What comes after phonics?

[Rachel]

I've been lurking for weeks, but this is my first post.

 

This is my first year homeschooling, my son is 5.5.  My original plan was to spend this school year teaching him to read, but he has basically taught himself.  Right now I estimate he is reading between a 3rd and 4th grade level.  I feel like his comprehension is good, he is able to tell me about what he read, who the main characters are, etc.

This week I began OPGTR with him, starting where I estimated he needed work, only to find he has a better grasp on phonics than I realized.   I will continue the last few phonics lessons with him, but we will probably finish in the next week.

So, what comes next?  Spelling?  Is he too young?  I know some people continue phonics lessons, but he finds them really boring,and he seems to intuitively know the rules.  I hadn't really planned to do an official spelling program, but I see that a lot of people find it reinforces phonics, which he will need when he begins reading more technical things.

We already read a lot, at least an hour a day, and will continue to do that.  He typically reads to me before rest time, then he reads another 15-20 minutes on his own before he plays.  Today instead of playing, he read 2 Magic Treehouse books and a Flat Stanley book.  I actually had to set a time for him to take a break from reading so he could play outside for a bit.

 

If it helps, we are also working on handwriting and will begin math next week.

[2smartones]

Definitely spelling!  Also work on similar words (homophones, homonyms...) to show that phonics is important, but context and spelling are also important.  I teach vocab, spelling, and word roots all at the same time.  They're separate subjects, but I just can't help myself.  ANYtime we come to a new word that they mispronounce (phonetically correct, actually wrong), or that they don't know, we break it down, learn what it means, and learn how to spell it, right there on the spot.  Who says spelling or vocab have to be an arbitrary list of words from a book?

[mom2bee]

I would use OPGTR to work on his spelling and vocabulary then.

[Rachel]

Thanks.

[craftyerin]

I have twin Kers who are reading well (I'd estimate 2nd-3rd grade level at his point, and moving quickly).  I plan to start spelling as soon as we've covered everything I feel like we need to cover through Phonics Pathways (similar to OPG).  

[La Texican]

I just started WWE narration, dictation, and copywork with my reading k'er. It's only one sentence or one mini oral report daily. I also add intro to spelling once a week. That is, I have an old book with phonetically controlled spelling lists. I have him copy each word from his spelling list three times. I remember in school we copied each word three times, copied the definition, wrote a sentence with it, then took a test on it. I figured copy each word three times is enough for now to learn how to do spelling. I also help him do the occasional book report. The book reports are on picture books. We have a shelf of Little Golden Books. Who was the story about? What happened? What did you like best? These are large projects. He might read the book one week, tell me about it the next, then copy what I wrote down that he said the next. Sometimes it happens faster. I think the WWE is sufficient for grammer at the constructing sentences level, but I have MCT's Sentence Island and sometimes we'll read the pages from that which correspond with the WWE week. For example this week WWE said to choose a sentence with a pronoun in it and we read the little pronoun story from Sentence Island. I showed him a couple of sentence diagrams. He loves when I draw the word rockets.

 

I've read that with fast learners it's better to look at what you want them to be doing in middle school and start working on that and go as slow as you need and take your sweet time getting there. The reason is it's hard to keep up with their leaps and stalls if you plan too much and chug along in order. It's really just easier if you know your goals and you just keep plodding along and making progres, so here's the link to the "before middle school plan":

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/255839-why-you-should-work-on-twtm-skills-copywork-narration-dictation-outlining-etc/

[boscopup]

Spelling (one that includes phonics). In particular, teach him syllabication rules. That took my (then) 6.5 year old DS1 from that 3rd/4th grade level up to about a 6th grade level.

 

Once you get past the 4th grade multi-syllable words, you don't need phonics for reading anymore.

[EKS]

Reading.  :lol:  

 

Aside from that, spelling using a true phonics based program would be what I would do next.  AAS is excellent for young students.  Later on, if you're wanting a bit more input for how to sound out long words, REWARDS is an excellent resource (I used it with my younger son when he was 6 or 7 and he *loved* it).

 

 

[Rachel]

 

I've read that with fast learners it's better to look at what you want them to be doing in middle school and start working on that and go as slow as you need and take your sweet time getting there. The reason is it's hard to keep up with their leaps and stalls if you plan too much and chug along in order. It's really just easier if you know your goals and you just keep plodding along and making progres, so here's the link to the "before middle school plan":

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/255839-why-you-should-work-on-twtm-skills-copywork-narration-dictation-outlining-etc/

 

Thanks for the link.  I really did not expect him to pick up reading so quickly, and hadn't really started thinking about long term goals yet.

 

Spelling (one that includes phonics). In particular, teach him syllabication rules. That took my (then) 6.5 year old DS1 from that 3rd/4th grade level up to about a 6th grade level.

 

Once you get past the 4th grade multi-syllable words, you don't need phonics for reading anymore.

 

He definitely needs help figuring out syllables in longer words that he hasn't seen before.  He'll surprise me on occasion though, yesterday he read "embroidery".

 

Reading.  :lol:  

 

Aside from that, spelling using a true phonics based program would be what I would do next.  AAS is excellent for young students.  Later on, if you're wanting a bit more input for how to sound out long words, REWARDS is an excellent resource (I used it with my younger son when he was 6 or 7 and he *loved* it).

I have not heard of REWARDS, I'm going to check it out now.

[sunnyday]

I have two kids at about that stage, 4.5 and 6.5. The little one mostly just taught herself, while the big one recently springboarded from kindergarten level instruction into reading fluently on his own. As the big kiddo started to click with reading and sounding out simple words last year, we introduced AAS which has been a great fit for us...the phonics review combined with the segmentation skills and spelling rules has been just the extra boost he needs. The little kiddo startled me with her sudden skill. But of her own accord she is asking for continued "reading lessons", picking lessons out of "Teach your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons" and working them through with me even as she's reading Magic Schoolbus and picture books on a third-grade level and such.

 

My main advice would be to continue reading TO him, especially texts that are just beyond his reach. I feel like Harry Potter and the Hobbit read-alouds have done more to advance my first-grader's love of reading, and hence his ability to practice on his own and build skill, than anything else we've done. The other thing that has kept both their motivations high is to visit the library frequently. We check out books by the dozen. And of course, continue making time for him to read to YOU. My son has gotten so enthralled by books lately that he wants to plow through a story...but I've discovered he's skipping words instead of figuring them out. Sometimes this is fine, but occasionally it's good to encourage him to slow down and build vocabulary.

[beth83]

I've been lurking for weeks, but this is my first post.

 

This is my first year homeschooling, my son is 5.5.  My original plan was to spend this school year teaching him to read, but he has basically taught himself.  Right now I estimate he is reading between a 3rd and 4th grade level.  I feel like his comprehension is good, he is able to tell me about what he read, who the main characters are, etc.

 

This week I began OPGTR with him, starting where I estimated he needed work, only to find he has a better grasp on phonics than I realized.   I will continue the last few phonics lessons with him, but we will probably finish in the next week.

So, what comes next?  Spelling?  Is he too young?  I know some people continue phonics lessons, but he finds them really boring,and he seems to intuitively know the rules.  I hadn't really planned to do an official spelling program, but I see that a lot of people find it reinforces phonics, which he will need when he begins reading more technical things.

 

We already read a lot, at least an hour a day, and will continue to do that.  He typically reads to me before rest time, then he reads another 15-20 minutes on his own before he plays.  Today instead of playing, he read 2 Magic Treehouse books and a Flat Stanley book.  I actually had to set a time for him to take a break from reading so he could play outside for a bit.

 

I should have come over here a long time ago.  This describes my daughter to a T.  I am at such a loss as to what to do with her.  I always check out the other board and I start to feel like a bad mother.  "They are too young."  "Don't push them."  "Just let them play."  Oh my goodness!  She is doing this all her own.  Part of me feels bad if I would just step back and let her play.  I mean, school lasts about an hour a day, and we play the rest.  Is this really hurting her?  Plus, I don't want to hold her back when she has interest to learn more!

 

I never expected her to be reading at the level she is.  We started 100 Easy Lessons and never finished because it was just too boring for her and she jumped up to a 2nd grade reading level.  We tried ETC, but that moved way too slow with too much repetition.  

 

We used AAS last year, and although I love the program, it just isn't feasible with a lot of young kids.  I would pull a kid off the table, the lesson would stop.  I would have to go wipe a bottom, the lesson would stop.  Plus, we are pregnant, so add one more needy child into the mix soon.  I have been looking at Rod and Staff Spelling By Sound and Structure.  It is suppose to start in 2nd grade, but do yall think I could start now?  I love that it is phonics based like AAS, but more of a workbook format.  Looking at the material, I think she could handle it maturity and interest-wise.  

 

With a bright student, do I just stop ignoring the grade on the book???

[boscopup]

I have been looking at Rod and Staff Spelling By Sound and Structure.  It is suppose to start in 2nd grade, but do yall think I could start now?  I love that it is phonics based like AAS, but more of a workbook format.  Looking at the material, I think she could handle it maturity and interest-wise.  

 

The grade 2 book is super duper easy (and really isn't phonics based), but the grade 3+ books (which are phonics based) get more difficult. In fact, when my oldest started the grade 4 book mid-3rd grade, he sometimes had questions about the exercises. It ramped up quite a bit from the grade 3 book.

 

Since she's K, you really don't have to do spelling yet.

 

With a bright student, do I just stop ignoring the grade on the book???

 

I assume you meant "start" instead of "stop". Yes to the "start" version. :D With any child, ignore the grade on the book. That's the benefit of homeschooling. You are working with an individual child, not a specific grade.

[beth83]

The grade 2 book is super duper easy (and really isn't phonics based), but the grade 3+ books (which are phonics based) get more difficult. In fact, when my oldest started the grade 4 book mid-3rd grade, he sometimes had questions about the exercises. It ramped up quite a bit from the grade 3 book.

 

Since she's K, you really don't have to do spelling yet.

 

 

I assume you meant "start" instead of "stop". Yes to the "start" version. :D With any child, ignore the grade on the book. That's the benefit of homeschooling. You are working with an individual child, not a specific grade.

 

Thank you!  This is exactly what I needed to read about Spelling by Sound and Structure.  So, what do I do with her, if not spelling?  I liked that the spelling programs I used/was looking at would basically reinforce phonics instructions since she flew through this.  

 

We have math and handwriting.  What else should I do with her?

[Uff Da!]

We have math and handwriting. What else should I do with her?

We after school so take that into consideration as you read my response. Thanks to ardent teachers, homeschoolers and innovative publishers there is a feast of curriculum to choose from. You could do history, geography, an art curriculum, sciences or a language to name a few. Pick something that looks like you and your DC will have fun and try it out.

[Mergath]

My dd is in almost exactly the same situation.  She pretty much taught herself to read at four, and now is up to about a fourth grade reading level.  We gave AAS a whirl this year, but it bored her out of her mind, so we'll probably shelve it until next year.  I should have skipped all the sound review and stuff at the beginning, I think.  We're still doing handwriting, math, science, geography, and reading comprehension, so I think she'll be fine. ;)

[Rachel]

 

We used AAS last year, and although I love the program, it just isn't feasible with a lot of young kids.  I would pull a kid off the table, the lesson would stop.  I would have to go wipe a bottom, the lesson would stop.  Plus, we are pregnant, so add one more needy child into the mix soon.  I have been looking at Rod and Staff Spelling By Sound and Structure.  It is suppose to start in 2nd grade, but do yall think I could start now?  I love that it is phonics based like AAS, but more of a workbook format.  Looking at the material, I think she could handle it maturity and interest-wise.  

 

Your kids are the same ages as mine, 5,3, and 1.  No more yet :)  What is it about AAS that makes it difficult to use with multiple kids?  My 2 younger kids are pretty good about not getting into things on the table.  Also right now the 1 year old still naps twice a day so we do school while he's sleeping.

My dd is in almost exactly the same situation.  She pretty much taught herself to read at four, and now is up to about a fourth grade reading level.  We gave AAS a whirl this year, but it bored her out of her mind, so we'll probably shelve it until next year.  I should have skipped all the sound review and stuff at the beginning, I think.  We're still doing handwriting, math, science, geography, and reading comprehension, so I think she'll be fine. ;)

 

 

Did you like AAS and you just didn't feel like your daughter was quite ready for it?  What made it boring for her? It seems AAS is highly recommended by most people, unless the are trying to teach multiple kids.  I've been keeping an eye out for a used copy.

[Mergath]

Did you like AAS and you just didn't feel like your daughter was quite ready for it?  What made it boring for her? It seems AAS is highly recommended by most people, unless the are trying to teach multiple kids.  I've been keeping an eye out for a used copy.

 

I think part of the problem was that too much of it seemed like review for her.  After about day three of reviewing the flash cards with the letter sounds, dd looked like she was going to run screaming from the boredom, lol.  And then I had to add in the vowel/consonant flash cards, and that didn't help, because it was yet more flash cards.  (Nothing like pulling out a giant stack of flash cards every day to make a five year old want to lock herself in the bathroom, lol.)  She did enjoy segmenting words with the little round things, and she liked putting the letter tiles in alphabetical order.

 

If I had it to do over again, I definitely wouldn't push the review with each lesson, and would only do it as needed.

 

And if our attempt at phonics is any indication, she might not need it anyway.  Dd absolutely hated doing phonics (we mostly used PP).  I was about ready to have a nervous breakdown when we started silent e words, thinking I'd ruined her love of reading forever and she was never going to be able to read words more advanced than CVC words and maybe she was dyslexic? and oh my gosh. :P  Then she woke up one morning and just started reading everything.  If she's a natural speller, we might be having the same problem as we did with phonics.

 

Otherwise, if she doesn't magically start spelling correctly on her own, I plan to reintroduce it later this year or next year.  She's still a young five, so I don't want to force her to do it yet if she doesn't need to.  Next year though, I'll make her sit down and do it either way.

[Rachel]

Mergath, that is really helpful, thanks.  My son is 5.5, and while he doesn't mind doing some things that are easy for him, he doesn't tolerate a ton of review of easy things.  I have no idea yet if he is a natural speller.  He loves writing books on his own and for the most part doesn't have much difficulty writing one syllable words.

 

Edited for grammar.

[pushplaylearning]

I came up with my own nifty solution for my 4 and 5 year old. I am pulling their spelling words from the Webster Spelling Book which is free online.  To avoid writing (because we do enough as it is for their age), I use a customizable spelling app for the iPad called Spellosaur.   This app gives my kids opportunities to practice and then test out.   I can create spelling lists and add my own voice recordings.  The app offers practice opportunities such as listening and find, unscramble, find the missing letter and then plain old spell the word you hear.  

[boscopup]

Thank you! This is exactly what I needed to read about Spelling by Sound and Structure. So, what do I do with her, if not spelling? I liked that the spelling programs I used/was looking at would basically reinforce phonics instructions since she flew through this.

 

We have math and handwriting. What else should I do with her?

 

I'd just replace phonics time with "reading" time. You could also start some basic geography, history, or science. When my youngest is K next year, he'll tag along in history and science, as he'll likely be reading pretty well by then (though he's doing Spalding right now, so he'll probably continue that for spelling - he does well with it). My youngest is one that will have figured out all the K level stuff (including handwriting) before I teach it, so his K year should be easy. :D We'll progress to the next level as needed, but I will only require about 30 minutes of seat work, just like I did with his brother last year.