was this a silly question?

[Nicole M]

A few days ago I posted a question about how much interpretation of your sources you do when you're reading history stories. Many, many of you viewed the thread, but apparently this is an issue only for Rose and me...?;)

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46958

 

So now I'm wondering if this is just so old hat for you, this kind of comparison of sources, that it's a no-brainer and you were too polite to say, "well, duh, Nicole." Or maybe you were too polite to say, "you're overthinking again, little Missy."

 

If any of you have any thoughts about this, about the question, about history, I would sure appreciate hearing them. I truly respect your ideas and points-of-view, and it's hard for me to imagine that Rose and I are completely alone in our wonderings about this stuff.

 

Thanks so much,

Nicole

[Country Mouse]

I think what you brought up - attempting to approach things from various points of view - is essential to critical thinking and to really understanding history.

I read your post and it got my wheels turning. I didn't reply mainly because I couldn't succinctly and intelligently put my thoughts into words!

I feel I never received a thorough knowledge of history in school so my ds and I are sort of learning it together as we read and explore. Even though he's only 7 we do discuss, "what would the other guy say?" and "what if this battle had turned out differently..." I have found that my ds can even identify biases sometimes without them being pointed out.

I do remember in college one of my professors assigned a book, I think it was The Conquest of Mexico or something like that. It was blatantly and offensively biased and the whole point of it being on our reading list was to make us aware - "hey, everything you read reflects the author's take on things." He was hitting us over the head with it to make the point.

 

So, your question was great and I think I was just a little shy to respond. Sorry :o!

[Another Lynn]

Was that the thread about Famous Men in particular. I read it with interest, but didn't feel I had a helpful response. I think in general I try to pick sources that I "trust" and then don't worry about it - but truthfully this is very naive on my part! Your thread was admonishment that I need to be better informed or do more research or something....

 

Hope others will chime in.

[Nicole M]

Admonishment! Oh, no! I don't want anyone to feel badly. Shoot. Sorry.

 

But you're right, I wasn't asking specificially about the Famous Men series. I'm not very good at coming up with a subject line that reflects the overall question when I'm still wrestling with the question, kwim?

 

As for Memoria Press in general, though, I do like their materials. I feel they give me just what I need to be able to "run with" the subject. The Famous Men series piques my interest and I find the actual biographies to be good starting point for "doing" history. Which is why I find myself digging through encyclopedia articles.

 

I guess, though, I don't completely "trust" MP as a source. Or, rather, I know that their bias is not my bias. Often with MP articles in their magazine, I agree with the starting point but myself end in a radically different place with it. I go elsewhere from that point. Other times, I start in a very different place but can "buy" the conclusion that is made from one of their articles. So even though I would put myself in a very different theological camp, I agree with them on many things. I think being really aware of my own bias, and of theirs, helps me to ask questions.

 

Also, like you (was it Country Mouse?), I find my children are very aware of bias as well. They can often tell "who wrote this" by the context, and pov.

 

I hope no one else feels admonished. That was certainly not my intent. Perhaps I should have posted on the General Board. Many of you still only have littles at home and haven't been doing history as long as we have (re: I'm and old lady:D).

 

Thank you for your responses.

[clwcain]

I didn't have anything constructive to offer, so I held my peace. :D

[HollyinNNV]

A few days ago I posted a question about how much interpretation of your sources you do when you're reading history stories. Many, many of you viewed the thread, but apparently this is an issue only for Rose and me...?;)

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46958

 

So now I'm wondering if this is just so old hat for you, this kind of comparison of sources, that it's a no-brainer and you were too polite to say, "well, duh, Nicole." Or maybe you were too polite to say, "you're overthinking again, little Missy."

 

If any of you have any thoughts about this, about the question, about history, I would sure appreciate hearing them. I truly respect your ideas and points-of-view, and it's hard for me to imagine that Rose and I are completely alone in our wonderings about this stuff.

 

Thanks so much,

Nicole

 

No-not silly at all. In fact, it is one of those "questions for the ages" type of big inquiries. I didn't see it, but when I saw your "silly" thread and read it, I almost talked myself out of responding because I knew it wouldn't be short response.:D

 

Well, I think we (almost) all go through a personal journey. The journey may take different forms. It might start earlier or later in life. But many of us come to the conclusion that history books have some type of bias. It may be subtle or extreme. It may be due to ignorance or purposeful. But it is there.

 

At that point we have to decide what to trust and distrust and decide how this affects us as teachers. For those of us who have black and white type of thinkers, there is a concern that we are perhaps giving them subtly false information that they will carry with them forever.

 

Here is what my own personal feeling is:

 

My ds is a black and white thinker. However, if he is anything like dd, he won't remember 99% of the history he is taught up to about 5th/6th grade. So, I am more interested that he loves history and develops positive attitudes about his country. So, I pick history based on this for now.

 

My dd is in 9th grade. She finds the history contradictions interesting. We talk about them. For example, her Cambridge Latin book treats the Roman culture as an interesting, positive culture that had many redeeming traits. Another book we read was far less flattering in its portrayal. She and I came to the conclusion that both sources were probably accurate, just written from different viewpoints.

 

We read a book about William Bradford (not from juvenile section). I was able to point out the many places the author chose to employ the fallacy of not providing the whole picture. We used Lies My Teacher Told Me to fill in more of the story.

 

For my ds, these discussions would be worthless. He is NOT ready! But, when my dd was that age, I was reading LMTTM and getting ready for the time when she would be ready.

 

My dd and I also talk about how nothing is a certainty. The media can't even get current events straight. Why would the history of something 10, 100 or 1,000 years ago be completely accurate?

 

So, it is important to be well-read, intellectually curious and a bit skeptical at all times. That's what I want my kids to learn.

 

Just as a side note, I had an epiphany that caused me to really think about this issue. There was a controversy on this board which traveled to another board. It involved a chapter in SOTW. There was one person who was able to single-handedly scare a bunch of people into thinking that SOTW was inaccurate. As I always had felt pretty comfortable with the series, I was pretty skeptical. Others, who did not have the book, were posting responses like, "I'll never buy it! Wow, I can't believe it!" etc.

 

The OP who felt SOTW was inaccurate had written a long diatribe. I spent several DAYS dissecting her argument and researching her issues. The gist of her problem was that SWB had not given enough information and therefore was inaccurate. Not that the facts were wrong-just not enough information. After spending so much time figuring it out for myself, I was pretty annoyed. But, it is an issue we all have to think about with juvenile and children's lit. In order to keep content reasonable and interesting, some things are omitted. In order to keep content age-appropriate, some things are omitted.

 

After my summer research saga, I thought a LOT about this non-silly issue you brought up. I made my plan, which I've related to you. Hopefully, you will have as interesting a journey as I've had (am still having).

Holly

[Melissa B]

We address the issue of bias by reading multiple books on a subject whenever possible. We do not use an encyclopedia as a reference - assuming it to be less biased or "more accurate" (although we do like to use Wikipedia on occasion as it seems to be a quick source for nearly any topic.) There really can't be an accurate description of history, there will always be multiple viewpoints so we read and discuss the prevailing ideas about a topic from different time periods and form our own viewpoint from what we know. We are continually reshaping our own thoughts as were those who wrote the books. What a particular author wrote at the time a book was published isn't necessarily what he/she continued to think throughout life. I don't think our family addresses history with skepticism (at least I hope not) so much as with fascination and a desire to continue to reform our own ideas. Not all thoughts or ideas are equally valid nor do they deserve equal weight. But, as we continue to read, think, discuss and form our own ideas; it becomes easier to discern the difference between a prevailing idea of the time and an individual's personal bias reflected in their writing.

 

Moving from philosophical to practical :D

We do not read the Famous Men series so I cannot address those books particularly. Right now we are covering the time period around Columbus.

 

For spines we have:

Foster - World of Columbus and Sons

VanLoon - Story of America

Hakim - History of US

 

and supplemental:

D'Aulaire - Columbus

Sis - Follow the Dream

Brenner - If you were there in 1492

Fritz - Where do you think you are going, Christopher Columbus?

Fritz - Around the World in 100 years

Baker - Juan Ponce de Leon

Baker - Amerigo Vespucci

Guy - Drake and the 16th Century Explorers

Hynson - Magellan and the Exploration of South America

Teaching Company CDs - Early America

Conrad - Pedro's Journal

Schein - I Sailed with Columbus

Annals of America - Discovery of the New World (written by Columbus)

 

along with anything else I manage to find :)

 

and I am reading:

Mann - 1491: New Revelations of the Americas before Columbus

Sugden - Sir Francis Drake

Boorstin - The Discoverers

(maybe) Menzies - 1421: The Year China Discovered America

 

 

We will discuss what we have read. I will share any information I have read that is above their reading levels (that I found interesting.) And we will begin to form our own ideas of what was going on at the time of Columbus, ideas that will continue to grow and change throughout our lifetimes. Our favorite questions for history are not: Who was.... or What happened when.... They are: Why do you think that? and Where did you read it?

[8filltheheart]

Hi Nicole,

 

I didn't read the original thread b/c I don't use the Famous Men of series. FWIW......unless MP re-wrote the series, these books were not written by them. They were out umpteen yrs ago when I first started homeschooling and were published by Greenleaf Press and the Shearers (yep, I own them. Just don't use them. ;) )

 

As far as your question, I expose my kids to multiple views of history. I became convinced of the necessity yrs ago. My kids have learned that the bias is from the author's perspective and the people on the other side of the story have a totally different POV. There was another thread recently that touched on this issue. I think it was one about chronological history.

[Kathie in VA]

I missed the first post but I probably wouldn't have responded... at least not right away. I would have thought to wait to see what others say... I feel it IS important to know enough about the source to trust it OR know enough about the subject to catch and counter errors or missing information. I know I don't have the knowledge for this so this always makes me worried a bit. This is why I tend to spend sooo much time researching and worrying about what I use to teach with. I know we can always take questions to my dh... now he really has history down, but he's not available for the main lessons.

 

I think multiple sources would be too much for younger kids... they just want the basic storyline. The logic stage kids really need to see at aleast a few sources... if only to highlight how different the history can be presented when points of view change. I don't have any in the rhetoric stage yet, but I think that when I do.. they should want multiple sources by then.... perhaps they should be used to it and expect to use it to gather their info and do their own work.

 

hth

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

We address the issue of bias by reading multiple books on a subject whenever possible. We do not use an encyclopedia as a reference - assuming it to be less biased or "more accurate" (although we do like to use Wikipedia on occasion as it seems to be a quick source for nearly any topic.) There really can't be an accurate description of history, there will always be multiple viewpoints so we read and discuss the prevailing ideas about a topic from different time periods and form our own viewpoint from what we know. We are continually reshaping our own thoughts as were those who wrote the books. What a particular author wrote at the time a book was published isn't necessarily what he/she continued to think throughout life. I don't think our family addresses history with skepticism (at least I hope not) so much as with fascination and a desire to continue to reform our own ideas. Not all thoughts or ideas are equally valid nor do they deserve equal weight. But, as we continue to read, think, discuss and form our own ideas; it becomes easier to discern the difference between a prevailing idea of the time and an individual's personal bias reflected in their writing.

 

Wow. Our philosophies in this area are very similar. We are even about to move into the same time period. :001_cool:

 

Thank you so very much for the list of books, Melissa. Some of those overlap what is on my list as well, but I will check the others out.

[keptwoman]

I've been thinking on this subject a lot recently but from a slightly different angle.

 

In hunting for history programs I find things aimed at homeschoolers to be very US-centric, which I daresay is appropriate for people for whom the US is where they live but less appropriate for our family of antipodeans with ancestry from Britain and Europe.

 

I try to think about trying to find a number of views on an issue or person, to try and see any bias for what it is. We look at different things and discuss why they are different, why one says this and the other says that. We learn that no source is completely reliable and we have to understand that there is always more to an issue than we are seeing.

 

But there is also the bias of omission in what you choose to cover. You could spend your whole life studying history and still be a very long way from knowing everything. So for me the most pressing bias I'm constantly on the lookout for is what we aren't studying, what are we missing in the US programs that are important to us. By using a US program are we studying someone elses view of the world rather than one constructed by people closer to us? I find it a real struggle.

[woolybear]

There's just too much good reading on these boards to read every post! I went back and read it and this is actually very relevant to my upcoming year. Although we did a bit of Am. history last year and scattered readings on other time periods, this year is the first year we are really delving into history. I have STOW and am planning to use that, but I also read some negative opinions on that. So then I considered CHOW and A Little History of the World. And in each case, some people felt that there were inaccuracies in these books. So, I finally came back to the point that history is really written from personal perspectives and therefore subject to some limitations. I've been mulling over whether I want to get into this with dc (8 and 5) as it makes it sound like any history we read may not be factual. If they feel they are to take it all "with a grain of salt" will it not start to feel more like fiction than non-fiction? I have not resolved this yet for myself, but I am thinking that I will perhaps briefly explain this idea but not dwell on it. I haven't read the other responses yet, so I am interested to see what others have to say.