Tell me about your Latin centered L.A. program.

[Slache]

This is what I picture:

 

K-2 Phonics

3-12 Latin, Writing, Literature

 

That's it.

[chiguirre]

IME, the Latin programs that are easy enough for a 3rd grader don't cover much grammar and once you hit high school level Latin (Henley, Jenney, Wheelock) you need a strong base in English grammar in order to understand the explanations. I'd highly recommend doing a year or two of Michael Clay Thompson materials (particularly Town and Voyage levels) before starting Latin. You won't miss much Latin since the elementary materials only cover a portion of first year Latin and you'll have much better understanding of parts of speech, parts of the sentence, phrases and clauses. You'll also have a nice introduction to Latin roots and an interesting, light introduction to Roman history. I bumbled onto this path with Trinqueta, but it's worked out well for her. We used MCT materials for grades 3, 4 and 5 and did LC 1 over a summer before starting First Form Latin 1 in 5th grade. This year T is doing Latin 1 at Landry Academy using Jenney's Latin and it's gone very smoothly so far. We're planning to continue through AP Latin.

[Ethel Mertz]

What about spelling, vocabulary, and handwriting? I also think you need a stronger base in grammar; the study of Latin will strengthen that base in English grammar.

 

This is what we've done:

 

First Language Lessons starting in 2nd.

 

Song School Latin starting in 2nd. We jumped around with Latin curricula after SSL and are now using CAP materials (in 6th grade).

 

Latin will help the vocabulary, but we are also using Vocabulary from the Classical Roots.

 

We used All About Spelling (AAS) for a couple of years (this fits well with phonics). Now we are using Spelling Workout. For Grammar, we're using IEW's Fix It.

IME, the Latin programs that are easy enough for a 3rd grader don't cover much grammar and once you hit high school level Latin (Henley, Jenney, Wheelock) you need a strong base in English grammar in order to understand the explanations. I'd highly recommend doing a year or two of Michael Clay Thompson materials (particularly Town and Voyage levels) before starting Latin. You won't miss much Latin since the elementary materials only cover a portion of first year Latin and you'll have much better understanding of parts of speech, parts of the sentence, phrases and clauses. You'll also have a nice introduction to Latin roots and an interesting, light introduction to Roman history. I bumbled onto this path with Trinqueta, but it's worked out well for her. We used MCT materials for grades 3, 4 and 5 and did LC 1 over a summer before starting First Form Latin 1 in 5th grade. This year T is doing Latin 1 at Landry Academy using Jenney's Latin and it's gone very smoothly so far. We're planning to continue through AP Latin.

 

I like the above so much that I had to also reply.  While it is adorable to see the littles chanting away to some aural Latin program, I'm not sure there's much value there.  I know that it is tempting to want to have a slow and gentle start in 3rd grade or so, leading to years upon years of slow and gentle preparation, but that really doesn't lead to much of an advantage when it comes to hunkering down and doing a serious Latin program.  Four or five years of these programs all together may cover not even a single year of high school Latin, so it's not like they get a head start.   Indeed, it can backfire, and it can burn kids out on languages before they've learned much of anything.  I like what the Lukeion folks have to say, and they know way more than I do:

 

 

[From lukeion.org]

 

There are many programs now available for younger students. In our experience, however, these programs demand a lot of busy work but deliver very little in the way of learning the functional nuts-and-bolts of Classical languages. Students are not generally prepared to master these languages until they have reached the logic stage. You will accomplish much more in a fraction of the time if you wait until your student is 12 to 15 before you start formal instruction in Latin and Greek. Better still, waiting to start these logic based languages may mean your student will enjoy them more.

 

 

I think that this time is better spent learning a modern spoken language, as the littles can easier hear and produce the sounds from their non-native language, which is much harder to do when they are older.

[Slache]

What about spelling, vocabulary, and handwriting? I also think you need a stronger base in grammar; the study of Latin will strengthen that base in English grammar.

 

Spelling and handwriting should be covered through phonics and grammar through Latin. I've seen people take this simpler approach to Language Arts, but I don't know how it actually pans out.

 

I've seen several neat ideas posted on the internet, like not teaching formal math other than basic arithmetic until the 6th grade because their brains are more mature and can process it. Supposedly they can catch it all up in one year without all of the hassle and frustration of teaching fractions to a second grader.

 

Both the Latin centered L. A. concept and the late math concept intrigue me, but what happens then you have a high schooler who can't identify adverbs and a 7th grader who can't do long division? The Latin centered L. A. is something I'm interested in actually doing, so I'm here. : )

[librarymama]

We are doing both grammar and Latin. Just reviewing a few elementary programs leads me to believe they aren't meaty enough to include enough grammar.

 

That said, Tolkien and many others learned Latin at a very young age, and I strongly disagree that languages should not be introduced until the logic stage. Maybe the way we introduce Latin today is light, but that doesn't mean there is no value in it.

[chiguirre]

Spelling and handwriting should be covered through phonics and grammar through Latin. I've seen people take this simpler approach to Language Arts, but I don't know how it actually pans out.

 

I've seen several neat ideas posted on the internet, like not teaching formal math other than basic arithmetic until the 6th grade because their brains are more mature and can process it. Supposedly they can catch it all up in one year without all of the hassle and frustration of teaching fractions to a second grader.

 

Both the Latin centered L. A. concept and the late math concept intrigue me, but what happens then you have a high schooler who can't identify adverbs and a 7th grader who can't do long division? The Latin centered L. A. is something I'm interested in actually doing, so I'm here. : )

About math, I've seen that advice but it depends on the child. Some kids will understand much faster than that. It's not uncommon for a mathy kid to be ready to start algebra in 6th or 7th grade. If you wait until that age to start fractions, decimals and percents, you'll be holding them back quite a lot. It would be a slog to cover and internalize all those topics in time to start algebra in 8th grade. You could do algebra in 9th, but you won't have much margin to review or hang out on tougher topics and still get through calculus.

 

The fractions that most programs teach in 2nd grade are simple introductions and my kids all loved cutting the pizza or pie or apple into 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 etc. Even GW thinks that's fun. We used SM but other programs that I've seen are similar. So, kids go from cutting things into fractions to adding like fractions to making equivalent fractions to adding mixed numbers. Then they learn multiplication. Then, in 6th grade (which is a bit late compared to US programs) they tackle division. But, they don't just show the practical algorithm, they demonstrate it several times and really explain what you're doing when you flip the denominator and multiply.

 

As for LA, you can cover spelling and hwing through phonics and grammar through Latin. However, unless you buy Phonics Road to Reading and Latin Road to English Grammar, it will be a lot of planning and pulling things together for you. I've never used those curricula, so I don't know how thorough they are. If you post specifically about them, you might get detailed reviews. If no one has actually used them long term, that also tells you something.

[Slache]

About math, I've seen that advice but it depends on the child. Some kids will understand much faster than that. It's not uncommon for a mathy kid to be ready to start algebra in 6th or 7th grade. If you wait until that age to start fractions, decimals and percents, you'll be holding them back quite a lot. It would be a slog to cover and internalize all those topics in time to start algebra in 8th grade. You could do algebra in 9th, but you won't have much margin to review or hang out on tougher topics and still get through calculus.

 

The fractions that most programs teach in 2nd grade are simple introductions and my kids all loved cutting the pizza or pie or apple into 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 etc. Even GW thinks that's fun. We used SM but other programs that I've seen are similar. So, kids go from cutting things into fractions to adding like fractions to making equivalent fractions to adding mixed numbers. Then they learn multiplication. Then, in 6th grade (which is a bit late compared to US programs) they tackle division. But, they don't just show the practical algorithm, they demonstrate it several times and really explain what you're doing when you flip the denominator and multiply.

 

As for LA, you can cover spelling and hwing through phonics and grammar through Latin. However, unless you buy Phonics Road to Reading and Latin Road to English Grammar, it will be a lot of planning and pulling things together for you. I've never used those curricula, so I don't know how thorough they are. If you post specifically about them, you might get detailed reviews. If no one has actually used them long term, that also tells you something.

 

I'm very much opposed to beginning math so late.

 

I was thinking SWR followed by The Latin Road, but wanted to know what others have done.

[Chelli]

IME, the Latin programs that are easy enough for a 3rd grader don't cover much grammar and once you hit high school level Latin (Henley, Jenney, Wheelock) you need a strong base in English grammar in order to understand the explanations. I'd highly recommend doing a year or two of Michael Clay Thompson materials (particularly Town and Voyage levels) before starting Latin. You won't miss much Latin since the elementary materials only cover a portion of first year Latin and you'll have much better understanding of parts of speech, parts of the sentence, phrases and clauses. You'll also have a nice introduction to Latin roots and an interesting, light introduction to Roman history. I bumbled onto this path with Trinqueta, but it's worked out well for her. We used MCT materials for grades 3, 4 and 5 and did LC 1 over a summer before starting First Form Latin 1 in 5th grade. This year T is doing Latin 1 at Landry Academy using Jenney's Latin and it's gone very smoothly so far. We're planning to continue through AP Latin.

 

I'm so glad to see you say this. It is my exact plan with grammar and Latin. Thank you!

[brehon]

Slache,

 

Have you read Andrew Campbell's Latin Centered Curriculum? There are 2 editions and I think either one will give you a good overview of the information you're looking for.

 

My kids start Latin around 8-9 years old. My 13 year old is now able to read and translate passages from classical authors (e.g., some Caesar, Virgil, etc). We use Lively Latin BB 1 and 2 for the kids which includes grammar (English and Latin), Roman history, word roots, etc. It is true, I think, that many Latin programs for younger kids are more exposure, light, and fun oriented and the kids will probably not either learn or retain much.  

 

We also begin Classical Writing around this age which also helps with grammar in context of writing. 

 

There are myriad ways to accomplish what I think you're wanting and I think a good place to start would be to read widely on the different methods (assuming you haven't already  :001_smile: ). 

 

I'll also add that we don't follow LCC slavishly at all. However, we use what works for our kids and so far (3 kids studying Latin [9 - 13 years old] with 3 younger sibs) it has worked well. I think meeting your kids where they're at will be your best guide for accomplishing your goals.

[Slache]

Have you read Andrew Campbell's Latin Centered Curriculum? There are 2 editions and I think either one will give you a good overview of the information you're looking for.

 

Yes. I read it once in about two days, but I need to buy it. I didn't like the idea of so little. I really like the idea of morning time as a family with Bible, Virtues, History, Geography, Science, Politics, Shakespeare, Fairy Tales, Plutarch, etc.

 

I do like the idea of such a simple L. A. program, but I'd like to know what that looks like in actual practice.

[brehon]

Yes. I read it once in about two days, but I need to buy it. I didn't like the idea of so little. I really like the idea of morning time as a family with Bible, Virtues, History, Geography, Science, Politics, Shakespeare, Fairy Tales, Plutarch, etc.

 

I do like the idea of such a simple L. A. program, but I'd like to know what that looks like in actual practice.

 

Ha! Based on the amount of time each of my kids spends on their work it's not a little amount of time.  :rofl:  Of course, attitudes play into this as well (I have pre-teens and a teen as well as youngers).

 

So, as I mentioned my kids start CW Aesop around 8-9 years old. This program serves as our writing and grammar program. 

We use AAS for spelling which takes about 15 minutes per session. (I have kids combined on 2 different levels.)

Literature - we've mainly been using MP's lit studies which varies between 10 - 45 minutes depending on the kiddo (younger kids take much less time than older kids and we don't limit ourselves to the basic vocab/comprehension questions). 

 

The above is our L.A. studies

 

For us history, science, geography, etc are content areas and the kids do them once per week. (Science may be twice per week; again it depends on the ages). We also incorporate writing skills into the content areas very gradually.

 

Skills areas include Latin, Greek (for my 13 yo), math, spelling, and CW and are completed every day. 

 

Does this give you any ideas? Of course, you can structure you day in whatever way works best for your family. 

[Slache]

Ha! Based on the amount of time each of my kids spends on their work it's not a little amount of time.  :rofl:  Of course, attitudes play into this as well (I have pre-teens and a teen as well as youngers).

 

So, as I mentioned my kids start CW Aesop around 8-9 years old. This program serves as our writing and grammar program. 

We use AAS for spelling which takes about 15 minutes per session. (I have kids combined on 2 different levels.)

Literature - we've mainly been using MP's lit studies which varies between 10 - 45 minutes depending on the kiddo (younger kids take much less time than older kids and we don't limit ourselves to the basic vocab/comprehension questions). 

 

The above is our L.A. studies

 

For us history, science, geography, etc are content areas and the kids do them once per week. (Science may be twice per week; again it depends on the ages). We also incorporate writing skills into the content areas very gradually.

 

Skills areas include Latin, Greek (for my 13 yo), math, spelling, and CW and are completed every day. 

 

Does this give you any ideas? Of course, you can structure you day in whatever way works best for your family.

Oh, I know. I sort of imagine Bible, phonics or Latin, Greek, music and math every day, Writing and Literature 3-5 days a week as needed, Social Studies, Science and Art twice a week and Shakespeare, Plutarch, poetry, fairy tales, etc. once a week to once every two weeks.

 

While I love the idea of all of us sitting in the forest reading poetry and sipping sparkling apple cider while fairies braid our hair I just don't think it's feasible for most families, especially those pursuing a classical education.

 

Thank you for reply.

[Reefgazer]

I don't see why Latin *centered* means to abandon math and other useful instruction.  To me it means central to the home, not that everything not directly language-related be abandoned.

Spelling and handwriting should be covered through phonics and grammar through Latin. I've seen people take this simpler approach to Language Arts, but I don't know how it actually pans out.

 

I've seen several neat ideas posted on the internet, like not teaching formal math other than basic arithmetic until the 6th grade because their brains are more mature and can process it. Supposedly they can catch it all up in one year without all of the hassle and frustration of teaching fractions to a second grader.

 

Both the Latin centered L. A. concept and the late math concept intrigue me, but what happens then you have a high schooler who can't identify adverbs and a 7th grader who can't do long division? The Latin centered L. A. is something I'm interested in actually doing, so I'm here. : )

 

[Slache]

I don't see why Latin *centered* means to abandon math and other useful instruction.  To me it means central to the home, not that everything not directly language-related be abandoned.

 

The two aren't related. I was just bring up different lines of thinking that I've come across that I find interesting.