Feeling pressured

[Freckles]

I've been feeling pressured lately to have my dd take Algebra in the eighth grade next year instead of pre-algebra. She will not be an engineering major and math is not her strongest subject. I took Algebra in the ninth grade and still graduated from college with a Science degree. Our public schools push Algebra in the 8th. My older daughter who is a Freshman did this, and now she is in Geometry in the public HS.  I guess I'm asking are there any Hive members that agree or understand my viewpoint that another year of building a solid foundation before starting Algebra is a benefit?

 

 

And if you do, what is your favorite pre-algebra curriculum? We are using ABeka Basic Math this year, but I'm looking at CLE for next year.

[redsquirrel]

Well of course it is better to keep her in pre-A if she isn't ready to move on to Algebra. I have a friend whose kid is prob going to be 10th grade when she hits Algebra. I know other families whose kids are ready for Algebra in 6th grade.

 

I think if a kid is ready for Algebra in 8th then great and if not, no harm done in waiting. I think as long as whatever is done is done with thoughtful intention about the student and what she really needs then it is the right decision.

 

There are a lot of great pre-A programs out there. I am not someone who likes changing programs so I would prob look to the Algebra program I thought was a good match and see if it has a pre-A program I like. I am not saying that is the right way to proceed, just how I would start.

[5LittleMonkeys]

My second oldest won't be ready for Algebra until 10th.  She has struggled a lot with math in the past but she is finally working steadily and making progress with solid understanding.  I have no intention of undoing all her hard work by pushing her to be at the same level as her peers or at grade level decided by a set of standards that we don't follow anyway. I really don't care what grade she does the work in as long as the understanding is there.  We will continue to progress at her speed and if she is taking Alg. 2 in 12th grade then so be it...I will have the peace of mind knowing that I prepared her well to pursue higher maths after graduation if her chosen career requires it. 

[Freckles]

Thank you! I feel better already.

[OneStepAtATime]

Public schools are on an arbitrary time line that really doesn't have a whole lot of basis in scientific fact.  Kids develop at different rates in different areas and some need a great deal more explicit instruction and additional time to learn material.  If they are never given that time and extra instruction, then they MIGHT pass a test on the subject, but the grade is meaningless.  It doesn't truly reflect what they know and understand.  They actually may never really understand the material and it will always feel like one of those areas that they just don't have any ability in.  If they are given the extra time, the more explicit instruction, maybe trying various approaches without time pressure, it may end up being a subject they really "get" and possibly even enjoy.  I can attest to this firsthand.  

 

 I did very, very poorly in pre-algebra in middle school and felt that I was a failure at math.  Honestly, I probably needed more time and more explicit instruction in basic math, which I never got.  As the elementary years passed and I wasn't given extra time and instruction at the earlier levels, the problem compounded itself.  Even though I made A's and B's those grades did not reflect my understanding or automaticy in math.  By 8th grade those weaknesses and gaps caught up with me.   It was hard to take since I considered myself a good student.  Thankfully, though, because I struggled in 8th grade pre-algebra, in High School they allowed me to take Algebra 1 over a two year period.  Having that extra time was the best thing that could have happened to me.  I made A's, but more importantly, I finally understood Algebra.  I had a great teacher, who took a lot of extra time to just review, present the info in different ways, etc.  I not only finally understood it, I enjoyed it.  I would never have gotten to that point if I had been rushed through when I was not ready.  If I had been allowed to take Pre-Algebra at a slower pace, I probably could have done Algebra at a normal pace.  I just needed extra time and instruction to get the material.

 

I wholeheartedly agree that you need to give your child the extra time they need to understand Algebra (and any other subject, actually).  Ask yourself what your goal is.  Do you want your child to gain real understanding in an important subject (we actually use algebra a lot in life even though it isn't always readily apparent), gain confidence in her ability to learn something which does not come easily (thus developing the resiliency to keep trying even when things don't go smoothly in other areas as well), and to learn that there is value in truly mastering a subject instead of just surviving it, even if it takes more time and effort?  Or is your goal to follow what someone you never met and who has never met your child has arbitrarily stated is supposed to be the subject your child should be learning, even when you know the child is not ready?

 

Sorry if I sound too strong.  This is a somewhat touchy subject for me.  :)   Good luck to you both and best wishes.

 

 

 

 

[Freckles]

Public schools are on an arbitrary time line that really doesn't have a whole lot of basis in scientific fact.  Kids develop at different rates in different areas and some need a great deal more explicit instruction and additional time to learn material.  If they are never given that time and extra instruction, then they MIGHT pass a test on the subject, but the grade is meaningless.  It doesn't truly reflect what they know and understand.  They actually may never really understand the material and it will always feel like one of those areas that they just don't have any ability in.  If they are given the extra time, the more explicit instruction, maybe trying various approaches without time pressure, it may end up being a subject they really "get" and possibly even enjoy.  I can attest to this firsthand.  

 

 I did very, very poorly in pre-algebra in middle school and felt that I was a failure at math.  Honestly, I probably needed more time and more explicit instruction in basic math, which I never got.  As the elementary years passed and I wasn't given extra time and instruction at the earlier levels, the problem compounded itself.  Even though I made A's and B's those grades did not reflect my understanding or automaticy in math.  By 8th grade those weaknesses and gaps caught up with me.   It was hard to take since I considered myself a good student.  Thankfully, though, because I struggled in 8th grade pre-algebra, in High School they allowed me to take Algebra 1 over a two year period.  Having that extra time was the best thing that could have happened to me.  I made A's, but more importantly, I finally understood Algebra.  I had a great teacher, who took a lot of extra time to just review, present the info in different ways, etc.  I not only finally understood it, I enjoyed it.  I would never have gotten to that point if I had been rushed through when I was not ready.  If I had been allowed to take Pre-Algebra at a slower pace, I probably could have done Algebra at a normal pace.  I just needed extra time and instruction to get the material.

 

I wholeheartedly agree that you need to give your child the extra time they need to understand Algebra (and any other subject, actually).  Ask yourself what your goal is.  Do you want your child to gain real understanding in an important subject (we actually use algebra a lot in life even though it isn't always readily apparent), gain confidence in her ability to learn something which does not come easily (thus developing the resiliency to keep trying even when things don't go smoothly in other areas as well), and to learn that there is value in truly mastering a subject instead of just surviving it, even if it takes more time and effort?  Or is your goal to follow what someone you never met and who has never met your child has arbitrarily stated is supposed to be the subject your child should be learning, even when you know the child is not ready?

 

Sorry if I sound too strong.  This is a somewhat touchy subject for me.   :)   Good luck to you both and best wishes.

 

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

[Lori D.]

I also know a lot of families who had their students take Algebra 1 in 8th grade -- and end up having the students re-take Algebra 1 in 9th grade, because they were shaky in it. Our math-minded DS took Algebra in 8th and did great. Our math-struggler DS took Algebra 1 in 9th -- and re-took it for the first half of 10th grade to make sure he had a firm foundation before moving on.

 

The higher maths (high school math courses) really require a solid foundation in preparatory skills AND a certain level of mental development. Only you, the parent, know your student well enough to know if your student has both of those elements in place and is ready for Algebra. And as previous posters mentioned, at one extreme, that may be as early as 6th grade; at the other extreme, it may not be until 10th-12th grade.

 

And whatever you decide, remember, you have flexibility! :)

- You can give Algebra a try, and always set it aside if it's not working.

- Or, work at it at "half speed" and take 8th and 9th to complete it.

- Or, consider trying a Pre-Algebra program from a very different perspective than whatever publisher you have been using -- one that really encourages a lot of math thinking and making math connections -- and make it a year to explore and expand in math abilities. :)

 

BEST of luck, whatever you decide! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

:rant:

TOTALLY just my personal "rant" or aside -- NOTHING to do with OP or any of the previous posters! ;) BUT... I think there is such a *pressure* in our society to do Algebra at an ever-earlier age, when the reality is that the logic and abstract processing portions of the average student's brain STILL don't start maturing until between 12-14yo. Why push our students to do something early, before they are ready, when it will be tears, sweat and struggle (and development of an intense dislike for math), when waiting a year (or two) allows them them to mature the skills that will allow them to take the math in stride... Baffling...

[OneStepAtATime]

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

Truly I wish you both the very best.  Being a parent and knowing the right path is not easy.  The fact that you even asked the question shows how much you care and are attuned to your child.  She is blessed to have you.  Good luck!

[Freckles]

I'm so happy to know I'm not alone in my thinking. I did not have a strong foundation in computation, and when I got to higher level math I really struggled because it took me so long to do the portion of the problem that should have been automatic by that time in my education. I want my girls to be solid in their understanding of subjects.

[OneStepAtATime]

I'm so happy to know I'm not alone in my thinking. I did not have a strong foundation in computation, and when I got to higher level math I really struggled because it too me so long to do the portion of the problem that should have been automatic by that time in my education. I want my girls to be solid in their understanding of subjects.

Here, here!!!  :)

[abacus2]

I know Algebra I in 8th is becoming more common, but I am surprised to see so many people expect it as the norm. I was an advanced 8th grade math student who got special permission to take Algebra I, to the near universal amazement of everyone I knew. Taking Algebra I in 9th is completely fine, leaving the student on track to complete Pre-calculus in high school if so desired.

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

 

 

:rant:

TOTALLY just my personal "rant" or aside -- NOTHING to do with OP or any of the previous posters! ;) BUT... I think there is such a *pressure* in our society to do Algebra at an ever-earlier age, when the reality is that the logic and abstract processing portions of the average student's brain STILL don't start maturing until between 12-14yo. Why push our students to do something early, before they are ready, when it will be tears, sweat and struggle (and development of an intense dislike for math), when waiting a year (or two) allows them them to mature the skills that will allow them to take the math in stride... Baffling...

 

 

This deserves to be repeated.  Again, and again, and again...not only for math but other skill based subjects as well.  :)

[Lori D.]

I just wanted to add -- even classical educators who stress rigor do NOT support doing algebra and other higher level courses at ever-lower grade levels.

 

I was just at the 2-day conference where SWB and 4 other classical school educators spoke, and they ALL stressed that "rigor" did NOT mean having students doing high school work in the lower grades. As SWB said re: that trend, "So, what, we'll eventually have 3rd graders doing Algebra?!" And Dan Coupland of Hillsdale College shared a quote from Plato's Republic, book 7, in which Plato says [with me loosely paraphrasing here, lol] that introducing the higher concepts to students who are too *young* to properly handle them can backfire, causing them to actually disregard the higher material AND scorn learning as a life-long pursuit.

 

And wouldn't that be a terrible result, as I would guess that a big goal for most homeschoolers is helping our children learn how to be life-long learners... :(

 

Okay, now I really AM done with my rant, and getting off my soapbox.  :tongue_smilie:

[Mom0012]

I like CLE, but their prealgebra is done over 2 years -- CLE 7 & 8. My son jumped from halfway through CLE 8 to their algebra program, though, and it has been smooth sailing. I love CLE. I only wish they had Sunrise editions of their materials beyond algebra because it seems like such a perfect fit for my son.

[ondreeuh]

I'm putting my middle child through a 3-year pre-algebra sequence - courses 1, 2, and 3 of a middle school math program. I know there is a lot of overlap but I think he needs the extra time to feel completely successful and have a FIRM foundation for algebra in 9th grade. Our district even has a 2-year algebra option which we may use if it seems appropriate. He is probably not a kid who will want to take math beyond algebra 2, so getting a head start won't benefit him any.

 

My oldest took algebra in 8th but she missed two months of school near the end of her junior year due to surgeries. She was able to drop the math and focus on her other subjects. So she is taking pre-calc again this year as a senior and I'm not even concerned or worried. It is fine.

 

I took algebra in 7th (very unusual at my school) without taking pre-algebra first. I did OK but after getting through pre-calc in 10th I just had enough. I honestly was resentful that being accelerated just meant I was expected to take MORE math. I intended to just take a year off (took a 2nd language instead) but plans changed and I graduated with only 2 years of high school math. I took statistics in college because I had to, but I've never felt like any of it stuck. What a waste.

 

Now I have a kindergartener who seems to be quite mathy, but I'm tempted to go wide & deep with him to avoid rushing ahead.

[Tiramisu]

I have my dd who went through CLE up to the middle of the 800 level before we switched into Saxon algebra for 8th. She is doing fine, mostly (only?) because I am sitting beside her catching her errors and speeding her along. She was much more independent with CLE but has always been slow in getting through her math. She may go to a brick and mortar high school and I'm considering the option of putting having her repeat algebra 1, possibly in the form of honors algebra 1, but I'll have to see how the year progresses. FWIW, I may do the same for Latin and have her start out in Latin 1 and let her enjoy an easier transition.

[PollyOR]

My 15yodd chose to go to public high school this year.  When we met with the counselor we were told that Algebra 1 was her only option.  15yo and I both knew she wasn't ready.  They put her in an Algebra 1 class that meets every day and it has been so hard for her.  Her 18yo sister tutors her every evening.   

 

Just one more year would have made a big difference for 15yo.  But, nope.  They wouldn't budge.  It's about requirements not the individual student's needs.  

 

 

[Freckles]

My 15yodd chose to go to public high school this year.  When we met with the counselor we were told that Algebra 1 was her only option.  15yo and I both knew she wasn't ready.  They put her in an Algebra 1 class that meets every day and it has been so hard for her.  Her 18yo sister tutors her every evening.   

 

Just one more year would have made a big difference for 15yo.  But, nope.  They wouldn't budge.  It's about requirements not the individual student's needs.  

 

I'm sorry she is having to go through that. I'm glad your older daughter is able to help. I'm pretty lucky that math is so easy for my husband. That is his area of expertise that I lean on. I hope your dd has a successful year!

[Tiramisu]

Since a few years ago all students in our state must start in algebra one. Those who aren't ready are given an extra class, called a lab, I think. It does tell you something if they are putting all kids in algebra one or above, even those who aren't ready for it.

 

It was once said on these boards maybe by Regentrude, though I'm not sure, that if students have trouble in higher level science and math classes, it is not unusual that the problem is that their algebra one foundation isn't solid enough. Sorry if I'm paraphrasing poorly, but I think that was the gist.

[regentrude]

It was once said on these boards maybe by Regentrude, though I'm not sure, that if students have trouble in higher level science and math classes, it is not unusual that the problem is that their algebra one foundation isn't solid enough. Sorry if I'm paraphrasing poorly, but I think that was the gist.

 

That is absolutely correct. The students who struggle with math in my physics courses do not have trouble with the calculus part - they have trouble with prealgebra and algebra: working with fractions, solving systems of equations - things they should have mastered early in high school.  And those are students who major in science and engineering, so would be considered strong in math.

These math difficulties cause to spend an undue amount of time and brain power on figuring out the math, which leaves them preoccupied and unable to think about the deeper physics. Many difficulties with chemistry also stem from an insufficient mastery of prealgebra: there is nothing to stoichiometry for a student who understands ratios.

[Chrysalis Academy]

That is absolutely correct. The students who struggle with math in my physics courses do not have trouble with the calculus part - they have trouble with prealgebra and algebra: working with fractions, solving systems of equations - things they should have mastered early in high school.  And those are students who major in science and engineering, so would be considered strong in math.

These math difficulties cause to spend an undue amount of time and brain power on figuring out the math, which leaves them preoccupied and unable to think about the deeper physics. Many difficulties with chemistry also stem from an insufficient mastery of prealgebra: there is nothing to stoichiometry for a student who understands ratios.

 

There really are no shortcuts, are there?   Raising hand here, I never really understood ratios . . . and I never really understood unit conversions . . . and when I worked through LOF PreA w/ Bio last year, I had a really hard time with the stoichiometry part.  DD is working through the ratio lessons of MM as well as LOF right now, and she finds it . . . easy.  Without projecting my own angst, I keep waiting for her to get hung up, or stuck, or come tell me this is really hard - and she's not.  It isn't hard, because she's learning it via an incremental, step by step, logical teaching method, and she's not moving on until she gets it.  And she gets it!  Yay!!!   I feel the way I did when she learned to do a cartwheel (something else I've never been able to do).

 

 It's not rocket science, if it's properly taught,  but if you miss it, it leaves a gaping hole that will be there for years.  Until you finally fill it in when you are in your 40s, if you're lucky.  ;) 

[foxbridgeacademy]

My advice would be to look at the requirements of the colleges you are considering.  If they only require up to trig you should be fine.

[Freckles]

She wants to attend a small Bible college. I'm pretty sure up to Algebra II will be fine. Thanks for all of the feedback!