Changing focus: our journey in realigning priorities

[raptor_dad]

I agree with 8. Hit the brakes.... BMO doesn't matter and he can't succeed at it anyway. Take a break and regroup after Christmas. He'll be refreshed and fly along with new enthusiasm. I think it is important to take some time to relish the hard won successes. Also, going forward this might suggest a similar rest period in the late Spring before the NZ MOP camp.

[Lilaclady]

Congrats to you and your son Ruth. I am just seeing this. He might be burned out but he did spend 2 hrs on the exam. He might just need some rest. All the best to you both. I am constantly inspired by all you and your kids do. Thanks for sharing with us.

[lewelma]

We have decided to see if we can get a face to face talk with the deputy IMO leader this week (who lives in town).  DS has met with him before, and he is very nice.  We need to know what the purpose is for him taking a formal exam so soon and what kind of expectations they have given his age.  Plus, DS can show him his camp-selection proofs and get some advice on writing briefer proofs.

 

Thanks everyone for your very wise advice.

[avilma]

I think their main goal is to give your son some experience at a real competition. Also they probably will use the results of BMO1 plus the results of the tests he will take during training camp to decide who gets into the 12 member IMO Squad. I am sure that the younger the kid the more weight later tests will have since usually younger kids can improve much faster.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about getting into the IMO Squad this year. Much of it depends on how many members of last years team are still competing. Being on the team this year would be helpful, but it can also be a distraction. Your son has still a lot of basics to learn and those things are not necessarily learned through olympiad training.

[Wildiris]

 

lewelma~

My daughter made a similar jump from music to math after 10 years of piano study. She looked around at kids who played in the local youth orchestra, practiced all the time at the expense of learning other skills, while at the same time assessing the her chances of becoming a concert pianist and earning a living. This girls was not a slacker pianist and possessed the skill and talent to pursue a career as a concert pianist, but math won out over music.

 

[lewelma]

I think their main goal is to give your son some experience at a real competition. Also they probably will use the results of BMO1 plus the results of the tests he will take during training camp to decide who gets into the 12 member IMO Squad. I am sure that the younger the kid the more weight later tests will have since usually younger kids can improve much faster.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about getting into the IMO Squad this year. Much of it depends on how many members of last years team are still competing. Being on the team this year would be helpful, but it can also be a distraction. Your son has still a lot of basics to learn and those things are not necessarily learned through olympiad training.

 

My ds does not want to be on the squad this year at all.  He want to be a better mathematician, and he is having serious doubts as to how taking the BMO this year will help him achieve that goal.  He is also very worried that a poor showing will disappoint the camp leaders. 

 

I agree with you that they are just using the BMO to give the kids more experience.  There are no formal exams here to take, so he might only get the opportunity once per year.  But my dh thinks that ds needs to hear all this from the camp leader.  And to be reassured that given his age, they don't actually care about his BMO results.

[serendipitous journey]

Ruth, I'm sorry to hear that your child is having burnout.  I hope he recovers soon and that he gains insight into managing being burned out -- a situation that's sure to reoccur if he pursues a demanding career, and is better dealt with soon as possible. 

 

Also, thank you so much for sharing the steps on this journey.  I'm very grateful for the opportunity to see what challenges you are encountering & how you are navigating them, esp. because your approach seems so sane, sensible, kind & rigorous. 

[lewelma]

Ruth, I'm sorry to hear that your child is having burnout.  I hope he recovers soon and that he gains insight into managing being burned out -- a situation that's sure to reoccur if he pursues a demanding career, and is better dealt with soon as possible.

Thanks for this. I had not really thought about it in this light.

 

Also, thank you so much for sharing the steps on this journey.  I'm very grateful for the opportunity to see what challenges you are encountering & how you are navigating them, esp. because your approach seems so sane, sensible, kind & rigorous.

I'm glad it has been helpful. Sometimes I think that I must appear very self centered to talk so much about this journey we have taken, so I am glad it has been helpful to you.

 

Yesterday, dh talked to the deputy IMO team leader -  apparently it was a wonderful talk. I am just too close to it, and was second guessing every single thing that I would say, so dh just did it for me!  The team leader said that 100% of the camp kids decided to take the BMO and that the NZMO committee expects that some of the juniors will score 0 points.  He also said that ds should not follow the BMO instructions of trying to completely finish fewer problems rather than complete halves of many problems - this relieved my ds, and I mean really relieved him!

 

What I have found this week is that in contrast to music, where his goals are basically whatever his teacher tells him his goals are, for math his goals are currently different than the NZMO committee's.  This was very interesting to me as I did not know he even had any goals! DS wants to be a great mathematician, not an IMO champion.  And he does not see them as the same path.  As avilma said, he sees any more competitions as a distraction.  It is now clear that he is NOT burned out.  In fact, he has very clear, personal goals of finishing his geometry book before the online AoPS intermediate number theory class starts in 2 weeks.   It is just that he is 13 and could not express himself well at all.  So when I asked him to work on someone else's goals and he sighed, complained, and said he wanted a normal week without exams, he was actually expressing a desire to follow his own goals. He wants to be in charge of his own path.  Well, hallelujah.  I have never known him to have a single personal goal. Ever. Well, lesson learned from the point of view of the parent (and teacher for that matter).

 

We did find out that the committee has discussed him by name in reference to his very clear proof writing style.  So he was quite pleased.  We also found out that there is one 12th grader and one other 'junior' in town who got in.  So we hope to meet the other junior before the camp in mid-Jan.  The committee is arranging all airfare, so I am guessing that they will be flying together.

 

Finally, they are sending him a 'tool-chest' for homework to complete before the camp.  We have no idea what is in this 'tool-chest' and this uncertainty is quite exciting!  It is clearly not just papers or they would just e-mail us the material.  But manipulable?  At this level?  We just cannot figure out what they are.  Apparently they tool-chest has been created for the Australian math olympiad camp, and the NZ committee has bought them for their own use.  All kids have to return the tool-chests when they are completed.  How very very exciting......

 

 

[quark]

I'm glad it has been helpful. Sometimes I think that I must appear very self centered to talk so much about this journey we have taken, so I am glad it has been helpful to you.

 

Not Ana, Ruth, but please don't feel this way. :) I am learning so much from you and your DS.

 

 

 

He also said that ds should not follow the BMO instructions of trying to completely finish fewer problems rather than complete halves of many problems - this relieved my ds, and I mean really relieved him!

 

What I have found this week is that in contrast to music, where his goals are basically whatever his teacher tells him his goals are, for math his goals are currently different than the NZMO committee's.  This was very interesting to me as I did not know he even had any goals! DS wants to be a great mathematician, not an IMO champion.  And he does not see them as the same path.  As avilma said, he sees any more competitions as a distraction.  It is now clear that he is NOT burned out.  In fact, he has very clear, personal goals of finishing his geometry book before the online AoPS intermediate number theory class starts in 2 weeks.   It is just that he is 13 and could not express himself well at all.  So when I asked him to work on someone else's goals and he sighed, complained, and said he wanted a normal week without exams, he was actually expressing a desire to follow his own goals. He wants to be in charge of his own path.  Well, hallelujah.  I have never known him to have a single personal goal. Ever. Well, lesson learned from the point of view of the parent (and teacher for that matter).

 

We did find out that the committee has discussed him by name in reference to his very clear proof writing style.  So he was quite pleased.  We also found out that there is one 12th grader and one other 'junior' in town who got in.  So we hope to meet the other junior before the camp in mid-Jan.  The committee is arranging all airfare, so I am guessing that they will be flying together.

 

 

See, this bit about completing halves of many is super helpful to me again. That was something I was wondering about should DS want to compete at some point.

 

I sometimes wonder how far my DS is going to get with math if he doesn't want to participate in a single math competition. He agreed to do the AMC8 last year but won't look at it this year. Won't look at any math contest. He is willing to try the NACLO (lingusitics) so maybe he is not opposed to every contest but he just doesn't want to do a math contest period. I don't know how this will affect his dream to be a research mathematician. Perhaps it won't. Different people are telling me different things. The majority say that you don't have to compete to do well in a math career but how do I trust that when I hear about cool math unis asking for AIME and AMC scores? Others are saying to encourage him to do them (I do but I also don't push) because competitions will give him a leg up. I do worry about it. And I live vicariously through your DS sometimes lol.

 

So to hear that your DS considers more competitions at this point in his life as a distraction helps me feel at peace with my own DS's feelings and choices about math competitions at this point. I hope this does not come across as being selfish. I have grown to respect your DS's views on his future math career. To hear him say it helps me appreciate that my DS probably knows what he wants too even if it feels counter intuitive to his wondering mom. Your ability to trust your DS's instincts also inspires me to continue to trust my son's.

 

So glad his proof writing style was recognized! So cool! You should pat yourself on the back. You've worked so hard alongside him.

[lewelma]

Thanks quark!  The only reason he was even willing to do the exam to enter the camp was because it was not timed.  He does *not* like the idea of a timed math exam.  Kind of 'why bother,' -- math is not about doing it under time pressure.  And he is right.  I have told him, however, that if he wants to continue to be considered for the camp and all the mentoring that goes with it, he needs to be somewhat open to the idea of a timed math exam at some point in the future.  He is kind of ok with that.  But really he wants the mentoring without the timed exams. 

 

I find it quite odd that someone would want an AMC score.  As far as I can tell, that exam is really about secret short cuts that you need to memorize and then recognize.  Why don't you work your ds up to the MTS (math talent search) which is a take home proof based exam like my ds just did.  From my understanding you can enter the USAMO from either the AMC track or the MTS track. 

[quark]

Thanks quark!  The only reason he was even willing to do the exam to enter the camp was because it was not timed.  He does *not* like the idea of a timed math exam.  Kind of 'why bother,' -- math is not about doing it under time pressure.  And he is right.  I have told him, however, that if he wants to continue to be considered for the camp and all the mentoring that goes with it, he needs to be somewhat open to the idea of a timed math exam at some point in the future.  He is kind of ok with that.  But really he wants the mentoring without the timed exams. 

 

I find it quite odd that someone would want an AMC score.  As far as I can tell, that exam is really about secret short cuts that you need to memorize and then recognize.  Why don't you work your ds up to the MTS (math talent search) which is a take home proof based exam like my ds just did.  From my understanding you can enter the USAMO from either the AMC track or the MTS track. 

 

Thanks Ruth. I might be wrong about AMC being a requirement. I think it is mentioned somewhere in the application to provide scores but the colleges don't actually require it? Sometimes these things sound like a mixed message to me lol.

 

I've tried asking him to try the USAMTS. There was at least one question that he could have completed last year with his current knowledge/ skills and he flat out refuses. There's time for him yet. I'm not saying he has to do it now.

 

Continue to update us on what happens with you guys ya? No pressure. Just whenever and whatever you feel like sharing. :) Good luck!

[lewelma]

Remember, my son is a full 2 years older than yours, and this was my ds's first exam.

 

So...... have patience.  Your ds has a great mentor and is definitely going down the right track.  He has plenty of time.

[Brad S]

The first thing he said when I handed him my phone with the e-mail on it was "Now I can look at the solutions."  They had come out 2 weeks earlier, and he had refused to even see if he was right.  The strangest thing from my point of view is that he proved one problem with number theory and the official solution used algebra.  :blink:  His proofs were also MUCH longer than theirs, but he told me "I did not know how much I needed to explain, so I wrote them for the laymen."  Um, ok, sounds like English class to me - with my teacher stressing how important your audience is to how you write. 

Congratulations on this great honor. About the proof-writing style: unless a very trusted tutor, or better yet two, says to change the style or shorten it, I wouldn't strive to match the brevity of a published solution. First, a short answer is often meant to help the student figure out the problem, sometimes with a bit of work. Second, an official solution is not trying to convince the reader that the author knows how to prove the answer; that is assumed, UNLIKE the contestant. Third,the official solution is often written by a panel, and there is a tendency of groups of mathematicians to prefer the shortest solution for printing. Fourth, your son should feel comfortable with his style and the proof he's most comfortable with for a problem.

 

It sounds like he's extremely talented already as well as very focused and perceptive -- while the math competitions should be helpful to his development, up to a point, too much focus on competitions, and especially timed competitions, wouldn't seem to get him to the goal of being a great mathematician.

 

Continued best wishes!

[quark]

post 65 reported

[8filltheheart]

Quark,

 

You are correct that some schools like MIT do request AMC/AIME scores, but I don't think it counts against students if they don't have them.   My ds also did not like competitions, so he doesn't.   I thought he wanted to compete in the physics olympiad, but he recently told me that he doesn't want to.  (And the first level is physics he took in 8th grade!  So it isn't as if it would even be hard for him.)   Some kids just don't like to compete.   No biggie.  There are many paths toward the same ultimate goals.

[quark]

Thank you Ruth and 8! :001_wub:

[serendipitous journey]

Quark, I can relate to your son's not liking competitions!  (though he's young enough I suppose it may change)  For the longest time I thought I didn't like math b/c I didn't like competitive math.  But I turn out to really like math for its own self!!!

 

Ruth, not only has this thread helped me but your thread on WWS1/2/3 (adapting and using them, the pros of them, &c) is helping me sketch out a writing plan and now I am sleeping better.  Hallelujah! 

 

also a side note RE mentoring -- I think this might be more suitable for when your son is older, and it might not be useful at all, but have you considered contacting the Gatsby RE education/mentoring ideas?  or perhaps educators/mathematicians associated with the Gatsby work?  They are the folks who sponsored MEP, and a friend of our is a theoretical/computational faculty member at their UCLondon unit and he & I were talking about the Gatsby interest in math education on his last visit to the states ... at any rate, they are UK based which isn't ideal, but it occurred to me that even if they don't have mentoring suggestions, the mathematicians associated with them might be better-than-average options for internships when your DS is at that stage.  I just wanted to toss it out before I forget about it ...

[lewelma]

He's there and loving it.  Yes, he did call on the first night. 

 

Stats (out of 24): 20 asian heritage, 4 non-asian.  19 boys, 5 girls.  One 8th grader (yes, my boy)!

 

And the results for the BMO (drum roll please......): my ds earned 1 point out of 60 :tongue_smilie:  Luckily, so did his room mate.  There is always next year. :001_smile:

 

 

[Kathy in Richmond]

He's there and loving it.  Yes, he did call on the first night.

 

 Love it! So glad that camp is starting out well!

 

Stats (out of 24): 20 asian heritage, 4 non-asian.  19 boys, 5 girls.  One 8th grader (yes, my boy)!

Those stats are par for the course in the US except for the 5 girls, which is high. When ds attended the Mosp summer program here, there were only 4 girls out of 55 kids that year. :glare:

 

And the results for the BMO (drum roll please......): my ds earned 1 point out of 60 :tongue_smilie:  Luckily, so did his room mate.  There is always next year. :001_smile:

Eh, don't worry about it. Did you ever read how Richard Rusczyk did at Mosp (in his Math Prize for Girls talk)? In his first two summers there, he said that he saw about 100 problems and completely solved...exactly zero! But he learned from the experience (obviously very well!) and that's all that was expected.

 

Good luck to your ds, and I hope that the remainder of camp is a joyful experience for him!

[Dmmetler]

I'm glad he's having a good time. What an awesome experience!

 

 

[quark]

His scores can only get better Ruth! I agree...what an awesome experience. Well done Ruth's DS!