Dual enrollment

[Night Elf]

I'm asking this about my dd15 who is in public school. She's applying for dual enrollment for her Junior year. I don't think she's going to qualify, but I'm not saying that to her. Her counselor told her she needed to take 11th grade English because it's required for graduation. She has a friend who is taking just English as dual enrollment. My dd doesn't want to double up on English, so what would she take if she was dual enrolled? I guess I had better email her counselor and specifically ask how many classes she's allowed to take. There is one program that is dual enrollment where she takes classes at college and stays in high school. There's another program that has the student taking all classes at college. She definitely won't qualify for that one. What have your students taken when dual enrolled?

[8filltheheart]

Bc she is a ps student, I don't think anyone can answer the question bc she is going to have to comply in a way that satisfies the school's requirements. For most homeschooled students, the main requirements are going to be score on the Compass test to qualify for admission into the class and possibly age/grade requirements. English comp 1 followed by comp 2 is a fairly standard sequence. Most lit classes have comp as a pre- req.

[regentrude]

Her counselor told her she needed to take 11th grade English because it's required for graduation. She has a friend who is taking just English as dual enrollment. My dd doesn't want to double up on English, so what would she take if she was dual enrolled? I guess I had better email her counselor and specifically ask how many classes she's allowed to take. There is one program that is dual enrollment where she takes classes at college and stays in high school. There's another program that has the student taking all classes at college. She definitely won't qualify for that one.

 

Whether or not she needs 11th grade English is a matter of school policy; you need to ask the school.

As for your question "what to take", I am a bit puzzled: I would have thought that before deciding that the student wants dual enrollment, the student and parent would have identified why it is needed and pinpointed in which subject she does not receive quality instruction at the adequate level at the school.

 

 

 

What have your students taken when dual enrolled?

 

My DD has taken five semesters of French because I can not teach that at home at this level, as well as three calculus based physics and two upper level literature classes because these are subjects she is particularly interested in. Since we home school, we are not subject to any requirements of a public school.

 

[Teachin'Mine]

Does she write well?  If so, I'd assume her first English course would be Composition I, but as others have said, it will likely depend on testing and is dependent upon what her school tells her as well.  You may want to check how the college courses are applied to her high school transcript credit wise.  If something like Comp I is given a full high school credit, then she'd likely only need that one English class to satisfy her 11th grade English requirement.  I'd definitely ask a lot of questions ahead of time.  I hope she qualifies as it sounds like she's interested. 

[Jenny in Florida]

As others have said, because your daughter is in school, she will have to follow their policies. I know that our local public schools have a reputation for making it difficult for students to dual enroll, because they would prefer to keep the students on their own campuses. So, they put in place requirements and policies above and beyond those set by the colleges. In our area, capable students tend to be steered into AP classes, rather than dual enrollment, wherever possible.

 

For example, one of the girls my son knows at his dance school is in her senior year. She wanted to dual enroll for an English class, and he SAT scores met the requirements set by the community college to allow her to do so. However, her math score missed the cut-off slightly, and her school refused to allow her to dual enroll at all, even though she wasn't interested in taking a math class. Another of my son's friends has been told her school will not approve dual enrollment unless the student can prove there is no appropriate class she could take at the high school to fulfill a specific requirement.

 

With that said, my son is dual enrolled as a homeschooler at our local community college. He qualified based on his ACT scores to take regular college-level classes. He's in his second semester. Last semester, he took:

 

- Freshman Comp I

- U.S. Government

- Basic Stagecraft

 

This semester, he's taking:

 

- Freshman Comp II

- Humanities: Mythology

- Astronomy

- College Mathematics

 

 

[Mom22ns]

When I was in high school I took college algebra, chemistry and American history through dual enrollment. Foreign languages are often an option. What I have seen available is all the classes that meet general education requirements, intro level sciences, math, and humanities.

[KarenNC]

It varies by state. In NC, there is a very specfic limited menu of classes available to DE students, regardless of whether the student is in ps, private, or homeschool, then one has to deal with the public school policies on what will be allowed.

[plansrme]

NightElf, are you in Georgia by any chance?

[EndOfOrdinary]

When I was in school English 101 counted as 11th grade English if I took a literature based elective as well. So you would take a 3 credit 101 and a 3 credit world lit/Anchient lit/c.s. Lewis' writings or whatever. This might be what they mean. Secondly, if you are already having to advocate for your daughter about credits classes, and basic enrollment information she is probably not ready for DE. She needs to be able to completely self advocate and be assertive enough to get information without your help if she plans to negotiate a college campus.

[Caroline]

My guess is 11th grade English is American Lit at her DD's school. In our state, a class called American Lit with it's EOCT (end of course test, a state standardized test) is required for graduation from a public high school. However, I know the way around it. A law was recently passed that students could receive credit for two EOCT courses by taking the EOCT before starting the course, essentially testing out of the course. The American Lit EOCT is pretty easy. If that's something you are interested in, talk to a counselor or the English department chair. If you do that, she could take English at the college.

[Night Elf]

NightElf, are you in Georgia by any chance?

 

Yes, I am. And it's my understanding that homeschooled students are held to the same requirements for dual enrollment as public school students. I was just curious what kinds of classes DE kids take. English and math seem to be the obvious choices. But dd will have completed 2 years of French and I think taking it in college now would be a good thing. She's also slated to take American History next year. I think doing that at the college level would also be good. I emailed her counselor and she told me that students take anywhere from 1 class to a full schedule, just depending on the student's goals. She told me they have another meeting planned within a couple of weeks that I will attend. She's only taken 2 honors classes, but would like to get into some AP classes. I hope they explain DE in detail at the next meeting. It's just so confusing to me.

[Night Elf]

My guess is 11th grade English is American Lit at her DD's school. In our state, a class called American Lit with it's EOCT (end of course test, a state standardized test) is required for graduation from a public high school. However, I know the way around it. A law was recently passed that students could receive credit for two EOCT courses by taking the EOCT before starting the course, essentially testing out of the course. The American Lit EOCT is pretty easy. If that's something you are interested in, talk to a counselor or the English department chair. If you do that, she could take English at the college.

 

Now this sounds good. I'll have her ask her counselor about that. I've no doubt she could pass the English EOCT. I believe that 11th grade is when the students have to take a writing test required for graduation. I think they do it that way so students have an extra year to pass it in case they fail it the first time. But I don't know if that test is part of the English class or not.

[Teachin'Mine]

Taking french DE would be great!  The college classes move a lot more quickly than high school ones do, so even though she's already had two years of French, I'd recommend her beginning with French I.  It would be an easy class as she gets used to the college scheduling and all.  I would find out what is available to her, and then go from there.  I'm assuming she'll need to take a placement test of some sort and that will help you further in knowing which classes she can take.  I'd let her pursue her interests.  I'd also start slowly the first semester, maybe with French and an English course and a light elective if they're allowed.  If you want some info before the next meeting, you can go to the college and speak with someone in the dual enrollment office.  Then you would have more to go on and could ask more specific questions at the meeting.  It is confusing at the beginning, so having a contact at the college as well as the high school might be helpful.

[Caroline]

Now this sounds good. I'll have her ask her counselor about that. I've no doubt she could pass the English EOCT. I believe that 11th grade is when the students have to take a writing test required for graduation. I think they do it that way so students have an extra year to pass it in case they fail it the first time. But I don't know if that test is part of the English class or not.

 

The writing test should be separate from the English class. We always call our dual enrolled students back to school to take the test. It is one morning, less than 3 hours to take the test. She may have to miss a morning od dual enrolled classes, if she has classes during the test time. It is in October, I think. I don't have the date for next year, yet. PM me if you want more info.

[plansrme]

I asked if you were in GA because I met Tuesday with the GC at my daughter's school about her options for DE/MOWR, and they had printed out a chart from Chattahoochee Tech's website that shows Accel, DE, Joint Enrollment and MOWR and the differences between them.  Other than the specific fees and eligibility requirements (SAT minimums, for example) mentioned on the chart, the rules apply to all of the schools that permit DE/MOWR, so they use it regardless of what college the student wants to attend.  Some of the schools have their own requirements on top of the state's, and that is what we are wrestling with right now.  Ga Tech requires that the student "have completed the highest level of coursework available at the high school in the subject area(s) scheduled to be taken" at Tech.  Practically, we are wondering how this ever works when the high school has multiple post-AP courses, but that is something we have to work out with Tech.   It also seems to be unique to Tech and wouldn't be a problem with any of the other colleges in the area.

 

Anyway, to answer the question, my daughter will have maxed out math at her school this semester (she's taking Calc III through Tech now), so she wants to take math at Tech but does not have time to commute back and forth between the Tech and her HS campuses.  That is why we are trying to figure out how to get her off of her HS campus full-time.  She also wants to take physics there because she has maxed out on physics and organic chemistry (though her HS has added an organic chem class, so that may not be an option any more), and she would love to take English comp because she despises busy work in the AP lit classes.  She loves literature, but the projects and papers she is being assigned are ridiculous and do nothing to teach literature.  She has had zero respect for the lit teachers ever since she was dinged on a portfolio because her cover was not creative enough.  NEVER MIND that the content was stellar; her COVER was not colorful, didn't light up, whatever.  Anyway, like you, we are still in the exploratory stages, but it IS confusing.  I read fine print for a living, but sitting down with the GC was very helpful.  Now I just have to get the DE person at Tech to talk to me as well.

 

 

[Jenny in Florida]

Yes, I am. And it's my understanding that homeschooled students are held to the same requirements for dual enrollment as public school students.

 

I hope nothing I said implied that things are otherwise here. Homeschooled students here have to meet the same requirements that public and private school students do, as set by the college. The difference here is that the high schools impose their own requirements on top of those. So, the only "advantage" a homeschooler has is that the parents are listed as the high school of record and have more flexibility to determine whether a course is appropriate for a given student.

[Night Elf]

I hope nothing I said implied that things are otherwise here. Homeschooled students here have to meet the same requirements that public and private school students do, as set by the college. The difference here is that the high schools impose their own requirements on top of those. So, the only "advantage" a homeschooler has is that the parents are listed as the high school of record and have more flexibility to determine whether a course is appropriate for a given student.

 

Oh no, I'm just thinking of posts I've seen here that make dual enrollment sound so easy. Here, if you don't have the SAT scores, or maybe even high level courses, you're not going to get into the program. I never pursued it for my homeschooled son because he didn't take the SAT and it all seem so complicated. He has no interest in DE anyway. It's my dd that wants to DE.

[Night Elf]

I asked if you were in GA because I met Tuesday with the GC at my daughter's school about her options for DE/MOWR, and they had printed out a chart from Chattahoochee Tech's website that shows Accel, DE, Joint Enrollment and MOWR and the differences between them.  Other than the specific fees and eligibility requirements (SAT minimums, for example) mentioned on the chart, the rules apply to all of the schools that permit DE/MOWR, so they use it regardless of what college the student wants to attend.

 

Thanks, that helps tremendously. It looks like DE is only technical school, and that Joint is both academic/technical. I think that's what it means.

 

I don't even know if my dd will qualify. She's an all A student, but she's only had two Honors level courses during Freshman year. Everything else has been on-level. She'll take the SAT this March. Based on her PSAT scores, we think she'll do okay. If they want to see AP classes, she won't get in. She's trying to get into AP Computer Science but she's competing with kids who have those upper level Math and Science classes. She is no where near them academically. I'm afraid she's going to be terribly disappointed.

[Caroline]

One other thing for GA...Be careful using the Accel option. That will take away from the credits allowed for the Hope Scholarship. If you have no plans to stay in state for college, that wouldn't make a difference, or if you were absolutely sure your credits will count towards college credits needed for you major, that woudn't make a difference. But I have known some students who run out of Hope their fourth college year due to using Accel credits,and they were not ready to pay tuition.

[regentrude]

Oh no, I'm just thinking of posts I've seen here that make dual enrollment sound so easy. Here, if you don't have the SAT scores, or maybe even high level courses, you're not going to get into the program.

 

That depends entirely on the college where you are dually enrolling. Community colleges do not usually require an SAT. However, our local four year university holds dual enrollment students to higher standards than regularly admitted freshmen. So yes, in our case, having strong test scores was necessary. But with them, it was easy.

[Teachin'Mine]

Each college is different with what they require for dual enrollment admission.  I would really go to the college and talk with someone in the dual enrollment office and ask them what the minimum scores are for each of the tests.  Your daughter may even be able to use her PSAT score to satisfy their requirement, but you'll need to ask.  If they use a college placement test, ask them for the name of the test and ask how she can practice.  Her admission is a bit more complicated since she'll need her high school's approval as well , but if she passes the placement test, then you can definitely advocate for her.   If she doesn't get into the AP Computer Science course, and she does get approval for DE, then she could probably take that at the CC instead.  If they have a limited number of seats at the high school, then this could be part of your argument for her need for DE.  Schools should not be discouraging students from pursuing STEM courses. 

[Jenny in Florida]

That depends entirely on the college where you are dually enrolling. Community colleges do not usually require an SAT. However, our local four year university holds dual enrollment students to higher standards than regularly admitted freshmen. So yes, in our case, having strong test scores was necessary. But with them, it was easy.

 

Yes, that's similar to how it works here. Students don't need ACT/SAT scores to enroll; they just take the PERT (Florida's placement test). For both regular and dual enrolled students, scores from the ACT or SAT can be submitted in place of the PERT.

 

I can't find any indication that our local community college requires any minimum score on any of the tests for regular admission. However, dual enrolled students have to submit scores that meet the college readiness benchmarks and have a minimum high school GPA of 3.0 in order to be eligible.

 

However, once a student has those in place, the process of enrolling is pretty simple.

[plansrme]

One other thing for GA...Be careful using the Accel option. That will take away from the credits allowed for the Hope Scholarship. If you have no plans to stay in state for college, that wouldn't make a difference, or if you were absolutely sure your credits will count towards college credits needed for you major, that woudn't make a difference. But I have known some students who run out of Hope their fourth college year due to using Accel credits,and they were not ready to pay tuition.

 

Everything I have read lately says that this is not the case any more.  I don't doubt that it was, but apparently the glitch has been fixed.  My daughter is in Calc III at GATech through her high school, it is paid for by Accel funds, and we have been assured a hundred times that it does not count against her HOPE.  I don't expect her to ever use HOPE, so I don't really care, but it would obviously be an issue for many of her classmates. 

[Caroline]

Everything I have read lately says that this is not the case any more.  I don't doubt that it was, but apparently the glitch has been fixed.  My daughter is in Calc III at GATech through her high school, it is paid for by Accel funds, and we have been assured a hundred times that it does not count against her HOPE.  I don't expect her to ever use HOPE, so I don't really care, but it would obviously be an issue for many of her classmates. 

 

You are right. They changed the law two years ago. Thanks for pointing that out. (It wasn't a glitch. It was the law.)

[MarkT]

she would love to take English comp because she despises busy work in the AP lit classes.  She loves literature, but the projects and papers she is being assigned are ridiculous and do nothing to teach literature.  She has had zero respect for the lit teachers ever since she was dinged on a portfolio because her cover was not creative enough.  NEVER MIND that the content was stellar; her COVER was not colorful, didn't light up, whatever.  

 

Amazing - does the AP Lit teacher think that a college instructor would even look at a cover?  This sounds like the Science Fair boards at the middle schools in this area.  Scientific crap but very pretty so they score higher. 

 

[Grantmom]

Someone was telling me the other day that the high school here has a program where the high school student does DE through the local community college and, when they graduate from high school, they also have an associate's degree.  But I am not sure I understand why someone would do that?  That seems like doing extra work.  Why not just go ahead and get the associates degree and skip the high school part?  (If one's intent was to end up at 18 with an associate's degree, is what I mean.

[regentrude]

Someone was telling me the other day that the high school here has a program where the high school student does DE through the local community college and, when they graduate from high school, they also have an associate's degree.  But I am not sure I understand why someone would do that?  That seems like doing extra work.  Why not just go ahead and get the associates degree and skip the high school part?  (If one's intent was to end up at 18 with an associate's degree, is what I mean.

 

Dual in DE means that the college courses are counted to satisfy the high school graduation requirement. And that, I think, is fairly important, because the student may, at some point in later life, be asked if he has a high school diploma. You want to be able to check "Yes"  - because not having a high school diploma can close doors.

I also don't see how this would be any more work, if it is really a DUAL enrollment situation.

[Grantmom]

I guess I was thinking that, as opposed to homeschooling, if the goal was to get an associate's degree, then you could just homeschool and do DE rather than go through the high school.  (Not referring to the OP, just to the person who was mentioning this option to me the other day.)  But in my state, the state doesn't award diplomas to homeschoolers.  I hope that doesn't affect us negatively later on.

[regentrude]

I guess I was thinking that, as opposed to homeschooling, if the goal was to get an associate's degree, then you could just homeschool and do DE rather than go through the high school.  (Not referring to the OP, just to the person who was mentioning this option to me the other day.)  But in my state, the state doesn't award diplomas to homeschoolers.  I hope that doesn't affect us negatively later on.

 

Most states do not award diplomas to home schoolers. The diploma is awarded by the school - your home school.

 

And I agree, for a homeschooled student it would make no sense to go through the high school, unless that makes DE free, which could be the case in some states.

[8filltheheart]

I guess I was thinking that, as opposed to homeschooling, if the goal was to get an associate's degree, then you could just homeschool and do DE rather than go through the high school. (Not referring to the OP, just to the person who was mentioning this option to me the other day.) But in my state, the state doesn't award diplomas to homeschoolers. I hope that doesn't affect us negatively later on.

It would be easier to explain if we knew which state you are in and whether or not the person was referring to PSEO which is normally funded by the state and free for advanced student. (At least that is the way I have seen it in several states, but it normally requires the student to be beyond what is offered at the high school.)

 

But then there is simple dual enrollment between the homeschooler and the given institution, either a CC or university. Public schools are not involved. The student has to follow whatever guidelines the institution has. For some, it is simply taking the Compass test on campus and enrolling in classes that it allows them to place into. For others there is an additional age requirement. Some restrict the classes students can take, etc.

 

Our experience is that most of the guidelines are fairly flexible. For example,the 4 yr university where ds is currently enrolling says it doesn't allow students to dual enroll until sr yr and they can take 1 class. The entrance requirements are much stringent than for college freshman. However, we met with the admissions office and they allowed ds to enroll early and take 2classes each semester bc he was able to demonstrate that they were the only source of academically appropriate level work.

 

There are many homeschoolers that do seek dual enrollment and a AA as their given highschool route. Our choices for dual enrollment are for when students have maxed out high school level courses and are ready for upper level classes.

 

Either way, the state is not involved one way or the other.

[Night Elf]

Sorry, this comment was made already.

[laughing lioness]

Bridgeway Academy offers DE courses. I know you said your dd was in public school, but it's an option that is available.

[Night Elf]

Well, I live in Georgia. And we learned about the DE program, called Accel, through the public high school that is supporting only DE students going to The University of North Georgia which is a 4-year college, or they are also affiliated with a technical school. I don't know about any other colleges, which might not work anyway because dd won't have a license. I'll be driving her. We were told the requirements were a GPA of 3.7, a critical reading SAT of 480 and a math SAT of 430. Other than being a resident of Georgia, there are no other qualifications needed to be met. And after all of this, dd informed me yesterday that she isn't sure she wants to pursue DE. I'm trying to figure out if I need to push this. She blew a good opportunity this year for advanced classes and kind of regrets it. Would DE look good on college applications if she doesn't have AP classes? I really want her to pursue this because I know she can do it. I think she just keeps taking the easy path because she's afraid.

[Teachin'Mine]

I would definitely encourage her to take the DE.  There's nothing like success to help her get over her fear.  Just make sure that she starts slowly and with courses in which she will likely do well.  It definitely looks good to colleges when a high school student has already done well in actual college classes.

[plansrme]

Would DE look good on college applications if she doesn't have AP classes? I really want her to pursue this because I know she can do it. I think she just keeps taking the easy path because she's afraid.

 

I may get my head bitten off for this, but I think AP classes from a good high school, and good scores on the exams, look better than DE courses from any but top tier colleges.  The exceptions are the easy APs (human geography, enviro and psych, I'm looking at you), which everyone knows are for cheap quality points for your GPA.  Certainly this is something on which reasonable minds may vary, but I am basing this opinion on:

 

(1) my daughter's extensive experience in AP courses (she is a sophomore; has taken 6 AP exams, will take 3 in May);

(2) the opinion of her GC and the head of DE at her high school;

(3) hours of perusing the resumes of the kids on College Confidential who get into or are trying to get into top-tier schools (none have DE; all have tons of APs); 

(4) an anecdotal comparison of the average SATs of the kids in my daughter's hard APs versus the average SATs of the freshmen at the second- and third-tier colleges (KSU, Southern Poly; I don't know anything about U of N. Ga.); and

(5) U.Ga. specifically, we were told, is not a fan of DE; they would decidedly prefer APs.  (Readers outside of GA might not know that U.Ga. freshman admission is extremely competitive now, thanks to HOPE.)

 

 

So, if there are APs with decent teachers at her school, I personally would encourage her to take those.  If she wants to finish college early, she may end up with just as much college credit from APs as she would through DE; most of the big state Us award generous credit for good AP scores. 

 

For what it is worth, we have looked at this as well for my daughter, who has exhausted several subject areas at her school.  We looked at KSU and Southern Poly and basically decided that unless she could do her DE classes at Ga. Tech, it wasn't worth it.  I can't imagine a school, any school, not taking math, science or engineering courses from Tech (other than schools that just don't take anyone's credit) or looking at the courses she is considering and thinking they are not rigorous.

 

Best of luck with whatever you decide.  I think our state's DE/MOWR options are awesome, and I am thrilled that they are so generous with funding, but it sure makes figuring out the right path for our kiddos complicated.

[Mom22ns]

And I agree, for a homeschooled student it would make no sense to go through the high school, unless that makes DE free, which could be the case in some states.

 

This is the case for us. I talked to the local high school and they said if we signed up for the dual enrollment classes through them (with local CC) that they would be free and we could still homeschool the rest of our courses. I was trying to decide if the hassle was worth it for the free tuition since the CC is so cheap anyway. However, this year ds wanted to take Japanese and the CC didn't offer it and the high school doesn't have the same agreement with the local State University.

 

I'm still considering signing my kids up for dual enrollment in future years for the financial savings. I will probably try to do with with dd who wants to take quite a few classes through the CC that would qualify fro free tuition. There is no price break as homeschoolers.

[Jenny in Florida]

I may get my head bitten off for this, but I think AP classes from a good high school, and good scores on the exams, look better than DE courses from any but top tier colleges.  

 

It varies, honestly, depending on the reputation of the community college and the four-year to which the student is applying. Most of the colleges to which my son has applied for next year have said they will accept college courses actually taken on a college campus for credit. And one of our big state universities gives "extra consideration" to students who have dual enrollment credits with a GPA of 3.0 or higher, because they have already proven they can be successful in a college environment.

 

By contrast, the colleges have been a little iffy-er on the question of credit for APs. Mostly what we hear in information sessions is "usually," with a score of 4 or 5 on the exam, they will be accepted.

 

I actually just heard exactly that statement in a parent information session during a college visit this morning.