Help me off the fence: Math

[Critterfixer]

I've been going back and forth on Math for probably the last four months now and I've got to come to a conclusion I can live with.

Here's the deal.

 

My boys did Saxon 5/4 last year. It was a slog. There were tears. They took so long to get through a lesson that we fell behind in formal writing instruction. They hated it. I hated teaching it.

I suspect that I placed them too high, and that they would have done better repeating third grade math, maybe Intermediate 3, but in my pride I felt they would be too bored, and that they could handle 5/4.

They did handle it, but badly. Their standardized test scores were much, much better for math this year than last, and while they don't care for Saxon, I have seen a great deal of improvement in their math skills and especially in their problem solving. 

 

So, here's the deal. I think I want them to repeat 5/4 this year. They are going into fifth grade, but they are not solid at long division, fractions are still tough for them, and decimals are something of a challenge, depending on the day. I took a look at CLE, and I'm just not impressed. I think Saxon does a better job of giving instruction to the student. I looked at the word problems in particular, and I like Saxon better. 

 

So this may be a post to tell me to quit being such a waffle-head and just repeat 5/4 and be happy. But I'd like to hear from folks who have gone on to 6/5 and whether I ought to be prepared to move up, or to plan for covering additional material for fifth grade. I have quite a bit of MM dark blue books that I can print out for focused work, or for a break from Saxon. I just don't feel I should move on in Saxon until they are more confident.

 

It may be that Saxon just isn't that great of a program for us, but frankly, I don't think any of us will be delighted with a new math program if it stood up and danced for us. And they really do retain fairly well with it.

[Aiden]

My immediate concern with having them repeat the same thing they just did (and hated) ... are you telling them they failed math this year? Because whether you say it in words or not, by having them repeat the same exact thing again, you're teling them they failed math this year. Even if it's your fault for making them do something that was too advanced for them at that time, and they're more ready for it now, you're still telling them that they did not do an adequate job at the program you thought they could do and forced them to continue despite their most adamant protests.

 

Would it be possible to review that material, but using the MM books and/or another curriculum for a year,  then switch to Saxon when they're ready to progress? I just can't imagine a child saying, "Oh, so I failed at this last year, but sure, I'll do it again, and I won't let it sour me on math any more than I would if I hadn't just proven that this is too much for me." But maybe your boys will be ok with it, especially if you tell them that the reason it was so hard for them last year is that it actually *is* 5th grade work (my understanding is that Saxon 5/4 is for 5th graders and advanced 4th graders, but not for your average 4th grade math student, though I may be wrong on that), and you underestimated how difficult the work would be, and it isn't their fault they weren't ready for it yet ... this is a tough situation. I'm not sure what I would do.

[Critterfixer]

It is supposed to be for average to advanced fourth graders and behind fifth graders.

No, I haven't told them they failed anything. If I had to put a grade on it, I'd probably give them both C's. Thankfully, I don't have to do that.

Believe me, the thought of asking them to repeat something isn't one I'm relishing. 

 

What I don't want to happen is what happened this year. They sailed through lessons 1-40 in Saxon 5/4 with smiles and "This is so easy, Mom!" Well, it was, because it was review. Around half-way through the book, it got tough and they got sour. It was doable, but like a lot of hard things, doable takes a lot more time. Breaking it into two math sessions made a huge difference, but the time commitment is just more than I can take. Two hours a day...just tough. I don't want to get in the same situation with 6/5--easy for the first 50 lessons and then down we go again.

 

As for what they would like, and I did get their input after they balked heavily over the CLE placement tests (LOOONG!), they have requested fifteen problems a day, to have the speed drills (which they love), and not long division. (Sorry, guys, but long division is non-negotiable).

They like the MM pages. But judging from the fraction section on the CLE placement test, they don't really retain all that well with MM. I think it is just short on practice.

[stupidusername]

Critterfixer: I think your plan is sound, except you can probably skip the first 20-30 lessons.

[Aiden]

Based on what you said about the first part being easy for them ... any possibility of repeating just the second half, where it got hard? Fill in the rest of the year with supplemental stuff, or go slowly enough that the second half takes the whole year?

 

I know lots of people don't do school year round, but they do math year round. Would it be possible to follow the pattern of: school year--you do the non-review stuff at half pace; summer--you do the first part of the next year (the review part) at normal pace?

[Critterfixer]

I'm in the year-round school group, but we are taking six weeks off for summer this year. We will be picking up again with summer term right after the fourth of July--so this is why I've got to get off my fence!

So, yes, we have time to do some review, time to do some additional topic stuff (I'd like them to finish up MM Fractions, and work on the Decimals and Measuring books sometime soon.)

 

I hadn't thought much about where I would start in with repeating 5/4, but I think the idea of beginning about thirty lessons in might be about right. They will be coming off a math layoff, so to speak.

[Spring Flower]

I don't have any experience specifically with 5/4 and 6/5, but I am familiar with the Saxon program. As a former middle school math teacher, I feel like they are more or less on track for 4th graders. Saxon seems so repetitive that they will have a big review of things in 6/5. I would press on, personally. I think repeating the entire book again would feel too discouraging. If you are really worried you can do a little math over the summer.

 

I taught fractions and decimals with 7th and 8th grade pre-algebra students and they were FAR from mastery when we started. Some days I wondered if they had ever seen a fraction in their entire lives.  :001_rolleyes:

[Critterfixer]

I did look at the scope and sequence for 6/5 and found that much of the same material was covered. I would assume it is covered in more depth, and with more involved word problems. 

My great worry is that I'll end up stranded again in the middle of 6/5, out of wind, and forced to row the rest of the way like last year.

 

I don't know whether it will be discouraging to repeat at least part of the book for them. For one thing, one of them is already yammering at me about there still being ten lessons to finish in the book. The other thing is that I've often used the same book, same curriculum with them at different levels. We use CW Aesop, and they are used to having the same lesson, just more involved and more to do with it. It certainly has never bothered them to stay on a Latin lesson until we get it, and then to move on. I'm sort of big on repeating things to understand them, and not equating that with having failed something. I don't know if that will help, though.

[stupidusername]

A year ago my son was struggling with 8/7. I moved him all the way back to the middle of 7/6. This was a great decision. He is in 8/7 again, but this time he is doing great.

 

In short, quit being such a waffle-head. Just repeat 5/4 and be happy.   :laugh: 

 

 

[Critterfixer]

OK, I'll quit being such a waffle-head. :tongue_smilie:

[MiMi 4under3]

Saxon seems so repetitive that they will have a big review of things in 6/5. I would press on, personally. I think repeating the entire book again would feel too discouraging. 

 

   :iagree: 

 

 

6/5 will have a giant review of everything covered in 5/4 in the first 30 or so lessons.  I would move on slowly - maybe taking 2 days per lesson.  Or I would spend extra time on the first 30 "review" lessons, supplementing with other material, and doing extra practice from the back of the book - THEN trying to move on at a regular pace.  If DC score less than 80% on any test, back up 5 lessons, or so.

[kiana]

I agree with Aiden, but what do they think of the idea of doing the whole book again?

 

I *definitely* wouldn't do the review sections again, and in general I'd be reluctant to re-start on the same book unless I could get the buy-in from the kids.

[Critterfixer]

Aside from the no long division and 15 problems a day they don't seem to have much of an opinion on math. They'd like fine if they didn't have to do math, but that's not an option. :D I haven't discussed the possibility of repeating this book again with them yet. I felt it better to get some other opinions first.

 

The problem with taking two days a lesson in Saxon is that it puts us WAY over being done in time for testing. Standardized testing is mandatory for us, not only is it mandatory, but it happens at the exact same time every year. Early April. Literally has to be done during a certain time frame, right at the end of March. Slowing down would be lovely, but on a four day week, that really puts you behind. 

Of course, I probably shouldn't worry about that as much, but come February, I know I'm going to be. If 5/4 covers much the same material as 6/5 but has the advantage of being less advanced, and familiar, that would be worth it to me to shore up confidence and improve accuracy. If, however, 6/5 covers a lot of new things that I need to cover in addition to 5/4 I need to know that too. 

Maybe I should get 6/5 to have it handy while we work through 5/4. If I start in the middle, and call that review, it is likely to be seen as such, and not viewed as repeating the whole book again. Then they can move on to 6/5 when they are ready for it.

 

Edit: I "mentioned" the possibility of working through the last half of the book again. The response was mixed. One was concerned that it would be too hard, as it was hard the first time. The other was simply concerned about the number of problems (related to the time needed to do those problems.) They had no concerns over having to do it again outside of those two reasons. The overall opinion seemed to be very philosophically that if they had to do it, well, bring it on. 

 

[StaceyE]

My fifth grade dd went through singapore 4b and 5a by the end of March. I was going to order 5b except that she really hates it. She took placement tests in multiple programs and we settled on CLE. We went with level 500 because, although she understands concepts well, her division skills were still lacking. I'm VERY happy with CLE and how they break new material into little chunks, explain it in very simple terms, and build in lots of review in a way that isn't tedious. It keeps her sharp on past skills without feeling bogged down and moves along with something new each lesson. I skip over some of the problems that I know she is solid on, and she can finish up two lessons in about 30 minutes. She's clipping right along and should be finished with the 500 level before the end of summer. Best of all, she scores at a 90% or better on the unit tests, feels far more confident in math, and we have no more arguments or tears. It wasn't the approach I thought we'd be taking, but it works for her so we're sticking with it for now.

 

You can order just one booklet at a time if you wanted to test out the program for very little money.

[Critterfixer]

I've looked at CLE. I keep looking at CLE.

 

[Farrar]

I guess I'm just not getting something.

 

They did Saxon 5/4 and finished it but aren't solid on the material.  Fine.  Seems normal.  My kids have done many a thing only to emerge needing more work.  

 

So after maybe a slight review, you're going to have them do the same material.  With the same presentation.  In the exact same book.  If it wasn't the best presentation for them to get it the first time, why would it work better the second time?  And even if it was the best one, won't the sense of annoyance at redoing the material or the feeling of stigma attached (even if you work hard on avoiding it) negate the benefits of using the same book?  I just don't understand why you wouldn't switch to a different program to redo the material.  Unless it's the cost.  Is it the cost?

 

Assuming it's not an issue of cost (or, not primarily), then I vote CLE.

[Critterfixer]

Cost isn't a huge issue.

And I'm open to suggestions. If I wasn't waffling I wouldn't be asking.

 

I'd have to reorder Saxon 5/4 anyway. We wore out those books using them because they were so big. So either way I'll have to order things. 

 

One thing that is holding me back is that I really don't like the instruction to the student in CLE. It seems--scanty. I assume that there is more in the teacher's manual, and the boys have specified that they like having me teach the lesson, but they are boys, and their attention wanders. With Saxon, when they got stuck, I could point them back to the text or an example. That seemed to be helpful.

Is there enough of that in CLE? I don't know. From what I've seen of the samples I'm not sure. I'm sure there are suggestions in the teacher's manual, but it's not quite the same as written to the student.

 

[Elisabet1]

If a program is not working, don't use it. You know the saying if it isn't broken, don't fix it. Well, it goes the other way too, if it is broken, fix it. Sounds like you need to try something different. Redoing an entire book you already did will make your children HATE math, hate beyond hate.

 

I am using BJU with one of the children right now and like it. 

[Critterfixer]

I sure don't want them hating math. 

It's funny, this is the one sore spot in what is otherwise a pretty awesome home-school. We are really super-happy with everything else. Even Latin, which is hard!

So I would very much like to fix math, it's just I've been pretty darn bad at fixing it so far, so bear with me.

[kiana]

Oh, if you have to re-order anyway, but you like Saxon -- why not order Intermediate 4 ... have them do that as transition -- then go to 65. That way they wouldn't be working through the same exact book again. Intermediate 4 and 5 can be done in place of 54 and 65.

 

Whichever way you go, though, I'd have them take the tests only on their way through ... and whenever they drop below a solid B (85%) on a test, move back to the lessons covered by that test and start there. This would also let them move on to 65 mid-year if the review helps them consolidate rapidly.

 

With respect to the "it isn't working so fix it" -- OP observed that their test scores went way up this year, even though they struggled and got a C, and thinks it's due to their being misplaced given their background knowledge, rather than Saxon not being a fit. I think she might be right.

[Critterfixer]

There is the sheer number of problems in Saxon. Honestly, I think that got them down more than anything else. When I cut a lesson in half, doing part of it one day, and part the next, there was a lot less grumbling in the ranks. But they keep coming back to that as a limiting factor: they don't want all those problems. 

And I'm fully prepared to concede that point. I don't like grading all those problems either.

 

[StaceyE]

For CLE, I just have an answer key not a teacher's manual and I haven't needed anything more then that so far. I think the reason the instructions are so brief is because they present new information in small chunks. Each lesson starts out with a new concept, a few practice problems, a second new concept and then a few practice problems for that. Next comes the spiral review problems. It's feels very gentle because the new information is chunked into easy to understand bits and the constant review is a scattering of lots of kinds of problems so that you aren't doing 30 of say, long division, all at once but you do get that practice in over the span of a few lessons.

 

I really liked the way long division (something dd was stuck on no matter how many times we went over it) and also fractions. For example: first they are adding like fractions and making equivalent fractions - but not both at the same time. Then they are working on finding multiples of numbers. Once those skills have been practiced through the next few lessons, they begin with adding fractions with unlike denominators but give the common denominator so that the student just has to find the numerator - all this is happening while they are still practicing and getting more proficient at adding like fractions, making equivalent fractions and finding common multiples. Eventually it all comes together and students are adding unlike fractions. And because you're working on and practicing lots of operational math skills all at the same time, it doesn't feel tedious.

 

My DD is actually very mathy in terms of concepts - she tends to get them quickly and needs little instruction plus she has excellent mental math. She can't stand having to do many of the same kind of problem (she's ADHD), but will forget without continual practice. CLE seems to provide exactly what she needs and I can't believe how fast she moves along and how far some of her skills have come in a short amount of time. Good Luck, it seems like math is a challenging curriculum to settle into! We had to play with multiple curriculums before we found that CLE works for her.

[Elisabet1]

Oh, if you have to re-order anyway, but you like Saxon -- why not order Intermediate 4 ... have them do that as transition -- then go to 65. That way they wouldn't be working through the same exact book again. Intermediate 4 and 5 can be done in place of 54 and 65.

 

Whichever way you go, though, I'd have them take the tests only on their way through ... and whenever they drop below a solid B (85%) on a test, move back to the lessons covered by that test and start there. This would also let them move on to 65 mid-year if the review helps them consolidate rapidly.

 

With respect to the "it isn't working so fix it" -- OP observed that their test scores went way up this year, even though they struggled and got a C, and thinks it's due to their being misplaced given their background knowledge, rather than Saxon not being a fit. I think she might be right.

 

 

There is way more to school than test scores. If the children are very unhappy and hating the subject, then it is not working.

[kiana]

There is way more to school than test scores. If the children are very unhappy and hating the subject, then it is not working.

 

Right, but they could easily be hating it because they were in the wrong level to start out with. They seem to be unhappy because of the excessive difficulty more than anything else.

 

[Critterfixer]

Difficulty and length of the lessons seem to be the two sticking points.

 

(And having already admitting to screwing up the levels, and being far too pushy, I accept this math conundrum as my penance.)

 

I should add that the test scores improvement was VERY dramatic. It is hard for me to ignore that. Two grade levels in one year. Very hard to ignore.

[Sara in AZ]

My DD took two years to get through Saxon 5/4 and it was sooooooooo painful for both of us. I've abandoned Saxon altogether for her. It was a huge leap of faith, but this last school year I switched her to Professor B. You could google it and see what you think. She went through levels two and three this year, and I am amazed at her rock solid understanding of long division, fractions, and decimals. It's a no frills, but incredibly thorough program. They are switching it over to a mostly on line program, but I was able to purchase some older hard copies on Amazon. DD still doesn't love math and sometimes fights it (I hate Professor B! This math is so stupid! is scribbled all over her books.) But she understands it, and that's what's important to me. She also did Life of Fred Kidney, Liver, and Minecraft on the side for something lighter. I hope you find something that works for your boys!

[Critterfixer]

Here's what I think we are going to do. They have placement tests for CLE, because that was my go-to if Saxon didn't do a great job with the test scores this year. (It did, but some of that was me doing a lot of whiteboard work and teaching.) They have already said to me that they would strongly prefer that I continue to do that, which I will have to do whether it is CLE or Saxon.

Given that they need review, I will see where they place in CLE and we will start with that this summer. Sometime this fall, we'll take a look at moving to Saxon 6/5, unless I find that we are comfortable with CLE and doing well. That will give them a break, they won't have to re-do 5/4, so I won't have to figure out where I should start in the book, which is hard to do with Saxon anyway. I've got my MM books for focused work on division, fractions, decimals, measuring, etc. If CLE is as fast as everyone says, then they should have time to work through some of the MM during the week as well, which will make me feel better. I'd already planned on additional word problem practice.

 

We'll probably reevaluate around October.

[kiana]

Sounds like a plan, and best of luck!

[Critterfixer]

Thanks. I'm going to need it.

[There'sNoPlaceLikeHome]

We had the same experience with my twins when they switched to Saxon 5/4. My dd didn't even get through it. But, this year my son went on to 6/5 and had an average test score of 85%. His standardized test scores had gone up significantly after 5/4, but this year he scored at the 99% in the math problem solving section! He actually enjoyed math this year and got his work done much more quickly.

We made several changes this year: I stopped making him use the math facts timed tests. (Instead we did online practice.) I stopped making him do the warm-up box and the lesson practice. I had him correct his own daily assignments. All of these were suggestions I read on Art Reed's website for teaching Saxon. They made a huge difference.

 

Also, we use the DIVE instructional videos. You might consider them at least as a back-up to help with lessons they are struggling to understand if you do go back to Saxon. Almost never did my son need to come to me for help with his math this year. The few times he missed a new concept, I discovered that he was distracted during his video. After rewatching it, he got it.

[Critterfixer]

That's good to know.

I was also very impressed at how much my guys improved in their problem solving this year. I think some of that was Saxon, some of it was maturity and some of it may have been that I was up at the whiteboard every day working on it with them. One good thing about Saxon was that I really had to learn how to teach. I must have backed things up to concrete manipulatives, then worked on creating a visual model and then taken it to the abstract level so many times! 

I suspect I'll be doing the same thing with CLE. But maybe I'll have more time to teach and spend less trying to keep morale high, which I think will make everyone a little happier.

[JoJosMom]

FWIW, I found that a combination of MM and CLE was good.  For my DD, the mastery style of MM was awesome, but she needed to have built-in review.  Because both programs were relatively low-cost, I was able to do both.

 

We both hated Saxon.  Hated, hated, HATED Saxon.  Yes, it's a great program and works very well for many students.  Not for us.  Not at all. 

[Critterfixer]

I'm glad to hear that too. Both of them enjoy working through the MM books, but it quickly overwhelmed when I tried to do a full year back in second grade. Total meltdown. That was pretty bad year. 

I don't hate Saxon, and there are a lot of good things about it. But there's something to the idea of stopping a while and just contemplating what you are doing for a while. There's also a lot of truth to moving on to something else and letting an idea perk for a while before spending a lot of time on it. It is a balancing act for sure.

[Critterfixer]

After the CLE testing, I think they have a few more things to relearn than I thought, so the Key to books wouldn't be enough. Oh, well. 

Just goes to prove that standardized tests can lie-because they were actually at or above grade level. Guess my mom-instinct, which said that they were not prepared to go on, was right.

[EmilyGF]

How about using the topical MM booklets over the summer to review what they need help on?

 

I wonder, with long division and fractions, if they have their multiplication facts down cold? If not, thinking through those things could really slow things down and lead to lots of mistakes (if it is mistakes and not understanding problems). Something like xtramath could help with that.

 

Emily

[Critterfixer]

They actually are quite adept with the multiplication facts. It's when they have to carry, and add partial products that they get confused. Same thing with the long division. It's just going to take time and practice. Some of it is rank carelessness, like adding one column, and subtracting the next. 

 

They actually are doing better with the fractions than I thought. 

 

We will be using the MM topical books along with CLE. I was lucky enough to pick up a lot of those when they were on sale. Glad I talked DH into buying them when they were on sale...budget was pretty tight then and it was a stretch, but they sure will be useful.

 

I try to avoid almost anything that requires the computer for math. Online stuff is out. Internet issues, but that's another whine.