S/O Gender Identity Thread: Suicide. Why do some choose it but not others?

[TranquilMind]

They value an end to their pain.   Once again, you would not blame someone with cancer for not making their breast cancer go away.  But you will blame someone whose mind doesn't work right for not making that go away.

I'm not blaming them, if that is the case.  You are making the assumption here that everyone who commits suicide is a victim of his malfunctioning brain.  I don't make that assumption. 

 

Obviously, no one is responsible for his malfunctioning brain, if that is indeed the case. 

[Laurie4b]

What is wrong with the way I worded my question now?  I read the response to which you replied, and I do not see a problem in asking the question I have asked, nor do I consider it a moral judgment to observe that (a general one) one chose to live and one did not. 

 

Throughout the thread, you use  words like "persevere" , which has a positive connotation to indicate those who do not commit suicide and negative words "folding" or "not sticking it out" to indicate those who do commit suicide. Try using neutral terms if you don't intend to convey moral judgment.

[Mrs Mungo]

Never mind. There is really no point in explaining the difference in perspective here.

 

But this thread sure did go from "Why does this scenario occur" to personal at lightening speed, with people taking all kinds of offense along the way as if I personally called them out.

 

I don't understand why we can't remain in the topic of "why" and "how" this occurs and discuss the parameters and differences, perhaps using personal anecdotes in an illustrative manner, without going all emotional on others, and leveling accusations on all sorts of slights not intended. But then, that's me. I've even had people close to me commit suicide. I still wonder about it and can discuss it dispassionately (now, it's been awhile).

 

When will I learn?

Are you accusing me of making a personal attack against you? I am not taking personal offense. I have not struggled with lifelong depression (although I have felt the effects of situational depression, which was hard enough). It isn't personal for me to say that someone with bipolar disorder can no more "get over themselves" than someone with cancer. It is a medical certainty.

[TranquilMind]

But she isn't better. She has simply found a way to live with what life has dealt her. She doesn't function the same as someone with two arms, although prosthetic arms are getting pretty amazing. She is able to cope because she has found ways to help. But she isn't better.

 

For some people with mental disease, drugs can often help make life livable. They haven't been cured. They aren't better, they have simply found a way to live with what life has available for them. They have to accept their problem and try and work with it.

 

For some, they accept the long term problem, they try to work with it as best as they know how, and they are unable to find anything to help them cope and ease the pain. Often meds don't work. Telling them to suck it up would be like telling the quadriplegic to suck it up and pull it together and make their legs work. The drugs aren't working, the problem is still there.

That is a matter of perspective.  She isn't better than she would have been with two perfectly functional arms, but she is better than she was before she could use the prosthetic or learned to do some thing with the remaining arm.

 

Look at Bethany Hamilton, the girl who lost an arm to a shark, about whom that Soul Surfer movie was made. 

 

Now there is an optimist, and one who can do more things with her one arm than I can do with two.   Would she be happier if it never occurred? Certainly.  Is she going to let it defeat her?  Not on your life. 

[TranquilMind]

Are you accusing me of making a personal attack against you? I am not taking personal offense. I have not struggled with lifelong depression (although I have felt the effects of situational depression, which was hard enough). It isn't personal for me to say that someone with bipolar disorder can no more "get over themselves" than someone with cancer. It is a medical certainty.

No, not at all.  I didn't say you leveled a personal attack, and I wasn't referring to you when I mentioned that several have become offended, because they have.  I could go pull out all those quotes, but I won't. 

 

What should the person with the bipolar disorder do? 

[TranquilMind]

Throughout the thread, you use  words like "persevere" , which has a positive connotation to indicate those who do not commit suicide and negative words "folding" or "not sticking it out" to indicate those who do commit suicide. Try using neutral terms if you don't intend to convey moral judgment.

Ok.  Kills himself v.  Doesn't kill himself.  Is that better.

[Dory]

That is a matter of perspective.  She isn't better than she would have been with two perfectly functional arms, but she is better than she was before she could use the prosthetic or learned to do some thing with the remaining arm.

 

Look at Bethany Hamilton, the girl who lost an arm to a shark, about whom that Soul Surfer movie was made. 

 

Now there is an optimist, and one who can do more things with her one arm than I can do with two.   Would she be happier if it never occurred? Certainly.  Is she going to let it defeat her?  Not on your life. 

 

But she would've been happier if it never occurred. She was able to process the loss, and learned to work with what she had. That's awesome, it truly is. She was given something (a prosthetic) that made her better able to work around her dysfunction.

 

Some people don't get anything that helps them work around their problem. Sometimes there aren't any 'prosthetics' available yet for that problem. We still haven't cured autism (a brain problem).

[Mrs Mungo]

What should the person with the bipolar disorder do?

The same as the person with cancer-try medications and treatments that may or may not help and hope for a day when we really do have a cure. Until then, I have to recognize the fact that their struggle is not the same as mine, even if the objective facts of their lives were to be exactly the same.

[TranquilMind]

TM, in fact, studies have shown exactly that some brains are more resilient and others are less. There's some fascinating research along these lines talked about in the book Quiet. It's not only in terms of depression, but in terms of how people deal with stimuli in general.

 

It's interesting to me that a few people in this thread are finding the idea that brain chemistry is different from person to person so revolutionary and surprising. It's part of what makes us human, right? We're so different in some ways and yet so the same in others.

 

The idea that having a passing thought of I can't take it anymore or something along those lines is the same as having genuine depression is like someone saying, "I once had too much to drink, therefore I understand alcoholism," or, "I once had a cold, therefore I understand what having ebola is like," or, "I once colored a page in a coloring book, so I'm pretty much just like Monet."

You are minimizing it, though. 

 

What if one has for weeks or months on end said, "I can't take it anymore" to himself/herself?  Does that person know?  How do you even know what the person is experiencing?  One person keeps going positively in the concentration camp, for goodness sakes.  Another just runs and gets shot.  Another hopes he will get shot because he can't take it anymore. 

 

What is the difference between these amazing individuals like Eva Kor and the rest?  I think we ought to study that kind of thing.  We want that. 

[Laurie4b]

Ok.  Kills himself v.  Doesn't kill himself.  Is that better.

 

Yes.

 

[LucyStoner]

Do you think people are out to get you?

 

Because I don't.

 

Clearly not.

 

I was responding this this from you, which is an idea you have plastered on many threads- that you are unpopular and the world is working against you.

 

It's rough to be an optimist by nature.

 

The world wants to work against you, that's for sure.

[TranquilMind]

Throughout the thread, you use  words like "persevere" , which has a positive connotation to indicate those who do not commit suicide and negative words "folding" or "not sticking it out" to indicate those who do commit suicide. Try using neutral terms if you don't intend to convey moral judgment.

It doesn't mean positive or negative to me.  I was just mixing up the language a bit, rather than repeatedly using "kills himself v. doesn't kill himself" over and over in an unwieldy fashion.  

 

It is true that he did not stick it out. 

[TranquilMind]

Clearly not.

 

I was responding this this from you, which is an idea you have plastered on many threads- that you are unpopular and the world is working against you.

 

Well, you are mistaken.  I don't feel anyone is "out to get me".  I don't care if they don't like what I have to say.  Some will, some will not, and I have said this. 

 

We aren't talking about me in this thread, though several of you have chosen to turn the topic in that direction, and even chastise me directly for failing to understand stuff they find normal.  I much prefer to stick to the topic and have attempted to do that repeatedly.  The topic interests me.  The differences interest me.  Even the assumptions interest me. 

[SKL]

Regardless of gender identity issues, I think suicide is something many (if not most) people consider at some point, and most choose not to do.  I don't believe anyone can entirely prevent it in our kids, but I do think that if kids have experience in weathering tough storms, and a view that there are things worth hoping for down the line, then they are more likely to choose to continue working through their suffering instead of ending it for themselves and leaving others to take things from there.

 

My mom's cousin committed suicide as a young man.  He had very bad, uncontrollable epilepsy and was unable to hold a job etc.  I guess he did not see any hope of things getting better in the future.  On the other hand, I had a friend who died of AIDS, and he stuck it out to the end.  He knew each additional day of his life meant something to his loved ones.

 

I considered suicide many times.  Always decided not to do it due to concern for those the suicide would hurt.  But I only had regular ordinary problems compared to those of some others.

[Mrs Mungo]

You are minimizing it, though.

 

What if one has for weeks or months on end said, "I can't take it anymore" to himself/herself? Does that person know? How do you even know what the person is experiencing? One person keeps going positively in the concentration camp, for goodness sakes. Another just runs and gets shot. Another hopes he will get shot because he can't take it anymore.

 

What is the difference between these amazing individuals like Eva Kor and the rest. I think we ought to study that kind of thing.

Scientists DO study it. They study cancer too and cystic fibrosis and diabetes. We don't have cures for any of those things. We only have treatments.

[Lawana]

What are they valuing if they end life before its natural ending?

I do not value my life above absence of unbearable pain, for example. I would not cut off my own limb to preserve my life.

 

as has been mentioned, I can, as a mother, easily envision giving my life for one of my children.

 

"Give me liberty or give me death" is a rational thought which goes against the idea of preserving life at any cost.

 

Religious martyrs who could preserve their life by saying a few words.

 

Just a few examples.

[Farrar]

You are minimizing it, though. 

 

What if one has for weeks or months on end said, "I can't take it anymore" to himself/herself?  Does that person know?  How do you even know what the person is experiencing?  One person keeps going positively in the concentration camp, for goodness sakes.  Another just runs and gets shot.  Another hopes he will get shot because he can't take it anymore. 

 

What is the difference between these amazing individuals like Eva Kor and the rest?  I think we ought to study that kind of thing.  We want that. 

 

How am I minimizing it? I don't see that at all.

 

What I'm trying to tell you is that exactly that is being studied. And that as researchers understand it now, it comes down mostly to things beyond a person's control, that is, their brain chemistry. We know there are ways to counteract that but that doesn't mean that they work for everyone all the time or that everyone will have access to those interventions. Of course resilience is a great trait that we want to learn to encourage and foster when we can. And people who persevere despite both internal and external forces can be inspirational to everyone. I don't think we're arguing against that. We're just saying, that's not enough for everyone.

[TranquilMind]

Regardless of gender identity issues, I think suicide is something many (if not most) people consider at some point, and most choose not to do.  I don't believe anyone can entirely prevent it in our kids, but I do think that if kids have experience in weathering tough storms, and a view that there are things worth hoping for down the line, then they are more likely to choose to continue working through their suffering instead of ending it for themselves and leaving others to take things from there.

 

My mom's cousin committed suicide as a young man.  He had very bad, uncontrollable epilepsy and was unable to hold a job etc.  I guess he did not see any hope of things getting better in the future.  On the other hand, I had a friend who died of AIDS, and he stuck it out to the end.  He knew each additional day of his life meant something to his loved ones.

 

I considered suicide many times.  Always decided not to do it due to concern for those the suicide would hurt.  But I only had regular ordinary problems compared to those of some others.

Yes, this. 

[LucyStoner]

TM, your refusal to accept the medical science behind depression is but one example of you substituting in your personal judgement for facts and choosing to judge rather than seeking to understand.

 

You are not a moron. Anyone can understand this. Different people are different. It may seem too simple but there's a profound message in the simplicity.

[TranquilMind]

How am I minimizing it? I don't see that at all.

 

What I'm trying to tell you is that exactly that is being studied. And that as researchers understand it now, it comes down mostly to things beyond a person's control, that is, their brain chemistry. We know there are ways to counteract that but that doesn't mean that they work for everyone all the time or that everyone will have access to those interventions. Of course resilience is a great trait that we want to learn to encourage and foster when we can. And people who persevere despite both internal and external forces can be inspirational to everyone. I don't think we're arguing against that. We're just saying, that's not enough for everyone.

You are minimizing it through your examples.  You said it was as if someone who tasted alcohol ONE TIME would say that he knows how it is to be an alcoholic.  Or someone who painted once can identify with Monet.

I'm wondering where your boundaries are.    What if he drank for weeks?  Months?  Years?  What if he painted for weeks?  Months? Years?

 

What if one struggled with (fill in the blank with an issue) for days, weeks, months, years?  When does his experience become "valid" to you?  Because it usually is not this easy distinction you have made. 

[TranquilMind]

TM, your refusal to accept the medical science behind depression is but one example of you substituting in your personal judgement for facts and choosing to judge rather than seeking to understand.

 

You are not a moron. Anyone can understand this. Different people are different. It may seem too simple but there's a profound message in the simplicity.

You mean my refusal to accept it as the entire explanation? 

 

It isn't the entire explanation.  If it was, everyone with X condition or disorder would kill himself. 

[obsidian]

You mean my refusal to accept it as the entire explanation? 

 

It isn't the entire explanation.  If it was, everyone with X condition or disorder would kill himself. 

 

By that same logic, anyone who has cancer should die. But they don't, because some forms of cancer are less aggressive and are able to be treated with available drugs. Some forms of cancer are not. This is the same with mental illness.

[Farrar]

You are minimizing it through your examples.  You said it was as if someone who tasted alcohol ONE TIME would say that he knows how it is to be an alcoholic.  Or someone who painted once can identify with Monet.

I'm wondering where your boundaries are.    What if he drank for weeks?  Months?  Years?  What if he painted for weeks?  Months? Years?

 

What if one struggled with (fill in the blank with an issue) for days, weeks, months, years?  When does his experience become "valid" to you?  Because it usually is not this easy distinction you have made. 

 

But that's what you're saying. You're saying that you've had highs and lows, for example and the implication is that somehow you get depression as a result. I'm saying that's offensive as saying that someone who has had one virus (like a common cold) saying they understand what having another virus (like a hemorrhagic fever) is like.

[TranquilMind]

I do not value my life above absence of unbearable pain, for example. I would not cut off my own limb to preserve my life.

 

as has been mentioned, I can, as a mother, easily envision giving my life for one of my children.

 

"Give me liberty or give me death" is a rational thought which goes against the idea of preserving life at any cost.

 

Religious martyrs who could preserve their life by saying a few words.

 

Just a few examples.

That's really easy to say now, sitting in your comfortable home.  What if you were that guy who got caught on a mountain and cut off his arm to live?  What if your kids needed you and they were right there?  Maybe you would.  I don't know. 

 

That's not normal, but his sense of self-preservation led him to it. 

 

I just don't think you can announce what you would do in that case.  I wouldn't. I hope I would choose to live, but I'm not calling that one in advance. 

 

Yes, martyrs are definitely an exception and there are few of them.  I did think of that.  They do exist and they value something else higher than their self-preservation.

[TranquilMind]

But that's what you're saying. You're saying that you've had highs and lows, for example and the implication is that somehow you get depression as a result. I'm saying that's offensive as saying that someone who has had one virus (like a common cold) saying they understand what having another virus (like a hemorrhagic fever) is like.

I'm saying everyone has highs and lows and we do not know the extent of those highs and lows.  The minimization is a result of judging the process from the outcome. 

[Lawana]

You mean my refusal to accept it as the entire explanation?

 

It isn't the entire explanation. If it was, everyone with X condition or disorder would kill himself.

No, because everyone is different. Everyone with the same condition does not manifest it the same way. Because. Different.

 

It is always going to come back to being different.

[Lawana]

That's really easy to say now, sitting in your comfortable home. What if you were that guy who got caught on a mountain and cut off his arm to live? What if your kids needed you and they were right there? Maybe you would. I don't know.

 

That's not normal, but his sense of self-preservation led him to it.

 

I just don't think you can announce what you would do in that case. I wouldn't. I hope I would choose to live, but I'm not calling that one in advance.

 

Yes, martyrs are definitely an exception and there are few of them. I did think of that. They do exist and they value something else higher than their self-preservation.

I was that person on the mountain. You have no idea what you are talking about.

[*Lulu*]

You mean my refusal to accept it as the entire explanation?

 

It isn't the entire explanation. If it was, everyone with X condition or disorder would kill himself.

 

There are very few life situations, medical conditions, or disorders that are as absolute as what you've listed above.

 

Not everyone shot in the head dies.

 

Not everyone with uterine cancer needs a hysterectomy.

 

Not everyone with autism is nonverbal.

 

Not everyone who is blind is totally without any use of their eyes.

 

Absolutes are great in math equations and chem labs, not so much with living beings.

[TranquilMind]

No, because everyone is different. Everyone with the same condition does not manifest it the same way. Because. Different.

 

It is always going to come back to being different.

But is there something that imbues some kids with inner stability and strength or perseverance that others lack in the environment?  In relationships?  With God?  What? 

 

Look at Louis Zamperini, for goodness sakes.  Dude had something strong, for sure.  What, and how do we get it and share it? 

 

Am I the only one who thinks about stuff like this? 

[TranquilMind]

I was that person on the mountain. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Really?   I'm presuming that you are being cryptic here, and not literally stating that you are Aron Ralston, but you are stating that you had a comparable experience, so please, share. 

 

Tell me about your experience and how you overcame? 

[Lawana]

Really? I'm presuming that you are being cryptic here, and not literally stating that you are Aron Ralston, but you are stating that you had a comparable experience, so please, share.

 

Tell me about your experience and how you overcame?

I will say this much. I was on a mountain holding someone who was critically injured and came face to face with exactly what life meant and what I and the injured person were and were not willing to do. I have some first hand knowledge of how strong my survival instinct is. The fact I am here today is not due to any effort on my part.

[Lawana]

But is there something that imbues some kids with inner stability and strength or perseverance that others lack in the environment? In relationships? With God? What?

 

Look at Louis Zamperini, for goodness sakes. Dude had something strong, for sure. What, and how do we get it and share it?

 

Am I the only one who thinks about stuff like this?

Or because we are different?

[TranquilMind]

I will say this much. I was on a mountain holding someone who was critically injured and came face to face with exactly what life meant and what I and the injured person were and were not willing to do. I have some first hand knowledge of how strong my survival instinct is. The fact I am here today is not due to any effort on my part.

Did the other person live?

 

I'm presuming you were younger and stronger than today, and that you are probably not elderly now.  So of course that helps one survive.  An elderly person, despite strength and will, would have a more difficult time surviving physically in harsh circumstances, obviously.

Did you have to discuss the merits with this person of doing anything this drastic?  Were you injured yourself, or just the other person.

 

I'm curious, and you brought it up, so I hope you don't mind discussing it in general terms. 

I'm sorry.  What a harrowing experience that must have been. 

[TranquilMind]

Or because we are different?

Well, HOW are we different?   We are different in some ways.  Not just "different".  We possess various strengths and weaknesses, different values, different thought processes, etc. 

[Dory]

But is there something that imbues some kids with inner stability and strength or perseverance that others lack in the environment?  In relationships?  With God?  What? 

 

Look at Louis Zamperini, for goodness sakes.  Dude had something strong, for sure.  What, and how do we get it and share it? 

 

Am I the only one who thinks about stuff like this? 

 

There are some things that help build resilience in kids. There are enough studies out there you won't have to search hard to find them. But that tends to be resilience with the bumps that are common in life and only if the child has no mental health problems.

 

I can say the most damaging thing seems to be teaching kids that they should be independent. Then when they can't handle it, they don't feel like they can ask for help. If kids are taught how to ask for help when they need it, at least if they can't handle things in life, they know how to get the support and training needed. Definitely ups the odds of them surviving.

[Melinda in VT]

But is there something that imbues some kids with inner stability and strength or perseverance that others lack in the environment?  In relationships?  With God?  What? 

 

Look at Louis Zamperini, for goodness sakes.  Dude had something strong, for sure.  What, and how do we get it and share it? 

 

Am I the only one who thinks about stuff like this? 

 

I think it would be interesting to explore resilience and what, if anything, a person can do to increase theirs. I'm going to try to find a book on the topic to add to my reading list for the year.

 

For me, that's a very different question from why people commit suicide. You've already received great posts explaining that to the extent that it can be explained.

[maize]

There are researchers who study resilience, maybe something like the book referenced in this article would interest you?

 

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1881666

[Lawana]

Well, HOW are we different? We are different in some ways. Not just "different". We possess various strengths and weaknesses, different values, different thought processes, etc.

As has been brought up, one difference is resilience.

 

Different in our will to live. Different in our tolerance to pain. Different in our need for human connection.

 

Is the question what makes us different? Virtually all biological factors exist on a continuum. When you go to the doctor and have a series of tests, the results are compared to a range of values considered normal, which is gathered, I assume, from a bunch of people who are considered healthy. But the value of your blood glucose may be 96 and mine might be 78. Both healthy and normal. But Jane's might be 68 and she doesn't feel quite right. She is a bit light headed and slightly nauseated. And Sue's is158. She is so used to her blood glucose being high she doesn't have any symptoms at all, even though she is clearly in an unhealthy state.

 

The more that is studied about brain activity and behavior, the more it is known that there are biological processes involved. Just because it is not yet quantified like blood glucose, does not mean that it won't be in the future.

 

Insisting that we are really all the same and just make different choices based on our character, goes completely against what is being learned, and as importantly, against the lived experiences of countless people.

 

I believe you are trying to make sense of something that is unfathomable to you. What I, and many others are trying to tell you is that at a most fundamental, biological level, people's brains are different in how they process the same stimuli. Some people have profound depression that has nothing to do with their external situations. Some remain depression free in the most horrible of circumstances. Why is one person different from another? Because that is the way life is, at a biological level.

[Laurie4b]

But is there something that imbues some kids with inner stability and strength or perseverance that others lack in the environment?  In relationships?  With God?  What? 

 

Look at Louis Zamperini, for goodness sakes.  Dude had something strong, for sure.  What, and how do we get it and share it? 

 

Am I the only one who thinks about stuff like this? 

 

If you are asking about the exceptional people who can endure what most cannot, then there are a few answers:

 

This article is a good overview: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2833107/

 

1. Resiliency has been found to be a genetic trait (it helps to mitigate #2)  http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v10/n6/abs/nrn2649.html

 

2. Early childhood trauma (abuse, etc.) negatively alters the  brain and will make an individual more suceptible to later environmental stresses. Therefore, one can assume that people who do exceptionally well in trauma are less likely to have had their brain damaged in early childhood than those who have less coping "rope" so to speak. (people with genetic resiliency will be less damaged than those without it.)

 

3. Something transcendent that makes suffering meaningful helps people to hang on.

 

4. With regard to environmental stress factors , exercise helps to improve resilience. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-m-southwick/trauma-resilience_b_1881666.html

[LucyStoner]

You mean my refusal to accept it as the entire explanation?

 

It isn't the entire explanation. If it was, everyone with X condition or disorder would kill himself.

What a throughly inaccurate conclusion.

 

Some people get lost on the mountain and die. Some people make it back down. The survivors are as lucky and as fortunate as they are strong. To say otherwise would be to say the equivalent that people who died in the concrentration camps were weaker than those who lasted until the camps were liberated. Anne and Margot Frank didn't die because they were insufficiently strong. They died because they were killed by human evil.

 

If someone walks into my house at this very minute and shoots me in the head, I am probably dead. If I live after being shot in the head, that is an extraordinary occurrence but it doesn't make me personally extraordinary. For instance, Gabby Giffords is alive. And that's great. And I am sure things about her and her family aided her recovery. But she is also extremely lucky. Judge John Roll and 5 others died at the hands of the same shooter. They weren't weak. They were shot by a madman.

[regentrude]

We say, "I'm currently experiencing this, but I hope to be much better soon."  Or something like that, at least in my world.

 

Sometimes things go wrong, but we want what is right and don't ever stop persevering toward that end, with varying levels of success...right?

 

Huh?

I do not think that a person who suffers from cerebral palsy because of premature birth, or a person who suffers from multiple sclerosis or other progressively worsening chronic illness, or a person born with a cognitive disability would ever say something like this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mrs Mungo]

Huh?

I do not think that a person who suffers from cerebral palsy because of premature birth, or a person who suffers from multiple sclerosis or other progressively worsening chronic illness, or a person born with a cognitive disability would ever say something like this.

Honestly, it wouldn't even be rational to say it about a chronic progressive disease (which IS something I know about). The rational thing to say is "I am dealing with this issue the best that I can, day by day, maybe some day there will be a better treatment or even a cure."

[TranquilMind]

There are some things that help build resilience in kids. There are enough studies out there you won't have to search hard to find them. But that tends to be resilience with the bumps that are common in life and only if the child has no mental health problems.

 

I can say the most damaging thing seems to be teaching kids that they should be independent. Then when they can't handle it, they don't feel like they can ask for help. If kids are taught how to ask for help when they need it, at least if they can't handle things in life, they know how to get the support and training needed. Definitely ups the odds of them surviving.

I don't know if I would call that "damaging", standing alone.

 

Some of us had to be independent from an early age, for various reasons.  Some kids have been all alone from a very early age, especially in the past, and seemed to do ok over time. 

 

Like anything else, it can be a good thing.  It could be a bad thing too, I suppose, if you refuse to find someone to help you if you do need help with something.   

[TranquilMind]

Honestly, it wouldn't even be rational to say it about a chronic progressive disease (which IS something I know about). The rational thing to say is "I am dealing with this issue the best that I can, day by day, maybe some day there will be a better treatment or even a cure."

All right, word it your way, which isn't all that different from my way.

. 

But there is a difference between the person who says that they are halfway to the grave, dying of something, and another, who says, "This is a good day, and maybe another day will be better.  Maybe a cure or treatment that helps is coming my way."

[TranquilMind]

What a throughly inaccurate conclusion.

 

Some people get lost on the mountain and die. Some people make it back down. The survivors are as lucky and as fortunate as they are strong. To say otherwise would be to say the equivalent that people who died in the concrentration camps were weaker than those who lasted until the camps were liberated. Anne and Margot Frank didn't die because they were insufficiently strong. They died because they were killed by human evil.

 

If someone walks into my house at this very minute and shoots me in the head, I am probably dead. If I live after being shot in the head, that is an extraordinary occurrence but it doesn't make me personally extraordinary. For instance, Gabby Giffords is alive. And that's great. And I am sure things about her and her family aided her recovery. But she is also extremely lucky. Judge John Roll and 5 others died at the hands of the same shooter. They weren't weak. They were shot by a madman.

No one is discounting luck here.  That isn't the topic. 

[Joanne]

You do know that some forms of depression are treatment resistant ?

Yes. Just like cancer, diabetes, asthma, substance abuse, obesity.

[obsidian]

All right, word it your way, which isn't all that different from my way.

. 

But there is a difference between the person who says that they are halfway to the grave, dying of something, and another, who says, "This is a good day, and maybe another day will be better.  Maybe a cure or treatment that helps is coming my way."

But the issue with mental illness is that the nature of the illness interferes with thought processes like that. It is an illness that affects the brain, and affects thought processes. Depression interferes with the natural functions of the brain. Many times it can be helped with medications, but many times it cannot. It is not the fault of the depressed person that their illness interferes with proper functioning of the brain.

[TranquilMind]

But the issue with mental illness is that the nature of the illness interferes with thought processes like that. It is an illness that affects the brain, and affects thought processes. Depression interferes with the natural functions of the brain. Many times it can be helped with medications, but many times it cannot. It is not the fault of the depressed person that their illness interferes with proper functioning of the brain.

So everyone who is depressed has a brain that doesn't function properly?

[Joanne]

I'm sorry. No offense to you personally was intended.

 

I still assert that you have the right to be happy.

The DISEASE of depression is not cure by "being happy."

 

Although a person with treated depression will appear happier.

 

You are making false attributions and revealing a dangerous understanding of depression - possibly other illnesses as well.

[TranquilMind]

Yes. Just like cancer, diabetes, asthma, substance abuse, obesity.

Seriously.. you place obesity and substance abuse in the same category as cancer and asthma?