Math--McRuffy vs. Horizons vs. CLE

[Aspasia]

I've seen some older threads comparing these, but they're all a couple years old, so maybe there are some new experiences and insights. :)

 

I'm looking for a spiral math program that isn't a snooze fest. There's no reason for a 6yo to hate math, right? Dd is bright, but she does require frequent review when it comes to math. Hands-on is a plus. I like the idea of the games and activities with McRuffy. I'm a little concerned that so many people characterize McRuffy as "light", especially on the mental math strategies. What if I supplemented it with Miquon and CWP? Maybe some MM every now and then? (Okay, now this is just getting complicated!)

 

Anyway, I've narrowed my search to these three programs, so any info on how they compare wold be awesome. Thanks!

[8filltheheart]

I know nothing about the other 2, but Horizons is straight-forward and thorough.   I have read people saying that it does not teach what is happening but only algorithms.   I am always perplexed by those statements b/c it makes me think that the parents themselves don't understand what they are supposed to be teaching.  The concepts also are not going to resemble a mastery program b/c that is not how spiral programs teach.   For example, students will spend lots of time breaking apart 2 digit numbers into 10 and 1 rods and adding 10 1s to 1 rods  (so 67= 6 10 rods + 7 one rods= 5 10 rods +17 one rods) long before they learn to subtract numbers where they need to shift 10 to the 1s.   Interspersed with that would be clocks, money, triple digit addition, simple fraction work, and simple multiplication, etc.

 

There are no games. 

 

FWIW, my 7th child is near the beginning (she is 1/2 way through the 2nd grade book) and my 6th child is finishing the series (she does it combined with MiF) All of my older kids have been soundly prepared for higher level math/science.  It has been very successful here.

[Aurelia]

CLE might be pretty boring for a first grader. We started with 3rd grade, and DD would have been miserable trying to use it much younger, it's all workbook pages, usually 4 a day (plus a speed drill), and she just couldn't handle a bunch of written work much before 8 years old. We did RS A&B and MM 1-3, and I would like to have stuck with RS, but my mom couldn't get her head wrapped around it (I had to have her teach it because I work full time - it's all I can do to handle English, Latin and music). Then again, if your child loves workbooks (mine didn't), it may be a great fit. I've never used McRuffy or Horizons, but a friend of mine who uses Horizons for her 4th grader compared our CLE with her Horizons book and said CLE seemed more advanced.

[dereksurfs]

Both our daughters started with mastery math programs (MUS, MM) and weren't retaining things.  In addition to that they disliked math quite a bit. We started CLE when they were young (6 and 7). Now they are both doing much better and responding well to the variety which CLE provides.  We also supplement with HOE and MM to provide a different perspective as well as solidification of concepts.  But MM or similar does not work for them as a spine.  

 

I did not try out the others.  But I would recommend getting samples of each and testing them out with your DD.  It really helps to get feedback from the student.  In addition allowing them to participate also helps them to own their program more when it starts getting more challenging.  I know CLE Light Units are affordable enough to pick up one to compare, demo, etc... which I think would be worth it.  CLE provides many samples here as well: http://www.clp.org/store/by_course/45

[Mommy22alyns]

If you don't want boring, then skip CLE!  It's a great program and I love it, but not what I would call "fun."  I can't speak to McRuffy, but Horizons at least has color and is more involved with manipulatives.  Of course, you can use manipulatives with any curriculum.

[dereksurfs]

If you don't want boring, then skip CLE!  It's a great program and I love it, but not what I would call "fun."  I can't speak to McRuffy, but Horizons at least has color and is more involved with manipulatives.  Of course, you can use manipulatives with any curriculum.

 

Amber, did you try out Horizons?  I would be interested to hear a comparison with CLE, beyond color that is, since you use CLE now.  

 

Also interesting is that you use R&S for other things, but not math.  I know some really like R&S math on here.  So I was wondering if you tried that as well?

[Ewe Mama]

The older, black and white version of McRuffy was justly regarded as being light. However, the color version is very challenging. We used the kindergarten level and then tried 1st grade, but it was a very big jump. We did use it, we just went very slowly and used CLE alongside it. McRuffy was great for the games, but CLE (or R&S) was better for learning math facts.

 

We only used Horizons for K with our eldest and I remember it being very busy, with lots of colors and many different types of problems in a small space. McRuffy has color, but there are fewer types of problems each day, so it feels much more manageable. Horizons was overwhelming and frequently resulted in tears.

 

The RightStart Math games are always a big hit, and I have just looked through Peggy Kaye's Games for Math, with great optimism. One or both would be a great addition to any math program.

[Guest]

Of the 3 listed, none is great at explaining the why of math. McRuffy moves around a lot with seemingly no plan. Horizons does not give enough direction and practice especially as you move to higher levels. CLE is independant and clear. Very good IF your child needs lots of practice AND remembers concepts easily. All are difficult to find a lesson if the child forgets a concept. I have experience with all 3 with different levels and children. CLE would still be our choice if spiral was the way my children learn. Mastery just makes more sense. 

[twinmomtn]

I used McRuffy Math K with my twin girls last year and we are now about 1/2 way through 1st grade McRuffy. We love it. It is not at all light in terms of what they are learning. My kids have very different learning styles and they both do well with McRuffy. For us, spiral is definitely the way to go so maybe that is why we love it so much. If they don't understand a concept right away, they don't have to worry about getting frustrated because the next day is a different topic; if they do understand something right away, they aren't bored to death doing it over and over again the next day.

 

It is very colorful and the lesson are short and very manageable. I occasionally think the rules of the games are a little complicated so I change up the rules to make the games go faster. But overall, we love McRuffy. 

 

I bought Miquon last year thinking I would supplement even more hands on learning since one of my girls loves hands-on stuff,but we haven't gotten around to using it yet....I'm thinking maybe we'll use it for fun over the summer between 1st and 2nd grade as a review of the topics we've already learned.  But McRuffy certainly stands on its own. 

[8filltheheart]

Of the 3 listed, none is great at explaining the why of math. McRuffy moves around a lot with seemingly no plan. Horizons does not give enough direction and practice especially as you move to higher levels. CLE is independant and clear. Very good IF your child needs lots of practice AND remembers concepts easily. All are difficult to find a lesson if the child forgets a concept. I have experience with all 3 with different levels and children. CLE would still be our choice if spiral was the way my children learn. Mastery just makes more sense. 

 

This tells you how different people view different programs.  If anything, I would have said that Horizons has too much practice.  ;)  

[dereksurfs]

This tells you how different people view different programs.  If anything, I would have said that Horizons has too much practice.  ;)  

 

Yes, obviously we all look at programs through a different lens, namely our experiences, preferred teaching methods, academic expectations,students' learning styles, skill levels, etc...  Add to that the most recent holy grail of 'conceptual' instruction and it's somewhat subjective definition (e.g. like SM) and things get confusing for those looking for objective reviews and comparisons.  All that said having more input is still better than the generic happy smiles or thumbs up most other online homeschool reviewers give as not to offend the publishers.  

 

I guess I'm so used to more straight forward reviews of other products including everything from blenders to computers based on clearer metrics that its harder to sift through reviews of homeschool products.  But it is definitely still a worthwhile endeavor and so I appreciate all the feedback that everyone gives even though varied based on the some of the subjectives mentioned.  The fact that there is a fan for every curriculum as well as a detractor can add interest or complicate one's research.  :tongue_smilie:

[Mommy22alyns]

Amber, did you try out Horizons?  I would be interested to hear a comparison with CLE, beyond color that is, since you use CLE now.  

 

Also interesting is that you use R&S for other things, but not math.  I know some really like R&S math on here.  So I was wondering if you tried that as well?

 

 

I used Horizons K with Sylvia and then switched to CLE.   She ended up a little ahead when she started CLE 100 (CLE does ramp up very quickly though).  They are very similar, but CLE gives more instruction to the student than Horizons. It also looks like problems are more closely spaced in Horizons.

 

I haven't tried R&S math, but it's my understanding  that it's a mastery program.  My girls, especially Rebecca (my unfortunate math guinea pig) thrive with spiral.  Otherwise I would probably get blank looks at review time.

 

***I'm going to jump back in here.  After looking at samples of Horizons 5th grade (and yes, I looked at Book 2 samples), it seems to me that CLE is stronger.  I see a bit here and there that is just different in scope and sequence, but for review purposes even, Rebecca is not doing single digit division problems.  Maybe I won't try Horizons for Pre-A.

[dereksurfs]

I used Horizons K with Sylvia and then switched to CLE.   She ended up a little ahead when she started CLE 100 (CLE does ramp up very quickly though).  They are very similar, but CLE gives more instruction to the student than Horizons. It also looks like problems are more closely spaced in Horizons.

 

I haven't tried R&S math, but it's my understanding  that it's a mastery program.  My girls, especially Rebecca (my unfortunate math guinea pig) thrive with spiral.  Otherwise I would probably get blank looks at review time.

 

***I'm going to jump back in here.  After looking at samples of Horizons 5th grade (and yes, I looked at Book 2 samples), it seems to me that CLE is stronger.  I see a bit here and there that is just different in scope and sequence, but for review purposes even, Rebecca is not doing single digit division problems.  Maybe I won't try Horizons for Pre-A.

 

Thanks for the clarification on your Horizons usage, Amber.  

 

FWIW, I've followed the reviews of Horizons Pre-A pretty closely and the consensus seems to be that it is challenging enough. The one major critique of it is that it takes some mental leaps throughout the course which works better for some students than others.  I'm still undecided for our dds after CLE 600.  We may stick with it through 800 or switch at that point.  ds12 used TabletClass Pre-A which he really liked.  But it is very challenging and not advised for all students, especially for those who need more review of elementary mathematics.  Derek Owens Pre-A is strong candidate I'll be looking at for them as well.

[dereksurfs]

I'm looking for a spiral math program that isn't a snooze fest. There's no reason for a 6yo to hate math, right? Dd is bright, but she does require frequent review when it comes to math. Hands-on is a plus. I like the idea of the games and activities with McRuffy.

 

Bucolic, 

 

Based on what you have stated here I think you have narrowed things down well.  The most significant question you are asking has to do with a 6yo hating math.  I don't like the idea of any child hating Math, almost more than I don't like the idea of any child hating their vegetables.  That said there are significant differences between these three programs.  It looks like McRuffy would be the most interactive, colorful, etc...  You may have to balance that desire for enjoyment or fun with other objectives and realities of life.  Since this is your oldest child with another baby on the way, will it be a very practical approach to take when instructing multiple children at once?  I know for my wife that would be a non-starter and she only instructs three at once.  This part is obviously subjective yet worth considering.  

 

CLE is the most independent program which is easily supplemented with more colorful manipulatives, math games, etc... as needed.  Although it is B&W it's approach is worlds apart from the worksheets of MM, which we still use as supplemental.  I'm not sure how teacher intensive Horizons is, but it does have color.  

 

If McRuffy is the most fun your dd will probably like it the most.  So with that in mind will it work for you and your family as well as her longer term?  Maybe a short or mid term trial would be worth a go?  Like one year.

[Aspasia]

Such good info! Thank you all!

 

I think I might be leaning toward McRuffy....but then the others still tempt me. Gah!

[RootAnn]

I don't know your teaching style, but I really need things laid out for me. If it isn't spelled out, hinted at in the TM, or otherwise planned for, it isn't going to get done consistently in my house. If you are like me, McRuffy puts it all together for you. If you have no trouble adding things in, you can certainly add the extra hands-on & games component to CLE & Horizons.

 

I love CLE. I think Horizons is great. I recommend one or the other based on what people are looking for. (In some cases, I also know when they DON'T want one or the other based on their descriptions.) Horizons might work out fine. CLE could be just what you are looking for down the road when you need your dd to be just a tad more independent with her math.

 

CLE & Horizons are pretty inexpensive to try out. McRuffy has a bit more of a price tag to try out. I'd just go ahead & get one and go for it. (And don't let your daughter know you are unsure about whether the program you are trying will work. Go in whole hog & really excited whatever it is you try.)

 

And don't forget to come back & let us know in a couple months how it is going.

[dereksurfs]

I'm curious if maybe you used the older black and white McRuffy, because I don't understand why you would consider it moving around a lot with seemingly no plan in place.  I have never had that feeling and I have used it for 4 years now.  My oldest used other things in his years at home and I feel McRuffy is just as well organized as any of them, if it's not better.

 

On to other thoughts, I looked at a Horizon sample today, I forget the grade level because I have been in and out of the house all day and look and run and look and run..lol  But anyway, those pages were sooooooo busy they would have made ME cry!  I can tell you I picked somewhere between k and 2nd to look at, I could see a kid who felt they disliked math really hating seeing all that work on a page every day, and it seemed most pages were multiple pages per day?  I may be off on that. 

 

Sommer, since you have used McRuffy for four years and have multiple children do you find it hard to juggle all those manipulatives, games, etc... while instructing various kids at differing levels?  Just curious what that looks like in a multi-child home?  Also, I've heard it mentioned that McRuffy has no testing.  If so how do you measure strengths, weaknesses, areas which could use more attention, etc..?

 

Thanks,

[8filltheheart]

On to other thoughts, I looked at a Horizon sample today, I forget the grade level because I have been in and out of the house all day and look and run and look and run..lol  But anyway, those pages were sooooooo busy they would have made ME cry!  I can tell you I picked somewhere between k and 2nd to look at, I could see a kid who felt they disliked math really hating seeing all that work on a page every day, and it seemed most pages were multiple pages per day?  I may be off on that. 

 

K-2 Horizons are 2 pages per day.   I'm not sure if it is 3rd or 4th that switches to 3 pages/day.   

 

[RootAnn]

K-2 Horizons are 2 pages per day.   I'm not sure if it is 3rd or 4th that switches to 3 pages/day.   

 

Horizons 3rd grade, book 1 still has two pages (front & back of one page) per day. (I couldn't find any of the other Horizons levels I have to check those. That's the only one I could find.)

[dereksurfs]

Thanks for the explanation of your teaching process with Mcruffy, Sommer.

[SilverMoon]

I have experience with Horizons 1 and 4-6 with three different kids. This is my second year with Horizons.

 

The 4th grade book expects 3 pages a day, and two pages every 11th lesson (technically a test). Usually the first page is half or more full of the box teaching the new concept.

 

The work volume comments make me scratch my head and make sure we're talking about the same books. Horizons, the one from Alpha Omega, has a sturdy volume of work that seems just right for my kids, but using *all* the extra practice listed in the TM would be pushing it. My 5yo kindergartner has kept up with the grade 1 book just fine, and frequently does two whole lessons a day on her own accord.

 

Horizons also has some of the calmest spiral pages I've seen, which Abeka nearly made me swear off. The boxes clearly separate sections, and each section has a very reasonable amount of problems. *shrug*

 

I also have zero prep time if I copy the extra practice pages before the new grade starts and keep the usual manipulatives on our school shelf. We just open the student text and do what's next for the most part.

 

I probably wouldn't recommend Horizons if you require a lot of hand holding as a teacher.

[SnMomof7]

We are another family that was using a mastery program (MUS) and despite knowing the content cold, it would be forgotten without enough ongoing review. We tried MM but ultimately ended up with CLE and love it. It isn't flashy, but my girls are so confident in their math abilities now,it's amazing! No needing to reteach entire concepts and topics again and again because they were forgotten due to lack of review. My girls don't think it's super boring, but then again, not everything is flashy fun and games here either :). My 2nd grader LOVES the story problems :).

[Mrs Twain]

I have used Horizons K-5th.  It is solid and high quality, if you follow the TM that is.  Some people just hand their kids the worksheets without the TM instruction and drill (speed tests, flashcards, etc.).  If that is how it is being used, it is not nearly as strong.

 

That said, the only parents who tend to like teaching Horizons are the ones who are good at math.  Parents who are lousy at math don't understand how to teach it.  I think this is mainly due to the lack of scripted-ness of the TM.  If you are terrible at math and need scripted lessons and/or DVD lectures, Horizons is not for you. 

 

My dh engineer husband really likes Horizons and is extremely happy with the results among our kids.  That is saying a lot considering how much of a math geek he is. 

 

We supplement Horizons math with CWP during the school year, as well as a mental math workbook during the summers.  I would add CWP to any math program since I think it is one of the best math supplements around.

[edeemarie]

Grr...every time I read one of these threads I spend the day kicking myself for leaving McRufffy!!!!

[ammv15]

I used Mcruffy Color Math for k and 1st.At the beginning of 1st I decided to give CLE a try after I heard great things about it.I liked CLE.It's a inexpensive solid math curriculum.It has lots of practice.Ultimately, we only did it for a week.We really missed Mcruffy.I wouldn't call Mcruffy light but it is painless.Mcruffy is math made easy.My dc are doing awesome with it.They are ahead of the public school students.Mcruffy is fun, hands on, and effective.Lessons are short and my dc can work pretty much independently.I plan to use through  5th grade.

[Tanikit]

I used Horizons K and 1 with my DD - she liked the colour, but from book 1 I had to decrease the number of problems she did each day as it was too repetitive for her. There were pages in Horizons 1 that required 4 pages a day - though very few - it was usually 2 pages a day. I use multiple math programs to keep my DD interested and stop her hating math - every program seems to become too much for her at some point and then we switch it up with a different one before coming back to the one that she was tired of, but that is just my daughter.

 

I haven't used the other two you mentioned.

[freesia]

I have used Horizons K-5th.  It is solid and high quality, if you follow the TM that is.  Some people just hand their kids the worksheets without the TM instruction and drill (speed tests, flashcards, etc.).  If that is how it is being used, it is not nearly as strong.

 

That said, the only parents who tend to like teaching Horizons are the ones who are good at math.  Parents who are lousy at math don't understand how to teach it.  I think this is mainly due to the lack of scripted-ness of the TM.  If you are terrible at math and need scripted lessons and/or DVD lectures, Horizons is not for you. 

 

My dh engineer husband really likes Horizons and is extremely happy with the results among our kids.  That is saying a lot considering how much of a math geek he is. 

 

We supplement Horizons math with CWP during the school year, as well as a mental math workbook during the summers.  I would add CWP to any math program since I think it is one of the best math supplements around.

I could have written this post (except the part about the engineering dh--he almost went engineering, though.LOL He ended up a math minor.)I am good at math and do sometimes teach the concepts in different ways--when a particular child isn't "jelling" with the way it's been presented. But I would do that with any math program.

 

I switched away for a year, but switched back this year. We supplement with CWP, but only bc I love how it stretches my dc to think. I would use it with any math program.

 

Oh, I should probably add, we start Horizons at 3rd grade, so I can't speak for younger (I taught first and second grade math for a decade so I have my own way to teaching it and use a lot of different materials. )

[Mommy22alyns]

Thanks for the clarification on your Horizons usage, Amber.  

 

FWIW, I've followed the reviews of Horizons Pre-A pretty closely and the consensus seems to be that it is challenging enough. The one major critique of it is that it takes some mental leaps throughout the course which works better for some students than others.  I'm still undecided for our dds after CLE 600.  We may stick with it through 800 or switch at that point.  ds12 used TabletClass Pre-A which he really liked.  But it is very challenging and not advised for all students, especially for those who need more review of elementary mathematics.  Derek Owens Pre-A is strong candidate I'll be looking at for them as well.

 

 

Hm, I've been considering TabletClass for Pre-A too.  If you stick with CLE, are you going to condense 700 and 800?  I'm just not sure how to do that.  I'm wanting to get a copy of Lial's Pre-A to look at it as well.

 

Sorry for the hijack!

[8filltheheart]

I have used Horizons K-5th.  It is solid and high quality, if you follow the TM that is.  Some people just hand their kids the worksheets without the TM instruction and drill (speed tests, flashcards, etc.).  If that is how it is being used, it is not nearly as strong.

 

That said, the only parents who tend to like teaching Horizons are the ones who are good at math.  Parents who are lousy at math don't understand how to teach it.  I think this is mainly due to the lack of scripted-ness of the TM.  If you are terrible at math and need scripted lessons and/or DVD lectures, Horizons is not for you. 

 

My dh engineer husband really likes Horizons and is extremely happy with the results among our kids.  That is saying a lot considering how much of a math geek he is. 

 

We supplement Horizons math with CWP during the school year, as well as a mental math workbook during the summers.  I would add CWP to any math program since I think it is one of the best math supplements around.

 

The part about parents weak in math is what I was attempting to allude to in my post.   If someone needs everything spelled out to them as to what the purpose of an activity is and why they should be teaching the skill, Horizons is probably not the program for them..  

 

I personally only use the TM's for grading and the only for 3rd up.   My kids have never used any of the drills or flashcards, etc that are in the TM, so I don't know that I agree with taht part. 

 

OP.....fwiw, my dh is an engineer and has never looked at the books.  ;)  LOL!!   BUT.....my oldest is an engineer and the program he used for elementary was Horizons.  :)

[dereksurfs]

Hm, I've been considering TabletClass for Pre-A too.  If you stick with CLE, are you going to condense 700 and 800?  I'm just not sure how to do that.  I'm wanting to get a copy of Lial's Pre-A to look at it as well.

 

Sorry for the hijack!

 

Amber,

 

That is a tough question.  To be honest I've thought about accelerating 700 & 800 through only using select light units, maybe condensing down to 1.5 years.  I've looked at the S&S pretty closely in comparing it with other Pre-A programs and don't think only one could be used like 700 for example as some have done.  I mean a child could still limp along and/or struggle more once in Algebra 1.  But I really don't see just one as adequate preparation.  CLE 700 'plus' another Pre-A is another option or hybrid approach overlapping them then moving completely to the other program to finish things out.  That is where tailoring will come in with each daughter to see how they are doing and how much they can handle once we get there.  

 

Honestly as much as we liked TabletClass for ds12 I'm just not sure they will be able to handle it, at least not right after CLE 600.  Its not so much what CLE may be lacking but rather what maturity level they will need to be at for that kind of challenge.  Luke was ready for it and chomping at the bit for more challenging work, even at an earlier age.  I just don't know if they will be there.  I think the same thing holds true for programs like AoPS.  They are not for every student, even if good at math.

[KnSmith6]

What did you end up choosing?!?!  I have been 'fretting' over math programs for my 1st grader next year and finally decided to order Horizons yesterday.....then remembered Mcruffy after the fact!  ugh.  We did Saxon 1 and 2 this year and he was so bored.  He wants color.  I was hesitant about horizons because I have heard the TM isn't great at guiding (not that I will need much at his level, but stil) and it may gloss over the WHY of math.  Now of course I am second guessing my decision!    Curious which you went with and how you liked it?!!!