I think I need to throw in the towel with MCT

[Country Girl]

I love the MCT grammar books. DS has done Island, Town, and Voyage levels of the grammar, but it just doesn't seem to be sticking. I'll admit, I think I've held on so long because the program is perfect for *me*, and it fits some ideal I've created in my mind, but I don't know if it's working for him. We read through the new book at the beginning of each year, and then throughout the year he analyzes a daily (or close to daily) sentence from the practice books. I love this set-up...... a little up front teaching and then quick, daily reninforcement to practice and keep the knowledge fresh. I'm not willing to spend 30+ minutes a day on explicit grammar work, so this format works very well for us. I also love the way that every level of the sentece is analyzed in tandem with the other parts. Seeing the relationship between parts of speech, parts of sentence, phrases, and clauses makes so much sense to *me*. The problem is, he does not do well with his analysis of the daily sentences. He is a prolific reader, and has a pretty innate sense of correct spoken grammar and does well with grammar/punctuation in dictation. But when it comes to explicitly understanding why a sentence is structured a certain way or why to punctuate a certain way, he falls short.

 

So, does anyone have a suggestion of what we should try next or a way to tweak MCT to make it work better? For the total of his language arts program we have been using WWS2, Use it Don't Lose It Daily Language Practice wkb (to help with some of those odds and ends like word useage that MCT doesn't cover), Megawords, Red Hot Root Words, and MCT. If there is a grammar program that you can suggest that could also eliminate one or more of the other parts of the LA line up we have right now, I'd be thrilled to streamline things. He will be starting 7th grade this fall, and I'd really like to finish up with grammar before high school.

[Hedgehogs4]

I really appreciate Analytical Grammar. It is a thorough examination of the whole body of grammar that there is to learn, and covers it in three seasons, none of which takes an entire school year to complete, unless you stretch it out. It is not easy, but it is thorough. We use this, phonetic zoo for spelling, MCT Caesar's English, and WWS. I am very pleased with the progress that my ds 11 has made this year in his language study. PZ is in-and-out, ten minutes a day and I don't touch it. CE is able to be covered in 2 days per week, and WWS you know.

[Tullia]

My son is in college now, and I'm not familiar with a lot of the newer programs, so I'll keep it general. Grammar "not sticking" is a common problem and it takes lots of repetition to overcome it. It may or may not be a problem with MCT. The best way I've found to make English grammar stick was to do most formal grammar instruction during foreign language time. (In our case it was Latin.) I used our English grammar text as a secondary source for brief review and tried to integrate it into the writing curriculum instead of a stand-alone grammar session. How much opportunity is there for you to reinforce the MCT lessons while you're using WWS2?

 

FWIW, We used Harvey's which I know isn't for everyone. I've not used Analytical Grammar, but what I have seen I like,and it gets good reviews from people I respect.

[basketcase]

We use MCT, at the Island and Town level right now. We always work the practice sentences together, giving me a chance to review what a preposition is or where you typically find an indirect object. Sometimes when one of my kids gets stuck on a practice sentence, we go back to the grammar text so that they get a refresher on what is needed. I recently asked about my kids still needing help on the sentences on the MCT forum. Mr. Thompson himself explained that the practice sentences are often designed as a springboard for discussion. Some they should be able to do by themselves, others they will need to talk through. I also have found the additional MCT LA materials help, since they constantly reinforce the grammar. Caesar's English includes practice sentences that use the vocabulary words, for instance. Good luck!

[Matryoshka]

What kinds of mistakes is he making in the Practice Sentences? (parts of speech, parts of sentence, or bits of everything??) Do you go over the sentences with him right away? I have to say that I haven't found any program that 'sticks' better than MCT - for my kids analyzing the whole big picture keeps everything fresh with very little work.

 

One thing that's helped is not doing the 4-level analysis from the top down - I don't find that intuitive at all. Parts of speech always flow from what their purpose is in the sentence. So I have them first bracket off the prepositional phrases (a la Easy Grammar), then find the parts of the sentence, and only then do the parts of speech, which by then are pretty much obvious. Once parts of a sentence are found, clauses are also straightforward.

[Mukmuk]

 

One thing that's helped is not doing the 4-level analysis from the top down - I don't find that intuitive at all. Parts of speech always flow from what their purpose is in the sentence. So I have them first bracket off the prepositional phrases (a la Easy Grammar), then find the parts of the sentence, and only then do the parts of speech, which by then are pretty much obvious. Once parts of a sentence are found, clauses are also straightforward.

 

 

I find this to be so true. We've hit the various type of verbal phrases in Town and I see ds moving from phrase analysis back to parts of speech to erase what he had done. I'll tell him to start at phrase analysis next time.

[FairProspects]

What kinds of mistakes is he making in the Practice Sentences? (parts of speech, parts of sentence, or bits of everything??) Do you go over the sentences with him right away? I have to say that I haven't found any program that 'sticks' better than MCT - for my kids analyzing the whole big picture keeps everything fresh with very little work.

 

One thing that's helped is not doing the 4-level analysis from the top down - I don't find that intuitive at all. Parts of speech always flow from what their purpose is in the sentence. So I have them first bracket off the prepositional phrases (a la Easy Grammar), then find the parts of the sentence, and only then do the parts of speech, which by then are pretty much obvious. Once parts of a sentence are found, clauses are also straightforward.

 

 

I agree too. We do it backwards from what MCT suggests, starting by drawing the sentence diagram and working from there down to parts of speech.

[Country Girl]

I really appreciate Analytical Grammar. It is a thorough examination of the whole body of grammar that there is to learn, and covers it in three seasons, none of which takes an entire school year to complete, unless you stretch it out. It is not easy, but it is thorough. We use this, phonetic zoo for spelling, MCT Caesar's English, and WWS. I am very pleased with the progress that my ds 11 has made this year in his language study. PZ is in-and-out, ten minutes a day and I don't touch it. CE is able to be covered in 2 days per week, and WWS you know.

 

Thanks! AG is probably my top contender right now, so it is good to here is working for you. Are you using the program over 3 years, or using one of the condensed schedules? About how long does it take to do a daily lesson during the season and also one of the review lessons?

[Country Girl]

My son is in college now, and I'm not familiar with a lot of the newer programs, so I'll keep it general. Grammar "not sticking" is a common problem and it takes lots of repetition to overcome it. It may or may not be a problem with MCT. The best way I've found to make English grammar stick was to do most formal grammar instruction during foreign language time. (In our case it was Latin.) I used our English grammar text as a secondary source for brief review and tried to integrate it into the writing curriculum instead of a stand-alone grammar session. How much opportunity is there for you to reinforce the MCT lessons while you're using WWS2?

 

FWIW, We used Harvey's which I know isn't for everyone. I've not used Analytical Grammar, but what I have seen I like,and it gets good reviews from people I respect.

 

Thanks for your thoughts. All of my kids are studying Mandarin with a tutor right now, and really aren't getting any grammar instruction through that.

 

Can you tell me a little more how you integrated the grammar instruction into the writing curriculum? To me, the ultimate goal of grammar instruction is to write well. However, grammar was always a weakness of mine, so I'm having a really hard time knowing if ds is doing well meeting that ultimate goal. As I mentioned, he reads a lot, and naturally speaks with good grammar. It also seems that he does a pretty good job in his writing of not making any obvious mistakes (although punctuation could use some work). However, when I look at his direct grammar work (MCT sentences), it is obvious he isn't remembering the parts of speech, parts of sentence, and phrases. But maybe that doesn't matter???? If his writing sounds okay, is that enough? I know writing isn't his thing, so how do I know when he has had enough grammar instruction and mastered it well enough?

 

Thanks!

[Country Girl]

You might like Hake. It doesn't take a lot of time to do. It has tons of review. It basically introduces a concept then has some practice. Then the next chapter a new concept with practice and a bit of review of the first concept. It continues on like this with each chapter reviewing earlier concepts through practice.

 

Thanks, I'll look into this. He is using Saxon math right now, and that spiral review seems to work well for him. Can you tell me a little more about how you use it? I've seen some people mention only using it every other year, or spreading one year out over two. Do you do it every day and how long does a lesson take?

 

Thanks!

[Country Girl]

What kinds of mistakes is he making in the Practice Sentences? (parts of speech, parts of sentence, or bits of everything??) Do you go over the sentences with him right away? I have to say that I haven't found any program that 'sticks' better than MCT - for my kids analyzing the whole big picture keeps everything fresh with very little work.

 

One thing that's helped is not doing the 4-level analysis from the top down - I don't find that intuitive at all. Parts of speech always flow from what their purpose is in the sentence. So I have them first bracket off the prepositional phrases (a la Easy Grammar), then find the parts of the sentence, and only then do the parts of speech, which by then are pretty much obvious. Once parts of a sentence are found, clauses are also straightforward.

 

Yep, he's missing bits of everything. I do go over the sentece with him each day after he has done it. The big picture, every day, is perfect for me and makes so much sense to me, but I'm just not seeing it with ds.

 

Also, thanks for the comment about not doing the analysis from the top down. I never thougth that ds may be doing it that way, because I don't do it that way. I agree with you that it is more intuitive to figure out their purpose first. However, I just asked my ds if he does it top down, and he says he does. Maybe if I work with him on flowing through the sentence in a different way it will make more sense to him.

[Dana]

I got Rex Barks for additional practice with sentence diagramming. It's about $20 on amazon. That helped with the sentence analysis in MCT. I also have my son put prepositional phrases in parentheses and draw arrows showing what modifies what.

[Tullia]

Thanks for your thoughts. All of my kids are studying Mandarin with a tutor right now, and really aren't getting any grammar instruction through that.

 

Can you tell me a little more how you integrated the grammar instruction into the writing curriculum? To me, the ultimate goal of grammar instruction is to write well. However, grammar was always a weakness of mine, so I'm having a really hard time knowing if ds is doing well meeting that ultimate goal. As I mentioned, he reads a lot, and naturally speaks with good grammar. It also seems that he does a pretty good job in his writing of not making any obvious mistakes (although punctuation could use some work). However, when I look at his direct grammar work (MCT sentences), it is obvious he isn't remembering the parts of speech, parts of sentence, and phrases. But maybe that doesn't matter???? If his writing sounds okay, is that enough? I know writing isn't his thing, so how do I know when he has had enough grammar instruction and mastered it well enough?

 

Thanks!

 

FIrst, let me say that it sounds like you are doing an excellent job, and the old proverb of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a good one to keep in mind. I used different materials which might not be a good fit for you, so take what I say with the proverbial grain of salt. There's no single right way to school classically, nor is classical the only way. However, I am definitely "sold" on the benefits of using some form of classical educational methods. Even if the Mandarin instruction isn't giving your children explicit grammar instruction, I believe that there will be valuable implicit grammar understanding imparted along with the other benefits.

 

The short answer to your question is that I used a combination of Classical Writing and the Harvey's Grammar texts as our core language arts materials. For us, the results were excellent even though my son was ahead of the CW publishing schedule and we had to improvise. The foundation laid for teaching syntax in CW Homer is excellent and there are teaching references and student books available now that make using the core text far easier than when we worked through it. When we had to improvise using other programs, I always found myself using the CW rotation of skills as an overlay to whatever we happened to be using: (theory: pre-grammar, grammar, logic, rhetoric/analysis of a literary model on the basis of the theory lessons/imitation: writing projects based on the theory and analysis lessons.) I added another layer; application to one of the content areas of history literature or science. The application element was done in rotation, and the expectations for those projects were set according to whatever skill level he'd reached in CW at any given time. That meant my son usually had two writing projects in the works: the current CW writing project from the text, and the application writing project from history, science, or literature. I know that prolific writers could do more, but my son works at a fairly deliberate pace. Quantity wasn't a realistic goal so we settled for doing fewer projects and doing them well.

 

With regard to how much grammar instruction is enough; YMMV, but I believe the study of the trivium is a lifelong endeavor with a goal of going as far as you are able at a rate which can be maintained over time. I had good teachers when I was in school, but even so it was essentially a modern education with a few exceptions; I found myself learning alongside my son. His test scores in grammar/language arts were very good, indeed, and they have translated into a, so far, successful college experience. I wish we had done more with the progym during high school, but the years pass and at some point you just have to say, "We're done!" and move on to the next thing.

 

The experience was good for me as well. At a time of life when I expected to be coasting toward retirement I'm finding my skills in demand--and in areas not necessarily related to education. That was a completely unexpected bonus derived from the many hours required to learn in order to teach.

[Mandylubug]

Does the child enjoy it as well? I thought MCT wasn't sticking well until we did our standardized testing and they tested at an approximate 7th grade level. We have been using R&S for English for two months as well. Its just boring. My plan is to do MCT every other year and R&S in between.

[Jaybee]

We like Hake as well. It doesn't take a very long time, and is very thorough. One thing my factoid ds enjoys is that each lesson uses sentences covering some theme, and he enjoys the random information he learns as he does the lesson. I don't use the Writing portion, but we do like the grammar lessons.

[TarynB]

Thanks, I'll look into this. He is using Saxon math right now, and that spiral review seems to work well for him. Can you tell me a little more about how you use it? I've seen some people mention only using it every other year, or spreading one year out over two. Do you do it every day and how long does a lesson take?

 

Thanks!

 

 

There are approximately 110 to 120 lessons in each grade level textbook of Hake grammar. So if you do a lesson per day, 3 days per week, a grade level would take you about one 180-day school year (3 days per week for 36 weeks, for example) to complete. Each lesson teaches a new concept, written directly to the student, then walks through a couple or three examples and the worked-out solutions. Next, usually about 10 practice questions on the new concept. Finally, the lesson is finished with a set of 25 or 30 review questions. Each review question has a parenthetical reference to the lesson number in which the reviewed concept was taught, in case the student needs to refer back to that lesson. I let my DS do only odds or only evens on the review questions and it is still PLENTY of review. I let him write in the book instead of on a separate piece of paper. Each lesson takes my DS about 15 - 20 minutes to complete this way. You can see samples of each level at the link in my sig - it takes you directly to the publisher's page. This program is written directly to the student for independent work. The TM is a solutions manual (not a teaching guide) and also contains blank tests (one test can be used after every 5 lessons) and test answers. We don't use the writing lesson workbook; we use other curricula for writing.

[Momof3littles]

I got Rex Barks for additional practice with sentence diagramming. It's about $20 on amazon. That helped with the sentence analysis in MCT. I also have my son put prepositional phrases in parentheses and draw arrows showing what modifies what.

 

When did you start with Rex? My DS is 9 yo, and completed Island level this year. We'll be moving onto Town this coming year. He's doing fine with it so far. In Practice Island he makes mistakes here and there, but overall seems to get the gist of what he's doing. We've done a tiny bit of diagramming using FLL3.

 

I read the reviews on Rex on amazon but had trouble telling when I could intro it. DS1 is bright and good at LA, but a reluctant writer overall. His writing is excellent and above grade level when he does produce output, but he really doesn't enjoy it most of the time. He's come a long way though and will now finally produce a paragraph without tears. No issues with the actual act of writing (no dysgraphia, etc.).

[Dana]

We used some of it at 9 and at 10.

He needed some more practice with parts of speech and the approach with diagramming helped enough that he was able to move on with MCT.

 

I think you are at a place where Rex would work well.

Sometimes my son would do the MCT sentence analysis and then I'd diagram it for him.

It also helped for me to ask him how a word was functioning in the sentence.

I'll mark the things he gets wrong, then we'll discuss it. Sometimes he has to look up a word in the dictionary to help think through part of speech.

[Momof3littles]

We used some of it at 9 and at 10.

He needed some more practice with parts of speech and the approach with diagramming helped enough that he was able to move on with MCT.

 

I think you are at a place where Rex would work well.

Sometimes my son would do the MCT sentence analysis and then I'd diagram it for him.

It also helped for me to ask him how a word was functioning in the sentence.

I'll mark the things he gets wrong, then we'll discuss it. Sometimes he has to look up a word in the dictionary to help think through part of speech.

 

Thanks, Dana! Maybe I'll pick Rex up for us to work on.

[Dana]

It seemed like we had to pause for some times...he'd get a good bit wrong for a week or two, then he'd catch back up. Phrases in particular were tricky. We also watched a good bit of Schoolhouse Rock for parts of speech :)

[Forgiven]

I would say that for the first 25 or so sentences in Island my DS got a lot wrong. Eventually he figured out what a preposition was. He calls them his worst enemy. ;) It took him a while, but now he can identify them easily.

 

I agree with Dana about School House Rock. My son will sing the songs while analyzing his sentences to remember things. It has helped a lot.

[Hedgehogs4]

 

Thanks! AG is probably my top contender right now, so it is good to here is working for you. Are you using the program over 3 years, or using one of the condensed schedules? About how long does it take to do a daily lesson during the season and also one of the review lessons?

 

I am using it over three years. I will admit, though, that we are taking longer than 10 weeks to get through it because I really don't want him spending more than about 30 minutes a day doing grammar. He gets very crabby and frustrated if he has to do that, so I let him parse one day and diagram the next. Who cares, though, if it takes more than 10 weeks? It doesn't bother me, as long as he is learning it, and he is.