Where do I go from here? (Warning: long post)

[holdinon]

We are not new to homeschooling (this is our 5th year), but we are new to the Classical model. I have been browsing these forums all summer and was so ready to dive right in with my new philosophy.

 

A little background:

 

My school aged children are 9 (will be 10 in Sept), 7, and 6.

 

I had known of Classical education early on and was intrigued, but thought it sounded like too much, so I elected a much "softer" approach. (Yes, I now realize that "classical" education does not have to be so difficult and rigid).

 

We have been doing math (Saxon and Math U See) and Language Arts (Sing, Spell, Read, and Write, Shurley English, miscellaneous read alouds, A Reason for Handwriting, and Spelling Power), and Bible (misc). We did begin copywork with my oldest in the beginning, but it didn't go so well, so we dropped it.

 

We've done virtually no history or science except what we've covered in our miscellaneous readings. Zero music, art, or foreign language.

 

Fast forward to the end of last school year: I recognized that I had very little joy in homeschooling. I knew that it was what we wanted to do, and I really wasn't burn out or thinking of sending them to school or anything like that. It was just that it was such a "ho-hum" activity.

 

We've prayed a lot for direction over the years, and see God's hand at work in the lives of our children. So I knew that all hasn't been in vain. However, I felt that little nudge pushing me and telling me there was a better way for us. I finally read WTM and a few other publications, including this board, and began to feel "empowered". We could do this.

 

DD6 is just beginning 1st grade and dd7 will be 2nd, so I'm not worried about those levels...we will just begin at the beginning and move on.

 

My questions revolve around my almost 10 dd.

 

We are going to be using Rod and Staff English this year (we were already looking for a switch from Shurley--just didn't fit for us). Also, I'm going to "back up" a little on the writing and do WWE...not sure where we will being yet. Level two seems easy for her, but she may need to do it for a firmer foundation. Still debating that one. We will also all Latin (Latina Christiana--dd7 and ds6 will also join us for this, but it will be mostly geared toward the older one)

 

We will be doing history (MOH) and science (Apologia Elem -Zoo 1) with all three dc, so that part is worked out. Haven't settled on art and music yet, but that's the least of my worries.

 

My main issue is with literature....She is a good reader, but not accustomed to reading "real" literature. I have always been very particular about what she reads (or so I thought). I've found that my criteria was only based on content--not quality. We've never read all the "popular" reading series. She's read mostly non-fiction or at least historical fiction. She's read a lot of the Sonlight readers (though we don't use Sonlight, just use their reading list for ideas).

 

I wanted literature to match up with our history (Ancients). So I *thought* I could go over the recommendations from WTM for 5th grade...well that is *NOT* going to happen---at least not yet---totally over her head---she doesn't understand it, because of the way it is written. She may as well be reading a book written in French.

 

So.... then, I got on the CCH website and looked at the 3rd grade literature. We read the descriptions of those books. Together, we chose a couple that sounded interesting to her (The Door in the Wall and Five Little Peppers and How they grew). We checked them out and she began reading....about two paragraphs worth! Much too difficult...(not the words themselves...she could "read" it fine...but understanding was a totally different story)....I said, "it's ok...don't worry about it. I'll read them aloud TO you and it will begin to get easier to understand".

 

Well, I read 3 chapters from Five Little Peppers...."HUH?!?!?!"

So then I read 2 chapters from A Door in the Wall....."Still don't get it"

 

The really sad part is.....I am having a difficult time myself. Unlike her, I do actually understand what is happening, but it is not enjoyable reading to me. I consider myself an educated person. I made the dean's list all through college, graduated with honors...I was a math major, so maybe that explains my lack of appreciation for good literature:confused1:)

 

I don't even know what my "question" is. I'm not sure what I'm looking for other that some input from someone who's been in a similar situation.

 

I haven't read aloud to her in a while. (At least not on a regular basis) The type of books I last read to her are the books I'm now reading to dd7 and ds6 (Charlotte's Web, Homer Price, Follow My Leader, and others such as that).

 

I am still feeling my new-found joy in this, so I'm positive this is the direction I want to go. I just don't know how to proceed from here.

[Narrow Gate Academy]

My questions revolve around my almost 10 dd.

 

My main issue is with literature....She is a good reader, but not accustomed to reading "real" literature. I have always been very particular about what she reads (or so I thought). I've found that my criteria was only based on content--not quality. We've never read all the "popular" reading series. She's read mostly non-fiction or at least historical fiction. She's read a lot of the Sonlight readers (though we don't use Sonlight, just use their reading list for ideas).

 

I wanted literature to match up with our history (Ancients). So I *thought* I could go over the recommendations from WTM for 5th grade...well that is *NOT* going to happen---at least not yet---totally over her head---she doesn't understand it, because of the way it is written. She may as well be reading a book written in French.

 

I am still feeling my new-found joy in this, so I'm positive this is the direction I want to go. I just don't know how to proceed from here.

 

I have two suggestions as far as literature. My first suggestion would be to try some of the Sonlight read alouds as independent reading since she has read the readers. You can look back through years 1 and 2 for books that you haven't read yet. Some of my 4th grader's favorites from those lists would be Understood Betsy, The Wheel on the School, Ginger Pye, Red Sails to Capri, and A Little Princess. Another option is might be to spend a year on the Chronicles of Narnia if she hasn't read these already. Veritas Press has a comprehension guide that covers all 7 books that I have heard good things about.

 

Remember that you don't have to plan out the whole year right now. I'd pick one book for the first month, and then you have some time to decide what to do next. I'm having my 4th grader start with Pollyanna this year for August. What we'll do in September is up in the air for now.

 

HTH

[melmac]

It sounds like your on the right track. I would just figure out where her comfort zone in reading is and get some books on that level and progress from there.

 

That is if I'm understanding correctly, it seems your worried that she doesn't comprehend the 5th grade reading lists from TWTM (?).

 

HTH! :)

[Hoggirl]

Well, I think I would work on just getting her reading where you want it to be first without worrying about the "literature" aspect of it. However, the only way to learn to read harder material is to read harder material. What I have done in the past is to alternate my choosing a book for ds to read and him choosing a book to read. Is it the vocabularly level? Getting my ds an electronic dictionary helped encourage him to look up words as he read (something about kiddos and having buttons to push). I have no idea where my copy of the WTM is! UGH! Honestly, we did not like a lot of the historical fiction books that went along with Ancients at that grade level. And, except for Gilgamesh, the mythology, and Homer, they don't fall into classic literature anyway. The 6th grade year does get much more into true literature-type books (Beowulf, Robin Hood, King Arther, Canterbury Tales, Divine Comedy, Shakespeare, etc.), and there are many different options/levels available on these. For grade 5, I might have her read an adaptation of the Iliad and Odyssey and D'Aulaire's Greek myths and call it a day on the "literature." Memoria Press has a guide that goes with the Greek myth book if you want to get more involved with it. If you think she has comprehension issues I have heard good things about Reading Detective, but we have not used it. I would let her continue to choose a lot of what she reads, but try to up the difficulty level. I do think, however, that reading below grade level helps with fluency, speed, etc. Has she read the Chronicles of Narnia?

I am not sure I helped very much. :confused:

 

Your plan sounds really good on all of your other subjects!

[Sunshine State Sue]

The really sad part is.....I am having a difficult time myself. Unlike her, I do actually understand what is happening, but it is not enjoyable reading to me. I consider myself an educated person. I made the dean's list all through college, graduated with honors...I was a math major, so maybe that explains my lack of appreciation for good literature:confused1:)

As a math major as well, here is my piece of advice about literature:

Lower your expectations :D

 

I'm sorry I can't help you any further, though. I discovered TWTM in 1st grade and so have been following it all along. I loved SOTW, and we worked through many, many supplemental literature suggestions. I believe that it helped that we started a year "behind" (in 2nd grade). Ds listens to lots of books on tape as well. I don't demand any lengthy conversations about the books, because he's mostly monosyllabic. Now, I read ds's history books the summer before the school year. I've read Trumpeter of Krakow, Beowulf, Robin Hood, King Arthur, and more this summer. I really enjoyed Beowulf, but find most of the books take a lot of time for the amount of enjoyment I receive. If you ever watched Amadeus, the king tells Amadeus (or was it the other guy?) that he liked the music but there were too many notes in it - cut a few. That's the way I feel about the literature. I find it enjoyable, but sheesh, couldn't they be more clear and concise?

 

On the other hand, ds doesn't complain about the books he has had to read. Last year, he read The Golden Goblet, Children's Homer, Greek Myths, Theras and His Town, and Caesar's Gallic Wars. *I* couldn't make it through the latter.

 

Where ever you start with your dd, make it a level that won't frustrate her. Your goal can be exposure, not mastery.

 

This is the way I think of it. My ds is getting a better education than I did. Perhaps this will allow him to give the next generation a better education than I could give. All we can do is do the best we can do. Take care.

[Lori D.]

Just a thought to consider (and probably discard! -- lol).

 

Would you say you and your 10yo are similar in learning style? And would you say that learning style would be thru hearing a teacher's instruction or classroom lecture? Through workbooks? More abstract, logic, sequential, "parts to whole" type of learning?

 

This is a more "left-brain" or "auditory-sequential learner (ASL)" style of learning, and people who are strongly ASL can sometimes have trouble visualizing a story. (In contrast, when reading fiction, highly visual learners can become SO absorbed in the book that they not only can "see" the story happening like a movie playing in their minds, but often FEEL like they are IN the story and are experiencing it.)

 

ASL are great learners of factual and non-fictional content and do wonderfully in the science, math, engineering, etc. fields -- but find it difficult to see or connect with the more symbolic, emotional, intuitive aspects of literature.

 

Might you and your daughter be more in that ASL camp? And whether you are or not, below are some ideas to try out in making more of a connection with reading/literature. Hoping something here is of help, but please disregard if it's not. : ) BEST wishes for a great homeschooling year -- and for the beginning of an enjoyable reading journey with your family! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

- Use a lot of picture books and highly illustrated books

Read a lot of children's picture books and illustrated folktale collections; the pictures help you visualize clothes, hair, phyical features, art styles, etc., of various cultures and historical periods. Also helpful are the highly illustrated Usborne, Eyewitness and other books that show what tools, clothing, housing, etc. looked like. Later, when you read a book like, "Door in the Wall", you can say, "Oh yea! Remember in that Usborne book the funky hairdo of the monks [a tonsure]? That's what this book is describing!"

 

 

- Practice visualizing while reading.

Stop every so often and ask, "How do you see that in your mind?" Or, "I pictured them doing it this way!" Or, "Close your eyes and make a picture of that description we just read in your mind; do you see the purple flowers gently blowing in the breeze? Can you see the mountains in the distance, topped with snow? How would that feel? What does it smell like?"

 

 

- Increase reading comprehension

To help reading comprehension, the Reading Detective series can be helpful. Also reading some "mini mystery" and "minute mystery" collections -- focus on the details listed in the story and try to visualize where things are in relationship to one another; that's usually the clue the to solving the mystery.

 

 

- "Hands on" helps you experience the story along with the characters.

"Experience" the time you're reading about: make the food, listen to the music, dress similarly, etc. Seeing it/feeling it on your own body or around you makes it easier for you make a visual picture of it as you read. For example, reading about the Pilgrims? Measure off the living space they had for living in on the Mayflower and and stay in that space for the day, eating nothing but "hardtack" and some stale water. Reading historical fiction set in ancient Rome? Dress in togas and sandals for the day and eat a lunch of grapes, goat cheese and flat bread while "reclining" on sofas or chasie lounges.

 

 

- Need help seeing "where the story is going"?

Go over a literature guide together first. A good guide will usually list questions of things to think about while you're reading; give good chapter summaries of the important events (and emotional reactions) that occured that you should keep in mind as you continue to read; and have discussion questions or activities to help you "bring the book to life."

 

 

- Read/discuss books with others.

Consider doing a small co-op with several other homeschool families.

Do your hands-on "living history" things with some other families. Have a monthly book club (either just kids or a joint parent/child one) together. You'll learn a lot about approaching literature just be talking with other homeschoolers.

 

 

- Start off picky about your books.

This year, start with books that will be very easy to visualize and will grab (and keep) listening/reading attention: exciting adventure, very humorous, already illustrated (Charlotte's Web), etc. Meanwhile, be building visual images into their minds with lots of those highly illustrated non-fiction books.

 

 

- Read, read, read.

Each book is like another "piece of a big puzzle"; the more you read, the more you begin to make connections on your own. Books on tape in the car; family read aloud nights; solo reading during a daily 30 minute "quiet time" after lunch; etc.

 

 

Some resources for YOU that might be helpful:

 

- Honey for a Child's Heart (book listing and describing quality books for all ages; I'd say, start at the beginning and read at the lower levels for ALL your children; don't worry if those books are "young" for your 10yo -- she'll

learn right along with younger siblings "how to listen to" and really "get" a book)

 

- Five in a Row (very hands-on oriented curriculum that helps you experience a book "five days in a row" through cooking, geography, activities, games, etc.)

 

- Drawn into the Heart of Reading (book to help you help your child appreciate literature)

 

- Deconstructing Penguins (book which follows the authors as they led a series of parent/child book clubs)

 

- How to Read Like a College Professor (a resource for reading high school and college lit.; specifically describes the symbolic meaning of many ordinary things found in literature)

[Lori D.]

- Read aloud with drama

Help your daughter visualize by reading the different characters with different voices -- I cackle for the witch, speak in a deep voice for the big male character, have a high quavery voice for the fearful child, etc, etc.

 

- Stop and ask questions

Stop every so often -- esp. in an exciting part -- and ask "So what will he choose now?" Or, "Oh no, what will happen to her?" Sometimes when we were reading a long chapter book over days/weeks, when we'd sit down to read the next installment, I'd say (as though I didn't remember), "so, what happened last chapter?" Or, "now where are we in the storyline?" Remembering what happened previously in the story is a skill or a "muscle" that has to be exercised so you can predict or anticipate what will happen in the future in order to understand the whole arc of the story.

[Guest]

WOW, Lori D! I am going to use some of those tips with my guys. I fall into the highly visual camp of learning. I have one son who is both auditory and visual and the other is visual. The youngers...no idea yet. Thanks for posting this!

 

To the OP, my oldest has auditory processing disorder so he struggles with reading comprehension. The Reading Detective series by Critical Thinking press helped him a great deal. But the single most effective thing I found that helped him was narration. may I suggest having you and your daughter take turns summing up a section at a time of the book you are reading? Kinda like writing your own Cliff Notes. For several years now, he has been required to write/dictate to me a short book report summing up a story. He drew a picture of his favorite scene.

 

Some books you may like to consider are anything by William Steig (Dominic and The Real Thief are all-time favs), Roland Dahl (Fantastic Mr. Fox and George's Marvelous Medicine are stand outs), E. Nesbit, and E.B. White. Listening to books on tape/CD with a full cast performances are great, too. David and the Phoneix and By the Great Horn Spoon were popular with mine.

HTH!

[PeterPan]

Given your dd's birthday is close to the cutoff, and given that she's struggling with a few things, if I could suggest, you might look at the 4th gr recommendations for WTM and Veritas Press instead of the 5th. On the writing, I think putting your youngers through the new WWE workbooks will work out great. For your oldest, I would suggest Writing Tales 1. http://www.writing-tales.com If that looks plenty easy for her, she could do WT2. WT1 is going to focus on basically getting her thoughts down on paper and doing some basic editing, thesaurus use, etc. In WT2 the models get a LOT longer, you cover more grammar, and by 2nd semester you get into some really sophisticated sentence improvements and whatnot. I would only put her into WT2 if she can comfortably get her thoughts down on paper now and write 1-2 pages. With her age, she might be fine going directly into WT2, IF she can comfortably handle the longer models. You can still profitably use the principles in WWE to apply to her other writing, but I think you'll be glad for something that is pre-done and a bit more independent, something you can just hand her and let her do. If you want to start at the beginning but find WT1 easy, just pick up the pace, doing both weeks of the model (rough draft and final) in one week until you complete WT1, then slow down to a normal pace with WT2. You're also going to like how WT will reinforce the grammar you're covering. It's very gentle, very pleasant, but will get the job done. You'll still have plenty of time to do your R&S grammar and might even find you can lighten the R&S a bit with the crossover you get through the writing. It's a good thing. :)

 

She's probably beyond copywork, which is why it didn't fly. Try dictation with her instead. You didn't mention spelling, but if you want to hit spelling with that dictation, try the dictation book for Spelling Plus.

 

Like your plans for the science, etc. Live and Learn Press makes some adorable lapbooks you might consider for the science. For the history, you can look at the Veritas Press catalog to get more literature. Also, I wanted to suggest you consider using some Veritas Press literature guides with her. They sound like they would be just the thing for where she's at. They use quality literature, have numerous at each grade level (just pick one where she's at and move forward), and focus on basic comprehension with a few pleasant activities thrown in. They'll be easy for you to implement and might be just the thing to get her over this hump. It's also another way to sneak in writing, as they have the student respond in complete sentences.

 

Now as far as more quality reading, VP lists books all over their catalog, but especially look in the Bible sections. They have some good quality historical fiction for girls that will correspond to your time period. Also, MOH should have some listings in the back. I think your main thing though, at this point, is to get some of those VP lit guides and use them. That way she's having to read more carefully, to go back and figure out what she didn't get. They aren't going to be abstract at all, just basic comprehension, and they have guides for all levels of books. I know WTM says you shouldn't need them, but I say they're a good thing. When your dc needs more care to their reading, they're helpful. When you don't have time to read and discuss the book but still need them to work on reading comp, they're helpful. When you want to sneak in more writing, they're helpful. In fact, you might start with Baby Island. It's such an adorable book, not hard at all, and will get her used to the format. If that's crazy easy, then you just move her up for the next guide. Tell her you're starting something new and wanted to start with an especially enjoyable book, even if it ends up a bit easy or something. I doubt it will be though; sounds like it might be right on. And it's a very girlish book to boot. :)

 

Just plow forward and focus on the basics. You can't change the past, and no irreparable harm has been done. I'd focus on the writing and sneaking in writing through all your subjects. That latin will be fine, and I bet your 6 and 7 yo's take a lot better to it than you think, maybe even better than the 9 yo! LC is all about memorizing, and that's something littles do quite well...

[Hebrews3:13]

but the first things that came to mind for me was reading comprehension. I am reading that she can actually "read" the words, but doesn't get it.

 

I would work on some Reading Detective books, as well as following many of the suggestions listed already.

 

HTH,

Laurie

[Carol in Cal.]

It has suggestions for supplemental reading that are probably right at her level, and they are of good quality. Make sure you get good books on Greek, Roman, and other ancient mythology. Also, I highly recommend "Black Ships Before Troy", "The Wanderings of Odysseuss", and "In Search of a Homeland" for good but not that difficult versions of the epics.

 

I would start discussing her reading with her when she finishes assigned books, using the discussion questions in TWTM. That should help with her reading comprehension. I would also recommend reading her very engaging books above her current reading level; continuing them over several days, and talking about them before, during, and after the reading. That is how my DD learned to summarize stories, and also how she learned a lot of vocabulary. You might want to consider reading aloud and then assigning her to reread the same books. We did this with the Chronicles of Narnia, and it really improved DD's reading comprehension to have first heard and discussed the books and then read them to herself again. They were written at a much higher level than her usual fare, but because she already knew the stories she could enjoy them this way.

 

I have to say, I hated 'The Door in the Wall' and the 5 little peppers books never worked for me even when I was a young, avid reader; so I think that you just got kind of unlucky with your first few choices. Some very engaging books for ancients that would work great as either read alouds or

[Guest]

I agree with Oh, Elizabeth. Look at 4th instead. That is what I am doing with mine.

[Mandamom]

>>>>>

- Practice visualizing while reading.

Stop every so often and ask, "How do you see that in your mind?" Or, "I pictured them doing it this way!" Or, "Close your eyes and make a picture of that description we just read in your mind; do you see the purple flowers gently blowing in the breeze? Can you see the mountains in the distance, topped with snow? How would that feel? What does it smell like?">>>>>>

 

I learned a method wherein you fold a piece of paper into 4 squares. You read a section (maybe a sentence or paragraph or whatever is appropriate for the age you are teaching) and have the child draw an imaginary picture on one square of the paper. (Using big arm/shoulder movements rather than just wrist motion). Read a little more and have them draw another picture on the next square and so on. Ask them questions about what they drew to help fill in the picture. Within those 4 squares you should have the basics of the story/paragraph you have just read.

 

Obviously you'll need to start with easier reading but if you do this regularly and build up to more complex readings (this can be used in all kinds of literature readings by pulling out paragraphs or sections of a longer story).