pjssully Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Hi, I am trying to decide math for my 12 year old boys. I have two or three that I am deciding about and wondering if someone could do a comparison of these for me. My oldest used Videotext Algebra and I am not sure I want to do the same with my boys. The two that I am thinking about are Prealgebra by Doliciani, or Lial's prealgebra. I have also thought about Saxon 8/7, and would love any thoughts on this curriculum as well. I really need to decide soon as we will be moving so I need to get on with the planning!!! than ks so very much!! pm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Sounds like three great options from what I've read here. We used Saxon 8/7 and found it to be excellent prep for algebra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 It may help people to give relevant insight if you share what they've done so far and how they did with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I believe there was an extensive thread on pre-algebra choices on the middle school board awhile back. You might search there. If I get a chance I'll post a link later, but I can't do it at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Maybe Debbie means this one? http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/342798-pre-algebra-fence-straddlers-master-thread/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I have also thought about Saxon 8/7, and would love any thoughts on this curriculum as well. You would want to give your dc the placement test, rather than just choosing one. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjssully Posted July 26, 2014 Author Share Posted July 26, 2014 Hi, Thanks for everyone who responded and sorry for the lack of details. One of the twins did Abeka books and while he started out liking it, he has now HATED every math lesson or page that is done. He is so ready to be done with that book. the other twin did Math u See because he didn't like the constant review of material. I guess that is called the mastery approach, but it was what he needed at the time. I would really like them to do the same course, so I don't have three maths going (i have an older daughter) and since they are the same age, and really pretty close is intelligent, they "should" be able to use the same book. As a side note, we will be moving in september, beginning of our year, so I do need something pretty open and go for me. We will be doing school amongst boxes, packing, driving, and moving. Thanks again!! pm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkT Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 The two that I am thinking about are Prealgebra by Doliciani, or Lial's prealgebra. you will get more responses on the middle school forum since this topic is a better fit there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 How far did they get in Abeka and MUS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjssully Posted July 26, 2014 Author Share Posted July 26, 2014 I haven't gotten ANY responses on the middle school forum. Seems lots of people are into AOPS or I think that is what it is. I looked at that and it would not fit us. In Math u See he is through all books and is ready for the pre algebra book. In Abeka he got through book 6 I think. It seems that not many people are using the "older" type of books, so maybe i am just the odd one out here?! Thanks anyway for all the comments!! pm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 There's nothing wrong with any of the options you've listed, really. Dolciani and Lial are traditional and solid courses. Saxon is more incremental but is still a solid course. There are no placement tests that I'm aware of for the first two, but I would start by giving the Saxon placement test since that's one you're considering. If they don't place into 8/7, pre-algebra may be a bit of a stretch this year. I notice that in the Abeka scope and sequence he wouldn't be doing pre-algebra until after completing Basic Math, right? If they do place into 8/7, I don't think any one of the three will be *bad*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Have you looked at horizons? They have a very solid pre algebra and algebra sequence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 I'm familiar with Abeka - since we use it. My eldest did Abeka 6 & skipped right into Pre-Algebra without a problem. Abeka usually recommends that strong students do 6, then Basic Math, then skip to Algebra I. We did 6, Pre-Algebra, and she's started Algebra I this summer with no issues. (I don't know why Abeka says to do Basic Math. We haven't used it, so I can't comment on how it compares or doesn't compare to Pre-Algebra. Both have pre-algebra & consumer math in them.) I notice that in the Abeka scope and sequence he wouldn't be doing pre-algebra until after completing Basic Math, right? I think there are some things in Math-U-See's Pre-Algebra level that include things that weren't in the lower levels that many other programs include. But I'm not familiar with MUS other than several families IRL near me use it. There are a ton of threads on Lial's on the Middle School board -- especially using Pre-Algebra vs. using their Basic Math. (BM will give a good overall review before moving to the new material at the end of the book. Pre-A has some review & moves to the new material quicker.) The Master Thread that was linked by idnib has a LOT of good info to wade through. If you want something more hands-off by you, Saxon with some version of the DVD teacher would probably be the way to go. I would caution you that based on your past experience, it is likely that whatever you pick won't work for all of your kids. You'll be able to judge better if you are the one teaching them everyday, which would lead you in the opposite direction of my last sentence. Nice and confusing, eh? :lol: I agree with kiana that none of your three choices would be "bad." You might find that one of the kids might need more one-on-one help with certain topics that are brand new because their previous program didn't cover them. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dereksurfs Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 I've got two of the three books - Dolciani and Lials. We never used Saxon. Based upon reviews and our goals I didn't really desire to go down that path. Though I know it works great for some. All of these are really *very* different approaches in many ways from presentation style, format, spiral vs. mastery, etc... It's hard to say which one will be better for you. I think you really need to consider each of them in light of your individual boys. Did mastery work ok for the one using MUS? If so then why move toward Saxon spiral? There are tons of threads of why leaving Saxon was the best decision a family made and others on how well Saxon is working. I would use the search feature for that one. Saxon vs. Dolciani, Saxon vs. Lials, etc... My opinion on the two I own: Dolciani and Lials are both very affordable on the used market and can usually be found for pennies on the dollar. So I recommend looking for copies. You can then have them on hand to directly compare and use as resources when you need to present something from another perspective. After purchasing Lials and comparing it to many other options I simply did not like the layout and presentation at all. The pages are cluttered with too many distractors and the overall format looks pointlessly busy. We came from MUS as well (Alpha thru Pre-A) which was much cleaner in presentation and easier to follow without all of that modern fluff. Some like that. We just don't care for it at all in a math text. Dolciani may be the only text that the majority of the hive agree upon as a really solid Pre-A textbook for the majority of students. The presentation and teaching style are excellent. It covers all the main concepts well and does it in a very concise way. The only potential downside I could see is that there is not a lot of hand holding beyond the classic text itself. So it *may* require more of the teacher's time explaining concepts depending on the student's needs. The reason I didn't use it, even though I like the text, has more to do with other options I found to be better overall packages for our family. I like Derek Owens and Tablet Class which both provide excellent lectures that accompany the math problems and text. Having math instructors doing the heavy lifting in explaining these algebraic concepts was worth the extra cost. They are both relatively affordable for classes. In fact TC goes on sale at times for $50/year. In the end TabletClass was a great improvement over MUS Pre-A which we started with. I will say that MUS is a very easy program in comparison to most others. So there will be a ramping up of effort required compared to the work level and challenge your child may be used to. Also MUS does leave a few things out which are expected with most Pre-A programs like working with negative numbers and the number line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 In Math u See he is through all books and is ready for the pre algebra book. In that case, she should do MUS Pre-Algebra. MUS has an unusual scope and sequence that is really completed after Pre-Algebra. Once you have done Pre-Algebra, start looking for the algebra program of your dreams :). We used MUS and hung on into Algebra. Both my kids used their Geometry. However, I really dislike Algebra and we switched to using Lial's. It was an easy switch from MUS to Lial's, but I think the best time to make the switch is after Pre-Algebra. ETA: MUS Pre-Algebra is a quick level. If you finish early, you could let her test her way through Lial's Pre-Algebra and do any chapters she struggles with. There are some things in there she won't have covered, but nothing that won't be covered again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erin Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 My 12 year old did Saxon 8/7. Technically considered an 8th grade text, with pre-algebra, if I'm not mistaken...Rather than a strictly pre-algebra text. He had no trouble slipping into Algebra at 13. Take the placement test (free online) to make sure he'll be in that level. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 My 12 year old did Saxon 8/7. Technically considered an 8th grade text, with pre-algebra, if I'm not mistaken...Rather than a strictly pre-algebra text. He had no trouble slipping into Algebra at 13. Take the placement test (free online) to make sure he'll be in that level. :) Technically, it's just considered...pre-algebra. :-) "Pre-algebra" is a relatively new thing in math. Back in the day, we just did math until we got to algebra. I had business math in the 9th grade, algebra in the 10th. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erin Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 I thought Algebra 1/2 was the one that was considered pre-algebra, and 8/7 was considered 8th grade with pre-algebra... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 I thought Algebra 1/2 was the one that was considered pre-algebra, and 8/7 was considered 8th grade with pre-algebra... They are both pre-algebra. It's just that Algebra 1/2 has been converted (with the newer scope and sequence) into more of a pre-algebra II, for those who need more practice before algebra I. ETA: Any book that covers a sufficient scope and sequence of arithmetic for an average student to begin algebra afterwards is pre-algebra whether or not it is labeled as such. For some specific examples, a student who has understood the material should be able to move from Saxon 8/7 or Lial's BCM into algebra. One reason people are concerned about pre-algebra is that pre-algebra and algebra are very frequently a good time to change publishers. Changing during the arithmetic sequence can result in holes and also in excessive repetition as topics are taught in different times and places during the arithmetic sequence. It would be like taking algebra 1, first semester with one publisher and algebra 1, second semester with another. Pre-algebra, however, being the last year of the arithmetic sequence, tends to review everything taught before, and so tends to be a good time to change. Just before algebra 1 is another good time to change, as publishers tend to teach everything from scratch in algebra 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erin Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Exactly. 8/7 is just "8th grade math." (I have a theory that "with pre algebra" is on the cover for the parents who think that kids NEED a pre-algebra course before Algebra) Algebra 1/2, on the other hand, is "Pre Algebra", for the transition year that many kids need between "8th grade math" and Algebra. They are both pre-algebra. It's just that Algebra 1/2 has been converted (with the newer scope and sequence) into more of a pre-algebra II, for those who need more practice before algebra I. ETA: Any book that covers a sufficient scope and sequence of arithmetic for an average student to begin algebra afterwards is pre-algebra whether or not it is labeled as such. For some specific examples, a student who has understood the material should be able to move from Saxon 8/7 or Lial's BCM into algebra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Exactly. 8/7 is just "8th grade math." (I have a theory that "with pre algebra" is on the cover for the parents who think that kids NEED a pre-algebra course before Algebra) Algebra 1/2, on the other hand, is "Pre Algebra", for the transition year that many kids need between "8th grade math" and Algebra. Well, yes and no. It is on the cover because pre-algebra is now a middle school arithmetic course to prepare for algebra. Times change, and course names change. Pre-algebra is not even taught in many high schools now -- students who are probably not going to be successful are instead put in "algebra with support" or a two-year algebra 1 class. Many middle schools no longer have "math 7" or "math 8" and instead have course names like "pre-algebra 1" "pre-algebra 2" etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erin Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Right. But again, that's my point. Plain old 8th grade math is basically, and has always been, a pre-algebra class. It doesn't matter what the labels are, the content has remained essentially the same. (But a lot of people don't realize that, so think they need a specific "pre algebra" class.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I get your point. In school I took pre-alg, algebra, geometry, alg2/trig and the next step was calc. Now its done pre alg, alg, geometry, alg2, precalc (which is trig)... Ya. Alg 2/trig was only enough to prepare the best students for calculus -- many needed another preparatory year. I've gone through Foerster's alg 2/trig and if thoroughly understood, it would be plenty sufficient for calc -- but most students won't be ready after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dereksurfs Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Well, yes and no. It is on the cover because pre-algebra is now a middle school arithmetic course to prepare for algebra. Times change, and course names change. Pre-algebra is not even taught in many high schools now -- students who are probably not going to be successful are instead put in "algebra with support" or a two-year algebra 1 class. Many middle schools no longer have "math 7" or "math 8" and instead have course names like "pre-algebra 1" "pre-algebra 2" etc. A lot of this discussion really boils down to semantics when people talk about needing Pre-Algebra vs.not. When in reality most are talking about the same things. The way I view it is you have to go back to the fundamental purpose of Pre-Algebra which is two-fold: 1. Review primary mathematics 2. Introduce Algebraic concepts As long as these two things occur you can call it Mickey Mouse or anything else. I see the problem arising when these do not occur and one assumes that a child is ready to jump right into algebra when he/she clearly is not. As a result many children struggle with Algebra more than any other math course. On the other hand if following a particular elementary program like MM, SM, Saxon, etc... there is a lead up to Algebra. So again the name doesn't matter as long as that body of work is covered. Some just happen to call it Pre-Algebra vs. 8th grade math. One last point is that Pre-Algebra programs are not created equal and can vary wildly from very basic (e.g. MUS) to very challenging (e.g. AoPS). So that is where a parent/teacher can tailor the amount of review vs. algebraic content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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