creekland Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 If this story ends up being true (Italian nurse accused of killing up to 38 patients because she found them or their relatives annoying): http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/italian-nurse-under-investigation-for-killing-up-to-38-patients-because-she-found-them-annoying-9793181.html it would kind of send chills down my spine. I guess the take away would be to always be nice to your nurse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I think the take away is there are psychos wherever you are. I saw this floating around facebook and was ... gobsmacked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kristi26 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I saw this story on Facebook last night. So creepy! I really hope it ends up not being true, but you just never know anymore... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerileanne99 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 If this story ends up being true (Italian nurse accused of killing up to 38 patients because she found them or their relatives annoying): http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/italian-nurse-under-investigation-for-killing-up-to-38-patients-because-she-found-them-annoying-9793181.html it would kind of send chills down my spine. I guess the take away would be to always be nice to your nurse? And more than that! Not only do you have to be always be nice to the nurses when you are in hospital, but have to ensure that any relatives or visitors are as well? I would have to ban my family from visiting me. Very sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Strawberry Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 This isn't new. Angels of mercy/death have been around for a long, long time. Usually in care taking positions. Often with very high death tolls. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_of_Mercy_(criminology) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Harold Shipman. Doctor. 250 dead (it is believed). L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 16, 2014 Author Share Posted October 16, 2014 I think the take away is there are psychos wherever you are. Definitely true, but nonetheless, pretty scary when they are in positions of life/death power. This isn't new. Angels of mercy/death have been around for a long, long time. Usually in care taking positions. Often with very high death tolls. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_of_Mercy_(criminology) Harold Shipman. Doctor. 250 dead (it is believed). L Ok, so you two have helped out my reluctance to do anything medical a lot with this info... :ohmy: And more than that! Not only do you have to be always be nice to the nurses when you are in hospital, but have to ensure that any relatives or visitors are as well? I would have to ban my family from visiting me. I have a couple in my extended family who would have to be banned too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 What I don't get is that if colleagues knew that she deliberately gave laxatives to her patients before the end of shift to mess with the next shift's nurses, why that wasn't reported and dealt with severely? I realize that's a lot milder than murder but you don't play games with patients and it would be a huge red flag about someone's mental health and professionalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Definitely true, but nonetheless, pretty scary when they are in positions of life/death power. Nursing is among the least likely career to attract psychopaths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 16, 2014 Author Share Posted October 16, 2014 Nursing is among the least likely career to attract psychopaths. I can't think of a single person from my high school who planned to head into nursing that I'd worry about psychopathically. There are a few I'd get concerned about if they have to do calculations (math), but none due to something like this. Perhaps that's why the headline caught my eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Strawberry Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 What I don't get is that if colleagues knew that she deliberately gave laxatives to her patients before the end of shift to mess with the next shift's nurses, why that wasn't reported and dealt with severely? I realize that's a lot milder than murder but you don't play games with patients and it would be a huge red flag about someone's mental health and professionalism. Either the orders were on file to give a laxative and she timed them to her advantage (and possibly upped their dosage without anyone's knowledge), or she slipped them to the patients illegally, and the staff only suspects she did this. Stool softeners are one of the most commonly prescribed drugs in a hospital. Almost everyone gets one. They are given once a day. I would guess she just chose an inconvenient time to give them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shage Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Nursing is among the least likely career to attract psychopaths. I have yet to see a scientific study on psychopathy and careers that did not have severe sampling problems. Maybe there is one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I have yet to see a scientific study on psychopathy and careers that did not have severe sampling problems. Maybe there is one? Dunno. I suspect researching psychopathy as a morally neutral neurological topic is probably a fairly new concept. Research takes time, we're just in the infancy stage of the field of neurology, not to mention exploring the biology that explains socially abhorrent behaviors. Much of our attention as a society has been to seek justice (revenge), rather than seek understanding with regards to this kind of behavior. It wasn't long ago these things would have been simply attributed to sin, bad parenting, or bad breeding, and people would go about their day as if that settled it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shage Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Dunno. I suspect researching psychopathy as a morally neutral neurological topic is probably a fairly new concept. Research takes time, we're just in the infancy stage of the field of neurology, not to mention exploring the biology that explains socially abhorrent behaviors. Much of our attention as a society has been to seek justice (revenge), rather than seek understanding with regards to this kind of behavior. It wasn't long ago these things would have been simply attributed to sin, bad parenting, or bad breeding, and people would go about their day as if that settled it. As a construct, the research goes back about 30 years. There are plenty of recent books and blog posts and media about "everyday" psychopaths but much of the science behind the recent media blitzes is pretty shoddy. The sampling issues for the base rates is hugely problematic. I am simply pointing out that I don't think the statement "Nursing is one of the careers least likely to attract psychopaths" is particularly meaningful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 16, 2014 Author Share Posted October 16, 2014 I am simply pointing out that I don't think the statement "Nursing is one of the careers least likely to attract psychopaths" is particularly meaningful. Uh, thanks? ;) Someone always has to trudge out the facts... :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Dunno. I suspect researching psychopathy as a morally neutral neurological topic is probably a fairly new concept. Research takes time, we're just in the infancy stage of the field of neurology, not to mention exploring the biology that explains socially abhorrent behaviors. Much of our attention as a society has been to seek justice (revenge), rather than seek understanding with regards to this kind of behavior. It wasn't long ago these things would have been simply attributed to sin, bad parenting, or bad breeding, and people would go about their day as if that settled it. With the right therapy, some day people might be able to improve their capacity to be more empathetic. Here is a recent study from Brazil that is interesting. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/05/140521180016.htm Dan Goleman writes about how a sociopath's brain is different from others in his book Focus. Very interesting for anyone who wants to read about it. Here's a quote: Instead of registering emotion in their brain's limbic centers, sociopaths show activity in the frontal areas, particularly the language centers. They tell themselves about emotions, but do not feel them directly as other people do; instead of a normal bottom-up emotional reaction, sociopaths "feel" top-down." Bottom-up is the workings of the lower-brain and top-up refers to the activity that is mostly located within the neocortex. They operate in different ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shage Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 With the right therapy, some day people might be able to improve their capacity to be more empathetic. Here is a recent study from Brazil that is interesting. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/05/140521180016.htm The fact that people high on psychopathic traits could be induced or trained to empathize is not particularly new. Well, the fMRI neuroimaging piece of it is new. But is has been known for several decades that it is possible to focus empathy in certain situations. The broader issue is whether the capacity to empathize is then used by such individuals when put in different situations. That's always the million dollar question. Does it generalize? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 The fact that people high on psychopathic traits could be induced or trained to empathize is not particularly new. Well, the fMRI neuroimaging piece of it is new. But is has been known for several decades that it is possible to focus empathy in certain situations. The broader issue is whether the capacity to empathize is then used by such individuals when put in different situations. That's always the million dollar question. Does it generalize? Yes, I'm trying to point out that the results of the fMRI are new and show change in the neural activity, and that then, it might be possible to create a type of therapy that would be more effective. The study was done recently and I do not know of anything that's been done to answer your last question. Maybe down the road…? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 16, 2014 Author Share Posted October 16, 2014 The fact that people high on psychopathic traits could be induced or trained to empathize is not particularly new. Well, the fMRI neuroimaging piece of it is new. But is has been known for several decades that it is possible to focus empathy in certain situations. The broader issue is whether the capacity to empathize is then used by such individuals when put in different situations. That's always the million dollar question. Does it generalize? Even if it generalizes, isn't this merely something that can be done to help people after it's discovered? I'm not sure there's any way to stop a psychopath before they "become active," is there? When does the switch turn on - when does the nurse/doctor (in these types of cases) discover they can truly use their knowledge to kill rather than to heal? It's not even really the same as "mercy" killing when it's merely due to annoying patients and/or relatives IMO. Or are folks suggesting that all teens/young adults be evaluated? That would seem a bit extreme to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Even if it generalizes, isn't this merely something that can be done to help people after it's discovered? I'm not sure there's any way to stop a psychopath before they "become active," is there? When does the switch turn on - when does the nurse/doctor (in these types of cases) discover they can truly use their knowledge to kill rather than to heal? It's not even really the same as "mercy" killing when it's merely due to annoying patients and/or relatives IMO. Or are folks suggesting that all teens/young adults be evaluated? That would seem a bit extreme to me. It's too early to say what could be done but evaluations might not be necessary. Preventive therapies might be used. In this case, I'm thinking of some sort of mindfulness therapy like a tweaked version of the Kindness Curriculum that's being studied in Madison. Before doing anything, though, scientists would have to figure out what helps. To give you an idea of a similar preventive program, our school district recently began using a type of mindfulness to help prevent depression and anxiety in teens (also available to parents). No one is evaluated. It's largely based on the work of Richard Davidson and colleagues. England has a similar program that's used in some schools, too, called .b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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