Thinking through high school and loads...

[PeterPan]

Any vets still around to discuss this?  TokyoMarie, anyone?  :)   I was having an introspective moment and wondering if I was viewing dd correctly and preparing to challenge her appropriately, not so much in academics but in overall load, if that makes sense.  Like once you talk about kids who have process speeds and extreme creativity, you're talking about this balancing act of not wanting to wear them out, wanting to give them enough time to pursue meaningful projects, etc. etc.  But on the other hand, it IS possible to lead a life of sloth and not pick up the ante and really accomplish much and get a fire under your butt, kwim?  

 

So how did you find that balance?  Where was it for you, and did it shift with different years?  How did you know when you had the amount of work and other things right?

 

 

[maize]

listening in...

[geodob]

The teenager as a sloth, is an age old question?

Perhaps with 'preparing to challenge her appropriately'?

This might be rephrased as 'preparing her to take up the challenge'?

 

Then the other side of this, is: 'pursue meaningful projects'.

Though the teenage years are very much about discovering what has meaning to us?

Where time is needed to explore many different things, to find what has meaning.

So that when you say 'pursue meaningful projects'.

I might rather turn this around to time to explore different projects, to find a project that has real meaning.

Having explored a range of projects on the journey, it will provide more certainty.

Where this can possibly feed back into academic studies?

 

So that basically what I'm suggesting ? is that it would be good to give her time to explore different projects, to find one that 'sparks a fire in her butt'.

A fire that she found and started herself.

[PeterPan]

Well, geodob, that's an interesting point!  I've subscribed to the idea that they need the gift of time to pursue things, but I got sort of rattled by a thread in the other section saying to the effect that if we aren't working them into the grindstone, we aren't working them hard enough.  So it's kind of a maturity question to me, if that makes sense.  Taking up appropriate challenge *matures* the student.  Sitting around too much allows them to stagnate.  But, as you say, there are *consequences* to making them more and more busy.  At some point they no longer have time to find their own interests and passions.  

 

It's kind of a funny balance.  On the one hand, I would say dd needs *time* to process and pursue her interests, because she's not a fast thinker.  On the other hand, she gets more done when she has more going on and seems to enjoy that level of going and bustle.  And it's one thing to fall into a fast/busy routine because you found a bunch of things that dc wants to do.  It's another to feel *compelled* into that busy a lifestyle, simply because someone said you're ruining them if you don't.

 

And yes, she has a fire under her butt already, lol.  She can keep totally busy for weeks on end just with her own projects.  She cans and cooks and has ideas for sewing and landscapes and of course does all her reading and...  In some ways school is an interference in her own natural progression, lol.  And maybe that's why I'm concerned about this positing that a dc is under-challenged if they aren't doing x number of hours of school work a day (preferably 9 am - 6 pm, if you read the hs boards, mercy), because that would leave no time for the things dd does to herself that grow her as a person.  I can't fathom growing the Borg side (do this academic list, assimilate, it's what everyone does) brings out her uniqueness, but I do think appropriate challenge and balance brings out MATURITY.  Just trying to figure out how to strike that.

 

Actually, I probably have our answer.  The psych said NOT to work her hard but to make sure she has energy leftover for her creative stuff.  If she has no energy for her creative stuff, then she's doing too much school work.  He said high school could/involve *some* suck-it-up, but to keep it very connected, within unit studies, and otherwise engaging. And he said she would be fine in college because she would want to be there.  I find it odd that he puts more emphasis on her success coming with wanting to be there, where others on the board (not this section) seem to put it on how great a job the mom did in preparing them. But I guess that's normal.

 

[Tokyomarie]

I only have time for a few short thoughts, but I'll throw out the ones that are at the top of my mind:

 

1. Totally forget the timelines and schedules you see on the high school board. You will frustrate your daughter and yourself if you even so much as LOOK at them. I think you know that but you just need a mom who is a little further along in the process to give you permission. Well, I'm that experienced mom who learned the hard way because I didn't have someone a bit ahead of me to communicate it in a way that made sense.

 

Our slower processors who are creative NEED to not be pushed to do formal school activities from 9am-6pm. It kills their spirit and their motivation to achieve in the academic arena. This is what I experienced with my two children who have a profile more similar to your daughter than to my oldest child, who fits the profile of many of the fast workers who are academically driven. During the 9th-10th grade years, my younger two really could only handle a total of 5-6 hours of engagement with formal academic work- ie traditional textbook/written output required activities. Also, it was better to split up that time in say 2 hr blocks.

 

Both kids were about 16-17 years old before I could ramp up the schedule. My middle child suddenly took a dramatic leap up in her ability to engage in sustained work on traditional academics when she was right around 16.5yo. My son was more like 17.5-18yo. I worried about whether they would ever get there but the change was amazing when they did.

 

Since your daughter already engages regularly in her hobbies & interests, you don't need to worry too much about whether she'll use her non-academic time productively. You will want to think about how you can arrange some of it into elective courses for her transcript. And, yes, it is perfectly fine to include it-especially if she is learning new skills in the process or can do some kind of written work, photography, or video to document what she is learning.

 

2. The balance seemed to be right if they were getting in enough work to get 5 credits worth of work done/school year in the first couple of years, but spreading that over more than 36 weeks. We only took about 6 weeks completely off during the summer, though we had a slightly abbreviated schedule for about 4 more weeks.

 

You do need to take the lead on expecting a high quality job for the work that is produced. Not adult level perfection, but being fully engaged with the task at hand and aiming for the best job they can do.

[PeterPan]

Thanks Marie, that's what I needed!  And you're right, that's a pin it on the refrigerator and don't forget!  Thanks!!!!!!!!!  :)

[Heathermomster]

2. The balance seemed to be right if they were getting in enough work to get 5 credits worth of work done/school year in the first couple of years, but spreading that over more than 36 weeks. We only took about 6 weeks completely off during the summer, though we had a slightly abbreviated schedule for about 4 more weeks.

 

You do need to take the lead on expecting a high quality job for the work that is produced. Not adult level perfection, but being fully engaged with the task at hand and aiming for the best job they can do.

 

This is a problem for my family. My homeschool cover seriously pushes the college bound family to strive for 7 hours per year or a min of 28 hours by graduation,..yikes..

 

 

[Tokyomarie]

This is a problem for my family. My homeschool cover seriously pushes the college bound family to strive for 7 hours per year or a min of 28 hours by graduation,..yikes..

But most public school students can't even get in more than 24, depending on how their school is structured. And usually the 6th credit is not a hard academic subject. Even if they can get 7 credits per year, that includes such things as PE, Health, technology, and arts. When I say 5 credits, I'm thinking of a credit in each of the 4 core subjects, plus a foreign language or other academic elective. The other stuff isn't as hard to work in because it's less written output driven.

 

ETA: I honestly tried to bump up the level of output because, after all, it's high school. That was the worst thing I ever did to my son. He shut down and it took more than 3 years to get back some level of trust that he wasn't going to be given more than he could handle. Is it right to create a mental health problem just to meet some presumed "best practice" expectation set by others?

[PeterPan]

Heather, I wondered about that too.  But think about it.  That 7 does NOT have to be all academic.  The 5 is your core.  It means you don't go nutso.  Then, like she's saying, the other things they do turn into credits as well.  So you can still hit your 7 units/credits, you just don't do it by doing latin and russian for all of them.  

 

Normal kids in school have PE, Health, Art, Home Ec, and all sorts of other things.  Nuts, in a cs they're going to have one of their units be Bible every year, meaning NONE of those kids get more than 6 credits besides.  Bible is non-academic.  So there's room to have these alternative things hitting your total of 7.  As Marie said, it's not that they're doing nothing.  It's just that you're not saying do 7 academic classes AND do your private things.  It's giving some validity to their private things, trimming down the stuff Mom assigns, and letting it balance out.  And maybe it's what you've been doing and never really thought through, kwim?  Like maybe he already does certain things on his own for a subject, and you just go check, got that covered, don't need to hit that twice.  

 

And yes, I just needed to hear some people saying it, before the moms who've btdt drift off and are gone to us!  I want to be able to look back on this thread for the next 4 years and find my peaceful spot.  :)

[PeterPan]

You do need to take the lead on expecting a high quality job for the work that is produced. Not adult level perfection, but being fully engaged with the task at hand and aiming for the best job they can do.

 

If you have time, I'd love to hear more about this.  On some things I feel torn with the levels of expectation and what you *could* do with something.  For instance with literature, she's quite driven on her own.  I'd like to take a conservative approach where I slightly up the ante, just by tickling her with a few things, and let it go at that.  I could take it further obviously, requiring papers (as some do).  I could go the other direction and loosen it up more and just let her do her own thing entirely, which I don't feel good about.  I guess I'm just curious what scenarios gave you this kind of hindsite, hehe...

[PeterPan]

Our slower processors who are creative NEED to not be pushed...It kills their spirit and their motivation to achieve in the academic arena.

 

Could I just say how much this resonates with me?  I just see how ALIVE she is when we get the level right, how she pursues her own things.  To me this feels good, even if someone else does feel they have the right to be snarky and decry it.  I like seeing that health and pro-activeness.  I DON'T think I should just create lists and turn her into a crushed C student, as someone on the boards once told me to do.  I kid you not.  Kid can't do standard, nuts with that, make them do it anyway, crush their soul, give them the low grades, they've gotta learn their PLACE!  It was incredible.  So only the brilliant have the right to feel happy when they work, thanks.  Joke is, the brilliant aren't necessarily happy when they work, lol.  

 

But you're right, that's what's special about her is how ALIVE and pro-active she is.  People enjoy working with her because of it.  The very thing that some would call a disability actually gives her the ABILITY to be that way.  

 

And that's really interesting to hear that they stepped it up *later* say age 16-18.  I'll just watch and wait for that and not expect it to be that now.  

 

Well thanks for sharing!  :)

[kerenlynne]

What a good discussion. DS is 17 and still pretty immature. I am hoping the maturity will kick in soon and he will have a fire in his belly to do the hard things. (So thanks Tokyomarie for providing hope in that area) OhElizabeth- I hear what you are saying about the other boards-I sometimes get discouraged that I don't have a kid who is trying to get into a stem program or a really good college, or whatever. We are scratching and clawing our way to a HS diploma. It even makes me a little depressed because there are people who have kids with LDs that are progressing more rapidly than mine. I kind of question whether or not I am screwing up my kid. But then I remind myself that we pulled him out of PS after one disastrous semester in HS on the premise that there was no way we could mess things up worse than them! I think I can honestly say we have met that goal:)

[PeterPan]

Kerenlynne, I think (not speaking from experience), sometimes it takes TIME to undo those bad habits and negative feelings about things, and that sometimes what we're doing is laying the foundation so the success you're looking for will come in the NEXT stage.  I'm not sure every kid just turns around after 10 years of being beaten down in ps, kwim?  But maybe he gets the sense after time at home that he *could* be good at something and gets a little more confident, then when he leaves the nest he's ready to go after it.  I think that's ok.  I also think knowing what you want at this age is NOT the norm.  

 

I think it's more important to leave home with a positive character and work ethic than it is a particular list of accomplishments.  People get into schools, even engineering schools, ALL THE TIME with backgrounds that aren't like what we see here on the boards. And the kids do fine if they have a good ethic and are willing to work hard.  I just think there's more to accomplish than just learning algebra, kwim?  They can survive without algebra, but they can't survive without a sense of themselves and something they're good at, a work ethic, and maybe a sense that they have something to give to the world.  

[TravelingChris]

I have three kids.  Kid one had fast reading, very good memory and no LDs though he is ADHD.  He did a lot in high school.  Second kid, more severely adhd, many medical issues, inlcuding a non stop seven month headache where she could not do math or science during that time.  She had a strange learning problem (she doesn't see like everyone else, and that vision issue also affects how she thinks).  SHe got a lot done but less done kid#1.  Now my last is ADHD (inattentive) but not diagnosed and treated until the end of tenth grade.  SHe is also dyslexic though she can read and likes to but is much slower than normal.  I have thrown out the book in terms of classical learning with her.  She will not have the literature background that her siblings had- she can't read fast enough to do that.  I also decided that it is much more important for her to spend more of her time in math, science and technology things that she excels in than overly frustrating her with lots of English.  She likes to listen to history so we continue with that.  So is she writing lots of essays- no.  Is she reading lots of literature-no.  Is she reading some- yes.  Has she written some essays- yes, and she does a good job,  SInce it takes her a long time to do so, I am not requiring many.  This will leave her time for the activities she wants to do and that I consider valuable- Venture Crew, Dive team, Science Olympiad, Destination Imagination, Speech, etc. 

[Pen]

Children in B&M high school do seem to have school/extracurriculars/homework from 9-6 sometimes longer.  But that includes electives and creative classes and time hanging with friends, and PE or sports, and in some schools things like home ec, or future farmers, or auto shop, art studio, drama, music, etc.     

 

My idea is that I dictate the basics of math and so on, but where all the electives would be, ds can have his free time to explore.