done yet. In your situation, if you think he knows the concepts, I'd give him the algebra placement test and enroll him in the VHSG course if he scores well enough. If not, I'd start giving him the tests until he gets less than 85% and jump to that point in the book. Try not to stress out. It's really pretty typical and it will get better, maybe even tomorrow. Of course the day after tomorrow is a crap shoot.

 

(I'm sure you know your ds is a grade ahead. T is in 6th grade and is even a youngish 6th grader because our cutoff is Sept. 1. If you think he needs the extra time to emerge from the tween fog, I'd consider relabeling his grade before you hit high school. Even bright kids seem to have attention issues at this age and they need the time to get their focus back before tackling high school work and having their grades count.)

[mom31257]

Does he have the same problem with other subjects or just math?

[Cottonwood]

chiguirre, yes, he skipped kindergarten bc he was public schooled at the time, was already reading chapter books and doing math with his 2nd grade sister.  i knew this might bite us later lol  he really, really lacks emotional maturity ...a lot.  i have him doing a very rigorous curriculum that could very well take 18 months per level, and we plan to just see how it goes before advancing him in the next yr or two.  although, he is very aware of when he 'should' be in 8th so im goung to have to explain how my pacing for grade levels is different than public school.  hes so competitve even with himself.  hes also very, very intense.  thank u for mentioning the  saxon online option.  i need to look that up.

 

 

 i have often tjought of just giving him 5 to 7 math problems a day after teaching the lesson and moving on....just until he gains some maturity and his fog lifts...to keep him practiced and moving, even if very slowly.???

 

maybe hes ready for Alg 1?  he has asked about a couple Dolciani textbooks i have, both alg 1.  it just seems like hes been doing preA foor so long   we thought he needed more at home practice once he started hs'ing based on placement tests.  i did start him out by testing him and stopping where he started failing.  that put us at lesson 44 in the book.  we havent gotten far tho.  i let him try alg 1 out for a couple weeks and he ended up just going back to his pre A.  

 

he is foggy and slow some days, all day.  but we have only ground to a halt and see tears with math.  ive tried khan to break it up as well as changed some other techniques.  nothing has made a difference  im open to switching programs, i just dont know which one.  or if its necessary.

 

his focus...he has none whatsoever.  unless we are talking video games, naturally.  sorry for typos, on my phone.

[EndOfOrdinary]

Try a different program and see if it is math as a subject or if it is the approach of Saxon. Ds hated Saxon. Math was drudgery. He did it, but slowly and did not like it. We switched textbooks and it is a 180. You might consider a trial of a week or two. Have you asked him?

[Cottonwood]

I have asked him.  He says he doesn't know what is so hard about it.  Yet, when we sit down and go through concepts, operations, equations, etc., he knows them and isn't unsteady at all.  I think I just need a program that clicks with him so that he can start doing the work instead of bogging down from this...unknown source of a struggle.

 

 As I said before, my DD had some very similar issues when I brought her home to school last year, also at the same grade level, also with Saxon (after she ditched AOPS in the first week).  She eventually smoothed out and actually requested I order Saxon Alg 1 for her this year and have YET to sit down with her about her math.  She is watching the videos, does her lesson, finishes in one math session of 1.5 hrs, checks it herself, (not the tests tho) and brings it to me just to see.  I would have NEVER guessed it would be like this for her, but I was so hopeful.  I chose Saxon on a whim, as something else to try b/c I had no idea what her math 'style' was since it was our first year hs'ing.  I feel so fortunate it clicked.  I also saw a HUGE jump in maturity in her in that year.  

 

That's, of course, what I'd like for him.  He is very emotionally immature tho.  I almost ...ALMOST feel like treading water a little bit the rest of this year, having him use Khan, every other day, going over his Saxon lessons in a staggered way, etc... till he matures a bit.  He's also newly into puberty.  I just don't know exactly what the solution is for him, or IF I should change programs or WHICH ONE to choose.  But, this forum has helped me realize that sometimes they bog down when the material is too easy.  So sometimes I think of giving him an Alg 1 text and seeing how he does.

 

Maybe I should just go chapter by chapter in his math book and sit with him and start checking off concepts as him and I work on a white board together.  He has flipped through the book and says he knows almost all of it.  The parts he doesn't know,  we could spend more time with.  

 

I'm just lost, in reality though.  He can't tell me what is blocking him and nothing I've tried so far has helped him.  Maybe a mix of things mentioned here would flesh out the issue.  

[Pen]

Do you still have your dd's AOPS? if so, maybe let your ds take a look at it and see if he likes it better ... or let him try Alcumus problems online.

 

My ds started with AoPS, but it did not have enough problems for him, so he went to Saxon 8/7, which is not his favorite, but it is working. He is using the AoPS method though and sort of getting it by working sample problems. He also does not write things down as he works it out. When I looked carefully at what he was doing though it made more sense to me that he is not writing it down. But I also decided that while AoPS was not enough practice for my ds to "get it" in a solid way, Saxon 8/7 is too much and so he is doing only 5 pages per day, 5 days per week (less than a full lesson). It means he will not be done by June, but it is less of an emotional struggle. He was doing only 3 per day 7 days per week for awhile, but the work on weekends got old.

 

A whole other approach might be Life of Fred, which has very few problems per chapter.

 

Or to let him look at what you can of samples of various math books available online. Or maybe some NASA math program for a change. Or Zacarro's Real World Algebra. Or CK12 Algebra on a computer. There are so many choices now, something probably will fit him.  

 

Also, consider, well, he is 12. 12 years can be foggy and moody.

[BusyMom5]

I"ve started letting my DD skip some problems in Saxon 8/7.  She needs to subtract 20 from the current lesson number, and any problem that is from before that number she can skip.  It  is usually only a handful of problems, but it makes her feel better about doing math.  This is also our first year HSing, so I wanted to see in part where she was, and how she learned.  I also have AoPS, but it was just too fast, and she couldn't keep up.  We also did Life of Fred for a while, and she does it for fun, but it does not have enough repetition.  I'd try tweaking Saxon to see if he can still score high on tests, but skip a handful of problems. 

 

As to his age, he would only be in 6th grade where I live, and so I'd consider him 6th grade maturity-wise, and I'd plan to just stall out here in math until he is ready to move on.  He's not going to be behind if he's already a year ahead.  My DD is the same age, and I still consider her a 6th grader even though we are doing Saxon 8/7, and plan to do Algebra in 7th grade.  Hormones do mess up our days, and math can definitely be a trigger!  Some days she just cannot do math, it's like her brain is otherwise occupied, and she cannot do anything that requires a lot of thinking.  In PS, the problems were a lot different than Saxon.  They had one type of problem on a page, and did the same equation over and over.  I think this is a strength of Saxon- they have to figure out how to solve each problem, and it's not always the same!

Best of luck!

[Cottonwood]

Do you still have your dd's AOPS? if so, maybe let your ds take a look at it and see if he likes it better ... or let him try Alcumus problems online.

 

My ds started with AoPS, but it did not have enough problems for him, so he went to Saxon 8/7, which is not his favorite, but it is working. He is using the AoPS method though and sort of getting it by working sample problems. He also does not write things down as he works it out. When I looked carefully at what he was doing though it made more sense to me that he is not writing it down. But I also decided that while AoPS was not enough practice for my ds to "get it" in a solid way, Saxon 8/7 is too much and so he is doing only 5 pages per day, 5 days per week (less than a full lesson). It means he will not be done by June, but it is less of an emotional struggle. He was doing only 3 per day 7 days per week for awhile, but the work on weekends got old.

 

A whole other approach might be Life of Fred, which has very few problems per chapter.

 

Or to let him look at what you can of samples of various math books available online. Or maybe some NASA math program for a change. Or Zacarro's Real World Algebra. Or CK12 Algebra on a computer. There are so many choices now, something probably will fit him.  

 

Also, consider, well, he is 12. 12 years can be foggy and moody.

 

I really thought he was going to be the one that latched onto AoPS but when I gave it to him, he did some of the lessons, but soon enough, he put it down out of disinterest.  I sat with him and taught him a few lessons as well and he just didn't seem into it, so it's for sale now.   :(  I had him going on some Alcumus videos but he doesn't want to do them any more.  He is excited by math still, if I don't kill it, that is...  but I see no excitement for the AoPS material.   We talked about using some of the AoPs methods parallel to his Saxon work, but we couldn't quite make that work, either.   I was SOO hoping!

 

I have SERIOUSLY considered LoF, but only to get him on board again.  I see that he is VERY math minded and advanced and I'm not sure about the rigor of LoF?  I may end up just getting him a couple of the books and not TEACHING it, but letting him use it as a supplement on his own.  I am trying to keep him excited about math while trying to match his ability (as close as I can, anyway) and keep him challenged w/o bogging him down.  I guess that's called a good fit ..and I just don't know what program that is, but I appreciate your suggestions and will check them all out.

[Cottonwood]

I"ve started letting my DD skip some problems in Saxon 8/7.  She needs to subtract 20 from the current lesson number, and any problem that is from before that number she can skip.  It  is usually only a handful of problems, but it makes her feel better about doing math.  This is also our first year HSing, so I wanted to see in part where she was, and how she learned.  I also have AoPS, but it was just too fast, and she couldn't keep up.  We also did Life of Fred for a while, and she does it for fun, but it does not have enough repetition.  I'd try tweaking Saxon to see if he can still score high on tests, but skip a handful of problems. 

 

As to his age, he would only be in 6th grade where I live, and so I'd consider him 6th grade maturity-wise, and I'd plan to just stall out here in math until he is ready to move on.  He's not going to be behind if he's already a year ahead.  My DD is the same age, and I still consider her a 6th grader even though we are doing Saxon 8/7, and plan to do Algebra in 7th grade.  Hormones do mess up our days, and math can definitely be a trigger!  Some days she just cannot do math, it's like her brain is otherwise occupied, and she cannot do anything that requires a lot of thinking.  In PS, the problems were a lot different than Saxon.  They had one type of problem on a page, and did the same equation over and over.  I think this is a strength of Saxon- they have to figure out how to solve each problem, and it's not always the same!

Best of luck!

I like the suggestion of subtracting 20 for the lesson number.  I'll file that in my memory as another tactic I may need to try . lol

 

Tweaking Saxon....that's what I am attempting now.  The way I am trying it is this:  I keep notes of the lessons/concepts he repeatedly gets wrong.  Right now those lessons are #62 and #64.  Every day he must work on that concept until he gets them right a few days in a row.  Once he proves it's solid with him, i move on.  Daily we open up to the next lesson in the book. Today it was 68.  We discussed the lesson portion, then I asked him to do the 2-3 practice problems from this lesson.  Then I asked him to go on to 10 problems I hand picked that were a combo of problems from the lessons he continues to miss ..Lessons 62 and 64.  I also add in a few problems from today's lesson, 68.  So his total work includes only the practice problems from today's new lesson and around 3 to 4 from the concepts he needs work on.  I allot 1.5 hrs for math and he gets whatever is left for Khan, every day if he wants.  That was his request...and he's doing Alg 1 on Khan.  

 

Once he stops getting lesson 62 and 64 problems wrong, I'll stop including them in the 10 problems daily.  As we go, weak lessons come and go and new ones pop up.  I am trying to stick to a max of 10 problems, while giving him more repetition on the new concept of the day as well as practicing weak skills.  If I could figure out which program did that, I'd just buy that program, because this is a ton of work for me. lol  I'm only using Saxon b/c we had it, but I'm not 'married' to it and would gladly go to something else if the fit was better.  

 

Then again, I have thought that, yes........he's on the young side to be nearing Alg 1.  Age/maturity is a huge part of the pciture.  When flipping through his Pre-A book he explains nearly everything to verbally as he mentally does it.  He is completely through the Khan Pre-A concepts and on to Alg 1 there.  It's the work on paper that is usually always wrong.  Not always simple math errors either.  He is also getting some equations/methods wrong.  But the concepts are verbally spot-on.  I think that because Khan requires less handwritten work, this is why he is going so quickly through THAT work.  

 

He needs this year to become a more solid math student on paper, getting the equations right on paper, writing down his problems, doing his work on the side, etc.  I don't mind THIS being the year for that and keeping him in this book or in Pre-A to do it.  ESPECIALLY since this is his first year back to homeschooling and he is STILL deschooling in this subject.  I kept my DD in Pre-A last year, her first year back to HSing and it took her ***all year*** long to deschool where math was concerned as well.  Because I insisted she begin to write her problems down, do her work on paper, write all the equations down, etc., she is ship-shape this year and is cruising nicely through Alg 1 (Saxon).   I know he'll get there, too.  But she never protested Saxon methods like he does.  I think that is what I'm seeing.  She was motivated to doing what I asked as far as her paper work, but she also did her 30 problems every day as assigned.  But, she never skipped a grade, is more on target emotionally/mentally/age wise and is also naturally more mature in her make up.  They are VERY different.  He cannnnnnnnnnot get through more than 10 problems a day, but he gets a concept as soon as he is exposed to it and needs far less rep.  She needs to work on it a while, needs more rep, and then she's got it and can move on.  So Saxon seems great for her.  

 

I want each to get their needs met in an individual bases, I'm just not sure what that means for HIM.  The tweaking of Saxon seems to be pleasing him for now.  Next week that all may change.   Thanks for all the suggestions here, ladies!

[Pen]

I really thought he was going to be the one that latched onto AoPS but when I gave it to him, he did some of the lessons, but soon enough, he put it down out of disinterest.  I sat with him and taught him a few lessons as well and he just didn't seem into it, so it's for sale now.   :(  I had him going on some Alcumus videos but he doesn't want to do them any more.  He is excited by math still, if I don't kill it, that is...  but I see no excitement for the AoPS material.   We talked about using some of the AoPs methods parallel to his Saxon work, but we couldn't quite make that work, either.   I was SOO hoping!

 

I have SERIOUSLY considered LoF, but only to get him on board again.  I see that he is VERY math minded and advanced and I'm not sure about the rigor of LoF?  I may end up just getting him a couple of the books and not TEACHING it, but letting him use it as a supplement on his own.  I am trying to keep him excited about math while trying to match his ability (as close as I can, anyway) and keep him challenged w/o bogging him down.  I guess that's called a good fit ..and I just don't know what program that is, but I appreciate your suggestions and will check them all out.

 

 

Maybe also look at Jacobs and Foerster? How about an online class?  What if were to agree to work solidly for an hour per day as much as he can do--not space out and dawdle, but you would not require him to keep going if he did do his work efficiently as best he could for that hour?

 

 

I don't know about the rigor of LoF--I expect it IS probably enough if a student actually does the problems, bridges etc. and doesn't just read the fun story and skip the problems.

[Cottonwood]

Maybe also look at Jacobs and Foerster? How about an online class?  What if were to agree to work solidly for an hour per day as much as he can do--not space out and dawdle, but you would not require him to keep going if he did do his work efficiently as best he could for that hour?

 

 

I don't know about the rigor of LoF--I expect it IS probably enough if a student actually does the problems, bridges etc. and doesn't just read the fun story and skip the problems.

 

I will look up Jacobs and Foerster, thanks.  We made a similar agreement and I gave him a week to try it out.  He didn't hold up his end at all so I had to consider something else.  :(  

[kiana]

I really think it sounds like a mismatch on program. I'd look up samples of several other programs -- find a couple that you think might work -- show him the samples and let him choose from the ones you like.