Kinesthetic learners

[LaughingCat]

I did not start looking at her reading at the early age you are (I naively thought the school would take care of all that) so DD was older (9)  when she did LIPs but she did (and does) have trouble with working memory.  And the kind of dance you're doing is similar to why I waffled so long on LIPs.  Is it working memory? Is it trouble hearing?  What does LIPS do for this anyway?   And DD could almost pass (failing the Barton test by 1 below the required multiple times over the years).

 

 

 

 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

The bridging material is awesome. I literally jumped up off of the couch and yelled when I read it. We had tried teaching the concept for weeks using a different curricula....and that curricula had gotten it wrong. I taught the bridging stuff a la Ronit Bird and ds was like, "of course."

 

***sigh***

 

Sorry for the side note, but it was one of those validating moments that there is always a way for our kids to learn, we just have to be persistent in finding it. (And, also, that there are a lot of math book writers that don't really get math and how to teach it.)

[Lecka]

OhElizabeth: do you think his working memory is a problem with all tasks or only auditory/verbal tasks?

 

If his working memory for visual tasks is fine, then I question if it is really about working memory.

 

For my son -- he has problems with auditory inputs and verbal outputs sometimes. He has some rote memory problems.

 

It is not the same as working memory as far as I can tell.

 

I don't think part c is inappropriate for a 5-year-old. I think that is the youngest age, though.

 

I don't think these programs are increasing working memory. I think they are teaching things in a learnable way to decrease working memory demands.

 

I think you can have a low working memory and still learn to read, the method will just need to account for that, and I think need to not make any jumps or leaps, that could overwhelm working memory if things are not solid.

 

That is my guess or impression.

 

I mean, it is a speech/reading intervention (sorry but I do call it a speech intervention, maybe I will stop so as not to mislead), it is not a working memory intervention.

 

That is really just speculation, though. I don't actually know.

[LaughingCat]

Working memory is the ability to hold multiple things in your memory and manipulate them.  It is possible to have trouble with only auditory or only visual working memory.  You can even have trouble holding only certain types of visual and/or auditory and not others.    As something becomes "2nd nature" you can "chunk" multiple pieces of information together and then your working memory is able to treat what is really multiple pieces of information as one. 

 

In terms of the Barton C test - working memory could affect it because you need to hold the sounds and compare them to each other.  This is the same argument I made to myself for DD.

 

I do not believe LIPs increases working memory.  It may help you "chunk" the sounds, but it would actually seem to me to do the opposite - by adding an additional step of "feeling" the sound in your mouth.  But it still might work that way as "chunks" can hold quite a bit of info.   I just think of it as working by teaching all the base sounds directly, logically and kinesthetically instead of assuming the child is inferring them from hearing them.  

 

Regarding the speech vs. reading thing - the reason I am against calling it a speech program is because if you follow the program as is, even just the early parts, you will not be working on speech directly at all.  You will be learning mouth movements that go with various sounds and then using your mouth to "feel" the sounds within a word you hear.  LIPs "targets critical reading skills including phonological awareness, decoding, and spelling " (from the Super Duper site).     This is not to say that the mouth movements could not be used to improve speech (in fact it seems obvious that they could) but that would have either inferred indirectly from the program while it taught phonological awareness or something you created on your own utilizing the LIPS mouth movements.  Speech is not explicitly taught in the program.  

 

The comments and literature showing that LIPs is useful for apraxia/speech actually leaned me toward LIPS because DD does have articulation issues.  In fact, I told DD we were doing it for speech reasons (and might get some reading benefit - the opposite of what I am saying LOL) because I knew she'd fight the program if it was done for reading.  However DD's articulation was only slightly improved by the program done as written whereas there was clear improvement in the reading related activities it proactively taught.

[Lecka]

Phonogical awareness is also needed for speech, though. That is not only a reading skill.

 

My son's speech was poor as a result of poor phonogical awareness, to a large extent.

 

They also say they have students who have had difficult-to-treat articulation errors make progress with the lips approach.

 

It matters to me because my son had 2 years of ineffective speech therapy before he started this approach. So I think it matters that it is also an intervention for speech.

 

The woman who wrote it was a speech therapist, also. That was her background for getting into writing programs to help children with learning disabilities.

 

But I would hate to discourage someone from using it, by making them think it is just for speech, so I will post accordingly!

 

(Plus I am not an actual user. I looked into it a lot and saw some samples, and it was the same techniques as his good speech therapy.)

[Lecka]

/serial

 

I looked out of curiousity, and in the full title it says "for reading, spelling, and speech."

 

Lindamood phoneme sequencing program for reading, spelling, and speech.

 

They did put speech last and reading first, which probably says something.

[LaughingCat]

Maybe I am too focused on my own experience with speech therapy (for DD)  - which did not include any focus on phonological awareness at all, in spite of a difficult to treat articulation issue (no progress at all) and multiple SLP's pulled in to talk to/listen/test DD  (and my repeated assertion that she was a struggling reader).   DD's speech therapy was all focused on her ability to repeat various sounds/words to the SLP's satisfaction (and ways for her to say it correctly if she didn't).    

 

LIPS doesn't feel like DD's ST at all - it's focus is on differentiating the different parts of a heard or read word.  It associates the sounds to letters and has clear references to letters/reading/spelling from the beginning.  And it has two tracks: one in which you learn all the letters/sounds & lip/tongue/breath correlations first (this is what we did and is the straight through the manual track), and one in which you only learn a few and then immediately jump into reading/spelling.     And there is a lot of similarity to Barton Level 1 (which is more scripted and slower but of course no lip/tongue/breath correlations).  It feels like a reading program to me.

 

However, I noticed just now the subtitle of my manual is "Program for Reading, Spelling and Speech"  :laugh:

ETA: HA! HA! just saw Lecka's last post -  my post was sitting in the editor for a while - I should have refreshed before posting to see if anyone had written anything else

 

 

[PeterPan]

I think it would be accurate to say that the ST my ds gets with PROMPT goes WAY beyond the surface and most visible explanations LIPS is using.  In that sense it's not a speech program, yes.  However I totally agree that our kids with speech problems are going to benefit from slowing it down and making all the connections.  But take the sound /sh/ in english.  With PROMPT we've spent MONTHS and months and months on this, because we learned to round then brought the tongue up, then...  I mean seriously, it's this whole long ordeal.  LIPS, with it's 15 mouth cards, isn't that detailed.  That's fine, because it's not substituting for our ST time.

 

Well I'm so glad y'all pushed me on this.  I'm excited about the materials, and from what you're saying Laughing Cat I'm definitely on the right track.  It's really erie when you talk with someone and they say x number of years ago I thought the same thing, made a choice, and this is how it panned out...  I try to do that for people when I've btdt, so I appreciate you saying that for me.  Definitely erie and compelling. 

 

Oh, Lecka, you asked about whether the working memory was just auditory.  I know it's at least auditory, because it came up in Earobics.  I'm don't recall what modalities we were most hitting with those MFW preschool activities.  They'd do things like have you lay out a field of Laurie shapes and then give directions with multiple steps or some complexity.  That's when I realized his working memory wasn't age-typical, because he was stumbling on activities designed to be age-appropriate.  We did more work on it for a while, but you could tell it was really crunchy.  He can't yet clap to a metronome (way too impulsive, hehe!), so I can't do some of the things I later did with dd.  Anyways, I *assume* he'll have low working memory in all categories, not just one.  But I don't think you can infer too much from that.  My dd had low working memory, but she would have been able to do the Barton pre-test I think.  It's not like you have to have that much, lol, just 3 or 4 digits.

[geodob]

OhE, I was most interested in your reply, and that signing seems to be more intuitive or natural for him.

Where I appreciate your concern about over reliance on signing, causing a delay development of speaking.

Though what signing provides him with, is a different way to concieve of language.

Where I would highlight its potential for him to more intuitively access and concieve of language.

As a primary foundation.

Where he can explore language and develop an understanding of how it is constructed.

Along with confidence in his ability to express himself.

Where this can provide a 'terms of reference' for him to explore spoken language?

So that when he encounters difficulties with speech?  

He can then consider any particular speech difficulty in relation to its usage in signing?

 

Perhaps you could consider two scenarios?

One where one has a speech difficulty, and nothing to compare it with?

Secondly, being fluent in sign language, but having a difficulty with speech?

 

Where crucially in the second scenario, one would have an insight into ones speech difficulties.

 

 

[PeterPan]

OhE, I was most interested in your reply, and that signing seems to be more intuitive or natural for him.

Where I appreciate your concern about over reliance on signing, causing a delay development of speaking.

Though what signing provides him with, is a different way to concieve of language.

Where I would highlight its potential for him to more intuitively access and concieve of language.

As a primary foundation.

Where he can explore language and develop an understanding of how it is constructed.

Along with confidence in his ability to express himself.

Where this can provide a 'terms of reference' for him to explore spoken language?

So that when he encounters difficulties with speech?  

He can then consider any particular speech difficulty in relation to its usage in signing?

 

Perhaps you could consider two scenarios?

One where one has a speech difficulty, and nothing to compare it with?

Secondly, being fluent in sign language, but having a difficulty with speech?

 

Where crucially in the second scenario, one would have an insight into ones speech difficulties.

This is absolutely fascinating to ponder.  What you're really saying is that if we had kept up with the sign (or if we worked on it the right way right now) he might be able to SIGN beyond what he expresses, as the signing would come more easily for him, bypassing the barriers.  That has been the whole crux of our confusion, that it's extremely hard to look at him, even with the success we've had with ST, and know if what we're seeing is the extent of him or whether there's a lot MORE hidden underneath.  

 

Fascinating suggestion.  I think some signs for emotions might be the place to start.  Right now I ask him how he feels, and sometimes he has words, sometimes he doesn't.  Sometimes the way he feels is really hard to express with words, like when your sensory is off and you're banging or wanting to crunch or bite and are just really out of sorts.  

[Heathermomster]

OhE, How does the motor control issue of speech, tongue, and lips affect hands?  Are his hands affected?  

 

I used baby signs with both my kids.  We only used the basics like thirsty, hungry, please, thank-you, and stop.  P didn't use them as long as DS because she spoke sooner.  DS started using them with me when he was 10.5 months old.  You could use simple signs with your son and maybe picture cards that he can point to and describe his mood.  

 

I think I understand what Geoff is saying.  I'm just not sure that ASL is really necessary right now.  If your DS gets frustrated easily, then maybe simple signs would help.  Simple signs are not the same as ASL though.  

 

There is another OG reading program called Slingerland.  Slingerland uses a heavy kinesthetic component with phonics.  Son's reading tutor taught Slingerland prior to Wilson and LOVED it...

[PeterPan]

OhE, How does the motor control issue of speech, tongue, and lips affect hands?  Are his hands affected?  

 

I used baby signs with both my kids.  We only used the basics like thirsty, hungry, please, thank-you, and stop.  P didn't use them as long as DS because she spoke sooner.  DS started using them with me when he was 10.5 months old.  You could use simple signs with your son and maybe picture cards that he can point to and describe his mood.  

 

I think I understand what Geoff is saying.  I'm just not sure that ASL is really necessary right now.  If your DS gets frustrated easily, then maybe simple signs would help.  Simple signs are not the same as ASL though.  

 

There is another OG reading program called Slingerland.  Slingerland uses a heavy kinesthetic component with phonics.  Son's reading tutor taught Slingerland prior to Wilson and LOVED it...

Heather, you're correct that you can have verbal apraxia, oral apraxia, global dyspraxia, etc., and that all are about motor control and the ability to do what you're trying to do.  We haven't done an OT eval yet.  One more thing... Anyways, we haven't done one yet, so I can't say that there's not any other praxis.  In *general* though it's not on my radar.  He appears to have the ability to imitate motions, and that's a major symptom, as far as I know, with praxis.  So with his speech, he cannot imitate his way into speech.  But with hand motions, yes he can imitate.  Dd on the other hand cannot.  And no, she didn't get a dyspraxia label.  The OT didn't even mention it in her write-up, which is totally odd as she spent time talking with me about it during the evals.  So yes I'm aware of the issue but no I don't *think* ds has any other praxis beyond the verbal apraxia.  Actually there's some fancy name for his label (dysphagia?), I don't know.  It's on the papers for the DSM codes.  

 

No, I wouldn't use any simple signs for basic communication, because he has all that.  What I was thinking was that if I were really brilliant, I could actually use it to bridge into MORE ADVANCED communication than even what he puts out now.  That's what fascinated me, the idea that he could pull out things he doesn't express verbally yet.  This *does* happen with kids who sign, because I remember Rachel of Signing Time mentioning it in an interview.  I don't know if I'll even do it, but it's a fascinating idea that gets me to thinking.

 

Now I'm going to have to go look at Slingerland!   :D

 

Btw, there was a gap between ds' receptive use of ASL and expressive when we started him.  It took him a while before he started actively signing the things he knew.  

[Lecka]

Laughing Cat, my son had 2 years of really ineffective speech therapy that was just about trying to get him to say sounds. When he went to the speech clinic it was like night and day. He did not make any progress.

 

It was not until we had the different approach that he made progress.

 

The speech therapy he had been having was not doing anything for him, and he was not understood by a lot of people, so it was a pretty big problem.

[PeterPan]

That's pretty typical of apraxia.  With no ability to imitate, the dc can't benefit from imitation-based therapies, flashcards, etc.  He actually has to have someone touch him, tell him what to do, SOMETHING that goes beyond imitation.

[PeterPan]

 

There is another OG reading program called Slingerland.  Slingerland uses a heavy kinesthetic component with phonics.  Son's reading tutor taught Slingerland prior to Wilson and LOVED it...

Heather, I spent some time on the Slingerland site, but I couldn't find what was kinesthetic.  Is there something parents or homeschoolers can buy?  They seem very invested in protecting their therapy-driven structure, wanting you to do CEUs and spend tons of money... 

[geodob]

OhE,  coming back to math, their is a finger counting technique based on the Soroban.  

Which can be used to count up to 99. Perhaps you could try doing it yourself?

 

Form a fist with your left hand, and palm facing up.

For 1, extend your little finger.

Then extend the next finger alongside it for 2.

Followed by the next finger for 3, and the last finger for a group of 4.

 

Importantly, I would ask you to observe this 'feels'?

With 2,3 or 4 fingers touching each other, you would feel them as a 'group' of 2,3 or 4.

 

Then for 5, close your fingers and extend your thumb.

We can then use the fingers again, and count up to 9.

 

For 10, we carry this over to the right hand.

Extending the little finger.

So that the fingers on the right hand, can be used to count: 10,20,30 and 40.

Closing them and extending the thumb as 50.

Where the fingers on the right hand, can then be used to count: 60, 70, 80, 90.

 

This is purely a kinesthetic approach to numbers, where no doubt you could put your hands under the table and just as easily form numbers with them.

Where the numbers are felt.

With practicing this way of counting, importantly it develops a 'motor memory' of the numbers.

So that one no longer has to physically form numbers with the hands.  

As each number is associated with its motor memory.

Mental math can then be done as motor memory process.

 

Crucially, this provides a way of concieving of numbers as representing different sized groups.

This is the major issue with 'math difficulties', where numbers aren't concieved of as groups. So that 3 is seen as the name of the object, next to the object called 2.

 But if you extend 3 fingers?

Then you will sense them as group of 3.  

[Heathermomster]

Heather, I spent some time on the Slingerland site, but I couldn't find what was kinesthetic.  Is there something parents or homeschoolers can buy?  They seem very invested in protecting their therapy-driven structure, wanting you to do CEUs and spend tons of money... 

It's an OG type reading program designed for the classroom.  My friend attended training in Washington while her DH was stationed there.  I don't believe the program is really set up for homeschoolers and training takes some time.  You can attend a basic OG class for about a week in my area.  I don't know the exact details.

 

With Slingerland, an example of the kinesthetic portion can be observed while the students speak aloud and literally air writes the phonograms and words they are speaking and spelling.  The teacher learns to air write backwards as she faces the child/classroom and teaches.  It's interesting.  There are many facets to the program, and I'm certainly not doing it justice.

 

I can't find the book right now.  A teacher by the name of Jan Fell Greene uses movements and hand gestures while tutoring.  Students incorporate specific movements as they learn to sound out, read, and spell.  It's shocking really how simple movement affects learning.  

 

Don't go down any more rabbit holes.  Stick with LIPs for now.  

 

 

[Soror]

I hesitate to respond being a newbie here but have you looked at LoE? You could look just at the games book but in the Foundations level especially she has very specific work incorporating kinesthetic movement. She actually hits every style very well. She has them practice gross motor movements, feeling their mouth and throat for the sounds and syllables, running around and jumping in various games. It might be worth checking into, I would think you could use the SWR phonograms w/ the games if you wished they are slightly different. Also fwiw, she has sandpaper letters as well.

[PeterPan]

I hesitate to respond being a newbie here but have you looked at LoE? You could look just at the games book but in the Foundations level especially she has very specific work incorporating kinesthetic movement. She actually hits every style very well. She has them practice gross motor movements, feeling their mouth and throat for the sounds and syllables, running around and jumping in various games. It might be worth checking into, I would think you could use the SWR phonograms w/ the games if you wished they are slightly different. Also fwiw, she has sandpaper letters as well.

Sorry, somehow I missed this until now!  Good point!  I talked with the LoE author a year or two ago at the convention, before she brought out her Foundations level, and I could see what you're saying, that she does try to have activities across modalities.  Rocket Phonics (Guffanti) was over the top awesome with kinesthetic stuff as well, and there it was more fully woven in.  It just wasn't that real traditional OG I was looking for.  Anyways, thanks for the reminder, as it's a good one!  :)

[Citrusheights5]

For my kinesthetic learners, I find that the numbers and operations have to mean something-.   If they can hold it- manipulate- build it- rotate it- actually make it DO something, then they can learn it.   Best thing I have found is Dice or dominoes.  It fixes the number in their mind, with out having an actual symbol. 3+1 is there. you can point at them, count them, fell them.   My son told me, he can look at the three die, and see the dot move above one side, and actually add in the one and see the 4 die in his head.  This is so so far from where he was with just print, and an auditory approach.   

 

For my kid, cuisenarie rods never worked, as they were meant to represent the symbol, but there wasn't enough "there" to grasp- it was meant to represent a number 4.  With the dice or dominoes, they could see the dots, and realize that one more meant 5, and one less meant 3, but they all LOOKED different, so and so he could fix the numbers visually in his head, as well as actually manipulate the numbers.  Since playing dominoes- he now has his basis of 5, and 10's as well as all additions up to 12, Huge progress from just learning to count from 1-20!! And it means something... that is how you win, by getting as many combinations of 5 10 15 as you can and just depending on 5 +0 and 5+5 is not enough to get you the win.    

 

He may be too young to grasp all the concepts I am giving, but I wanted to explain what kinesthetic and visual means in my house with my boys. and it doesn't necessarily mean movement, it means "doing".