Ok Thoroughbred Racing folks - Can California Chrome win the Belmont?

[creekland]

I know there's bound to be more racing folks than just me on here...

 

What predicts the Hive?  Can California Chrome be our first Triple Crown winner since 1978 and Affirmed?

 

I'd love to think so, but I suspect the competition waiting in NY and the deepness of that track could be daunting.

[unsinkable]

I'm not ready to make a prediction yet, :lol: it is so difficult to win all three, plus the Belmont is soooooo long.

 

I also liked Ride on Curlin, coming on strong, with a new jockey. It makes me wonder what he'll do at the Belmont.

[creekland]

I'm not ready to make a prediction yet, :lol:

 

Admittedly, making a prediction exactly 3 weeks from now will be much easier.  ;)

 

I worry about Commanding Curve, Danza, Samratt, and possibly Tonalist... those who skipped the Preakness.

 

[amyco]

I hope so, because I love that horse's story.  I was rooting for him both times...even if he was the favorite! 

 

 

 

[unsinkable]

Admittedly, making a prediction exactly 3 weeks from now will be much easier. ;)

 

I worry about Commanding Curve, Danza, Samratt, and possibly Tonalist... those who skipped the Preakness.

 

Hahaha! I'll tell ya about 645 PM on June 7th...

 

I really want to see how California Chrome recovers and trains in the next few weeks.

[BrookValley.]

While it would be totally awesome to have a triple crown winner--and I really love the horse--if I was betting on it, I'd say no. The Belmont is a very different race than the Derby and Preakness. Also, there will be horses that have trained solely for this kind of race waiting for him.

 

If I had to pick one of the well-knowns from the Derby, I think I'd go with Danza. But I really don't know enough about the other competition to make a legit guess. Regardless, even it's hopeless, I'll be rooting for California Chrome. :) How could you not?

[creekland]

I hope so, because I love that horse's story.  I was rooting for him both times...even if he was the favorite! 

 

Same here!

 

While it would be totally awesome to have a triple crown winner--and I really love the horse--if I was betting on it, I'd say no. The Belmont is a very different race than the Derby and Preakness. Also, there will be horses that have trained solely for this kind of race waiting for him.

 

If I had to pick one of the well-knowns from the Derby, I think I'd go with Danza. But I really don't know enough about the other competition to make a legit guess. Regardless, even it's hopeless, I'll be rooting for California Chrome. :) How could you not?

 

I definitely worry about some of those closers (who were not in the Preakness) in a mile and a half race, but I'm definitely rooting for Chrome.  I saw Secretariat, Seattle Slew, and Affirmed in the 70s and brought my boys up watching the Triple Crown (even if they opted to skip other races).  Many times they've been disappointed.  I'd like to see someone give them a TC winner while we're watching together (two of my three are here watching)!  Chrome has run well in his last two races (and before).  I hope he has another in him, but the track is definitely different in NY.

 

On a side note, one has to REALLY feel sorry for Alydar - the only horse to finish 2nd to the same horse in all three races.  Eliminate Affirmed and he'd have been one of those rare TC winners.  Of course, he made up for it financially at stud, but still, there's something in the actual prestige.

 

Hahaha! I'll tell ya about 645 PM on June 7th...

 

I really want to see how California Chrome recovers and trains in the next few weeks.

 

I say... you take all the fun out of it wanting those silly facts! ;)  (But, of course, I agree with you.  I want to see how he trains at Belmont.)

[Chris in VA]

I'm not sure. I, too, watched all the races in the 70's and 80's!

 

A tip off that his trainer/owners may not think he can do it--the interview with (oh gosh, was it the trainer or the owner?) one of them where he was hesitant--he said something like Let's see how he recovers. Didn't sound confident.

 

But I hope so!! I hope he goes to the front with 300 yards left and it looks like he's going to win, and then up come the closers, and that game little horse HOLDS ON and wins by a nose!

 

(ahem--excuse me, too many Black Stallion books...)

[Kathryn]

I'm not sure. I, too, watched all the races in the 70's and 80's!

 

A tip off that his trainer/owners may not think he can do it--the interview with (oh gosh, was it the trainer or the owner?) one of them where he was hesitant--he said something like Let's see how he recovers. Didn't sound confident.

 

But I hope so!! I hope he goes to the front with 300 yards left and it looks like he's going to win, and then up come the closers, and that game little horse HOLDS ON and wins by a nose!

 

(ahem--excuse me, too many Black Stallion books...)

LOL. DS is in the middle of the Black Stallion series and has enjoyed watching California Chrome win. He's definitely rooting for him to win in three weeks.

[goldberry]

Can I ask a genuine question, not to upset anyone but because I am really uncertain on the subject?  I love horses and to watch thoroughbred racing.  But then I started reading certain people saying that it is bad for the horses and cases where horses are just killed rather than retired.  Is that more an isolated problem that people are jumping on?  Or what do you think who actually follow the sport?  I have felt very conflicted about it over the last few years, but it seems hard to find reliable information.

[BrookValley.]

I think there's a lot of ugly in the horse racing industry. Because that's what it is--industry. Business. There are people working to better it, but it likely has a long way to go. As someone involved with horses my entire life, I'm really conflicted about thoroughbred racing. On one hand, these horses have an incredible work ethic. They don't run because they have to, they run because they want to. But yeah, I think there's plenty of questionable and unethical and downright cruelty that goes on.

 

And yes, there are a lot of horses that basically get used up and thrown away. However, there are also a lot of groups working on that front. Ex-racehorses are athletic and smart, and that aforementioned work ethic means they can excell in a lot of other disciplines. So there's a large movement to re-home and re-train racehorses so they don't end up at auction/in slaughterhouses. There are a lot of good, ethical trainers/owners who want these guys to go on to good homes and new careers after their racing days are done. I took a 4-year old off the track last year through an organization called CANTER. I'm currently retraining him to be a show hunter.

 

So yes, good, bad, and everything between in racing, I think.

[creekland]

I'm not sure. I, too, watched all the races in the 70's and 80's!

 

A tip off that his trainer/owners may not think he can do it--the interview with (oh gosh, was it the trainer or the owner?) one of them where he was hesitant--he said something like Let's see how he recovers. Didn't sound confident.

 

But I hope so!! I hope he goes to the front with 300 yards left and it looks like he's going to win, and then up come the closers, and that game little horse HOLDS ON and wins by a nose!

 

(ahem--excuse me, too many Black Stallion books...)

 

Winning by a nose would be too much of a stress test for me.  I'd prefer a length at least.  A repeat of Secretariat's win would also suffice nicely!

 

Loved the Black Stallion books as a youngster...

 

Can I ask a genuine question, not to upset anyone but because I am really uncertain on the subject?  I love horses and to watch thoroughbred racing.  But then I started reading certain people saying that it is bad for the horses and cases where horses are just killed rather than retired.  Is that more an isolated problem that people are jumping on?  Or what do you think who actually follow the sport?  I have felt very conflicted about it over the last few years, but it seems hard to find reliable information.

 

Training the horses young is definitely not the greatest thing in the world, but it's a youngsters sport to be honest, so it's not likely to change.  Many do get injured in the process - even famous or super promising youngsters.  However, the same can be said for any human sport too.  How many start young with Olympic rings in their starry eyes?  How many make it there?  How many fall aside along the way?

 

Having worked with oodles of horses and ponies, I can say that racehorses either love their job or they don't stay at their job.  Those who don't like it don't do well and don't stay in training.  Many do end up somewhere else in the horse world (hunters, jumpers, even chasers or the occasional trail mount I've come across).  I'll admit to being pro-slaughter, so if there is no other home for a horse, I think slaughter at least puts their body to good use somewhere (dog/lion/people food) rather than merely putting them down and killing something else for the "others" to eat.  (I've really never understood that - putting unwanted animals down and having them go to waste - totally different for the end stages of "wanted" animals.  We have some of those buried on our farm.)

 

As with any industry (human or animal) there will always be some "bad actors" in charge.  I don't feel that's the majority and applaud when these folks get outed and demoted.  It happens in the show horse (or pony) world too.  It can happen with people who keep horses in their back yard.  It probably happens the most in some of those cases.

 

But back to horse racing (or any equine sport), I've come to the conclusion that these equines love their jobs and, like human athletes, I enjoy watching them compete - all at the same time as having many of my English show ponies (we raise them) stay here at our farm and not get started in training until they are three.  They can, and do, get started earlier when people buy them younger.  Such is life.

 

And with horse racing, for many, retirement comes early.  Then they can end up in a pasture enjoying the lazy life for many of their days.  Other disciplines work longer for a living, but again, the vast majority really do enjoy their lives IME.

[Kathryn]

How many start young with Olympic rings in their starry eyes? How many make it there? How many fall aside along the way?

 

Far OT, but this was an interesting thought. The two people that I grew up with who trained hard with Olympic dreams both made it, and one got the gold. I guess that makes those sorts of dreams seem a little more attainable.

[creekland]

Far OT, but this was an interesting thought. The two people that I grew up with who trained hard with Olympic dreams both made it, and one got the gold. I guess that makes those sorts of dreams seem a little more attainable.

 

I competed against some who made it too (equestrian sports - remember Ian Miller and Big Ben?  There was a time when Big Ben was competing in the "schooling jumpers."  ;)  ).  It can happen.  But there are far more competing who never make it than those who do.

 

[Chris in VA]

It's interesting you should mention being conflicted. Dd won't watch--she hates the hitting to make them run faster aspect of racing. That's the tip of the iceberg, really--but I AM glad the industry is cleaning up.

 

And I still find races thrilling--you can tell the horses do want to run.

[unsinkable]

It's interesting you should mention being conflicted. Dd won't watch--she hates the hitting to make them run faster aspect of racing. That's the tip of the iceberg, really--but I AM glad the industry is cleaning up.

 

And I still find races thrilling--you can tell the horses do want to run.

Some of them really do want to run, so much so they can't be stabled near the tracks bc they get too excited when they see or hear other horses running.

[Reefgazer]

I used to watch these guys run at Saratoga when I was younger.  I will never forget Secretariat.  I was about 11 when I saw first him there, and he looked so huge to me, because I was standing at the rail and looking up at that giant stride as he came down the stretch.  Best memories ever!

 

Alydar was terribly abused at stud, he was over-bred when his barn was failing financially and they depended on him for stud fees.  But he was definitely royalty, triple crown or not.

 

I don't think Chrome will take it.  1 1/2 is a long way and the shortest way around on the rail, which is extraordinarily tiring at Belmont; deep sand there.  I think he'll tire in the stretch, but we'll see!

Same here!

 

 

I definitely worry about some of those closers (who were not in the Preakness) in a mile and a half race, but I'm definitely rooting for Chrome.  I saw Secretariat, Seattle Slew, and Affirmed in the 70s and brought my boys up watching the Triple Crown (even if they opted to skip other races).  Many times they've been disappointed.  I'd like to see someone give them a TC winner while we're watching together (two of my three are here watching)!  Chrome has run well in his last two races (and before).  I hope he has another in him, but the track is definitely different in NY.

 

On a side note, one has to REALLY feel sorry for Alydar - the only horse to finish 2nd to the same horse in all three races.  Eliminate Affirmed and he'd have been one of those rare TC winners.  Of course, he made up for it financially at stud, but still, there's something in the actual prestige.

 

 

I say... you take all the fun out of it wanting those silly facts! ;)  (But, of course, I agree with you.  I want to see how he trains at Belmont.)

 

[Reefgazer]

They are treated well only when it suits their owners because they are a money investment and not a pet for their owners.  The Derby and Triple Crown winners are run too far, too fast, and too young, and the Belmont ruins most colts because it's too far to ask young 3 year olds to run (some of whom are not even really 3 years old).  Most horses, in the words of John Longden, "are not "worth a damn after the Belmont".    I practically lived at the racetrack when I was younger (Saratoga and Belmont) and I have some great memories from there and it's hard not to get revved up when I hear the starting gate go up on TV.  But I no longer participate in racing in any way because of what I have come to see as abuse of the animals; I have not placed a bet nor stepped foot on a racetrack in about 10 years and can't see myself supporting it again in the future, either.  To me, it is different from human athletes because human athletes have some say in whether they participate or not and the horses, at least initially, do not.  I addition, state laws governing all sorts of things from drug use to bedding encourage bad behavior by bad actors in the racing industry; a sort of state-sanctioned bad and abusive behavior.  The industry polices itself very poorly, although I know they are not the only industry to act badly.

Can I ask a genuine question, not to upset anyone but because I am really uncertain on the subject?  I love horses and to watch thoroughbred racing.  But then I started reading certain people saying that it is bad for the horses and cases where horses are just killed rather than retired.  Is that more an isolated problem that people are jumping on?  Or what do you think who actually follow the sport?  I have felt very conflicted about it over the last few years, but it seems hard to find reliable information.

 

[unsinkable]

I used to watch these guys run at Saratoga when I was younger. I will never forget Secretariat. I was about 11 when I saw first him there, and he looked so huge to me, because I was standing at the rail and looking up at that giant stride as he came down the stretch. Best memories ever!

 

Alydar was terribly abused at stud, he was over-bred when his barn was failing financially and they depended on him for stud fees. But he was definitely royalty, triple crown or not.

 

I don't think Chrome will take it. 1 1/2 is a long way and the shortest way around on the rail, which is extraordinarily tiring at Belmont; deep sand there. I think he'll tire in the stretch, but we'll see!

I'm not sure what you're remembering but Secretariat won twice at Saratoga as a 2 year old ( before he won the Triple Crown) but lost there as a 3 year old, after he won the Triple Crown.

[goldberry]

 I'll admit to being pro-slaughter, so if there is no other home for a horse, I think slaughter at least puts their body to good use somewhere (dog/lion/people food) rather than merely putting them down and killing something else for the "others" to eat.  (I've really never understood that - putting unwanted animals down and having them go to waste - totally different for the end stages of "wanted" animals.  We have some of those buried on our farm.)

 

As with any industry (human or animal) there will always be some "bad actors" in charge.  I don't feel that's the majority and applaud when these folks get outed and demoted.  It happens in the show horse (or pony) world too.  It can happen with people who keep horses in their back yard.  It probably happens the most in some of those cases.

 

 

 

Why would there ever be "no other home for a horse" though, that would make slaughter necessary?  I get the idea of a business and not a pet.  However, I would think there would still be places to take a horse even if the owner didn't want to keep it when it couldn't run anymore.  Is that not the case?

 

That's what seems sad, for owners to use a horse, but really have no respect for it other than what they can get from it.  It still is a living creature. Unfortunately, some people use and throw away people like that too, I guess.

 

I do agree with you though, that the horses seem to love what they do.  That is where I feel conflicted, because they really do seem to enjoy it and watching their energy is amazing.  It would be nice if regulations were better enforced so there wouldn't have to be a conflict.

 

[creekland]

Why would there ever be "no other home for a horse" though, that would make slaughter necessary?  I get the idea of a business and not a pet.  However, I would think there would still be places to take a horse even if the owner didn't want to keep it when it couldn't run anymore.  Is that not the case?

 

 

Horses are extremely expensive to keep with their annual vet care, maintenance, and feed.  While some owners have money to burn and could afford to keep multiple animals forever, the vast majority of horse owners are not in that category.

 

There are very few "pet" homes for equines - people willing to take on the expense for nothing in return.  There are far more horses/ponies that need a pet home than there are homes (not unlike dogs/cats in shelters).

 

When slaughter was illegal, all it did was end up having many people abandon unwanted animals.  At some local auctions, those who didn't lock their horse trailer could find animals loaded on it when they returned.  That's not a better situation IMO.

 

IMO, the best situation is a "place" for all critters, and considering many do eat horse (people, dogs, cats, etc), for some that are unwanted, that place is best there rather than being abandoned or put to death and burned/buried and "wasted."  The meat eaters are going to eat meat anyway - why not eat what is being burned/buried rather than some other animal?

 

Not every horse is as nice as Black Beauty... and some are essentially "ruined" by well meaning "pet" people who don't know how to handle a horse and let them take charge. When that happens, a horse can be dangerous.  Is it worth it to keep a dangerous horse as a pet?

 

I have a pony here now I'm wondering what to do with.  He's 7 years old, black, about 13.2hh, and his full brother will be competing at Devon next week (all this to essentially say he should be worth a mint).  However, he went out for training at 4 and the trainer didn't do a whole lot with him due to an injury she sustained (not from him).  She took a working student position when he was 5, so returned him barely knowing the basics (while telling me he was doing well under saddle).  At 6 he went out on trial with a lady knowing his full story.  The trial was long enough that she was to restart him slowly, but he has such nice ground manners, etc, that she hopped right on him within an hour of when we left.  He got scared and bucked her off.  She got cowboy boyfriend to get on him.  The bucking continued for 4 more days... He's learned he can buck a rider off (sigh).

 

I'm really mad at what they did, but that doesn't change a thing (they also didn't tell me until 3 days afterward).  Needless to say, they didn't buy him (good thing as it WOULD NOT have been a good home) and he came back home.  We let him have the rest of last summer and all of this spring off, but you know what?  We can't keep him forever either.  A gelding has no use on a breeding farm...

 

Meanwhile, due to health issues (brain tumor), I can't do as much with the ponies as I used to for a while.

 

So, I need to find a "pet" home for him (he'd actually make a great pet) or find someone willing to work with a "problem" pony.  Neither is an easy task, and the latter is not cheap.  Training in general is not cheap.

 

Time will tell what happens.  Fortunately, his experience doesn't happen often, but he's not alone in getting the rough edge of life.  Some have it much worse.  At least he had a home to come home to.  Many don't get that once they leave their farm.

 

[goldberry]

I  agree that it is better for an animal to be humanely euthanized than to be abandoned.  I live rural and people will drop a box of puppies (or an grown unwanted dog) on the side of the road. :(   That is just the ultimate avoidance of responsibility. 

 

 I don't see any issues with the remains being used for food if the euthanization is humane. 

[Ottakee]

You said it so well.  Horses are expensive and in this economy most people can not afford to keep an extra 1, 2, or 3 horses that they can't ride, drive, etc.

 

My daughter rode an OTTB---off track race horse at her riding lessons.  He didn't have the heart for racing but just a few months off the track with some proper training was making a good lesson horse at a local jumping barn.  His was a good outcome story.

 

The horse situation in our area with our poor economy is such that horses are starving to death.  The day my vet came out to do our horses' shots he said he had just come from a place where 3 horses had starved to death.  No injuries or illness, just no food.  In those cases being sent to slaughter before it reaches that point (and that needs to be a bit more regulated for humane treatment) or even a bullet to the head would have been a much better option than letting them suffer.  Sad to say, that is not uncommon lately in our area.

 

There are a few places that can take rescue horses---those whose owners can't afford to feed or care for them, those with behavioral issues, illness/injuries that render them unrideable, etc.--but those places are full and overflowing.

 

 

Horses are extremely expensive to keep with their annual vet care, maintenance, and feed.  While some owners have money to burn and could afford to keep multiple animals forever, the vast majority of horse owners are not in that category.

 

 

[creekland]

Well, at least he gets to race (nasal strip decision)!  That would have been a big bummer if NYRA had said no to that.  I have no issue with those and can't really see why anyone would...