If you had to choose between Honors college at UNC Chapel Hill and Baylor University in TX for Pre med which would you choose? Thanks for any input.

[Nissi]

nt

[FaithManor]

I think I'd choose based on "fit". If it was at all possible to visit both campuses for a non-student tour, and stay for a couple of days, I would want to do that and then have my student decide which one provided the environment he/she would most like for the next four years.

 

Part of not only enjoying college, but also making it through without undo angst, is fitting into the campus culture or the fact having the institution meet the reasonable expectations of the student. Speaking from experience, I did well at my alma mater, but it wasn't my first choice. My best fit was Oberlin, and I ended up not being able to afford it. That was tough on me. However, it would have been much worse if I had ended up hating the school I did land at so I really recommend looking at factors outside reputation, academics, etc.

 

Faith

[Pawz4me]

Agree -- Choose based on fit. And finances, of course.

 

As far as I know both of them are great schools.

[Barbara H]

They are in a lot of ways very different choices. Private versus public, Texas versus N. Carolina, Baptist versus secular, etc. UNC draws higher stats students and is higher ranked, but both are good schools. I don't really think anyone else can advise what to choose becuase it will depend greatly on individual and personal factors including finances.

[Candid]

As above, and I'd look at how close either is to you as well.

 

I'd pick UNC because it is the southern most part of heaven. It's a great school and its in a great college town.

[plansrme]

I would take great comfort in the fact that you could not go wrong with either of them.

 

Then I would consider the political aspects: do I want a largely politically conservative student body? Or a more liberal one?

 

Terri

 

[Brenda in MA]

Can you find out more about each schools' pre-med advising and admission rate to medical school? Also, I'd try to have a pre-med avoid as much debt as possible for undergrad if he/she will have to take out loans to afford med school.

 

Sounds like your dc has two good options, though, so congrats!

[Nissi]

The finances work out to be somewhat similar because of scholarships from both schools. Baylor might end up a little higher but not significantly. UNC Chapel Hill is closer to home but very liberal with extremely large class sizes for Pre med. Baylor has a christian atmosphere and smaller class sizes. They seemed to be more focussed on building their pre med program; for example, they offer a separate living learning center for their pre med students this year to foster group learning. Most students get into Texas medical schools (which have the lowest tuition) but they do have those that go to Harvard, Yale, etc. We are trying to find out more about pre med at UNC. They seem to have a great Health Policy program but no one has recommended their pre med to me yet. We do plan on visiting soon.

[creekland]

If finances are similar, I'd definitely let the student choose based upon fit. They are different schools (fit-wise), and both are good for pre-med.

[AngieW in Texas]

That would be a really tough choice. My dd thought about Baylor for a very short while because it is one of the few schools in TX with a neuroscience program, but she was worried about professors pushing religion in class. That was enough to prevent her from even considering visiting the school. UNC is just too far. She wanted to stay within 6 hours of home and within 2 hours of family (preferably 1 hour). She also wanted a secular school. And a school that didn't make a big deal out of football.

 

UT Dallas fit on all counts. They don't even have a football team. They hold pep rallies for the chess team. It's within 4 hours of home and within 15-45 minutes of grandparents (depending on traffic). Her sister is also there.

[Nissi]

Visited UNC Chapel Hill today. Pros: beautiful campus, clean and airy dorms, fresh food at Lenoir Hall, and friendly students. However, the pre-health advisor would not give me any info. about the number of students admitted to medical school last year. He said that was not important. There is not much hand-holding. You have to take initiative and go after the opportunities available in terms of research, extracurriculars, recommendation letters etc. They have a renowned chemistry department, public health program, and political science dept. There seems to be a lot of opportunities available. Ds. did get into their Research Scholars Program. He said their Pre med club had 2000 students. At this point, ds. is still leaning toward Baylor. Thanks to all who gave input.

[plansrme]

You know, those clean airy dorms may seem like that just cause they are not air conditioned. Or so said our NCSU student tour guide last week in one of several digs he made at UNC.

[Luckymama]

Red flag for me that he wouldn't give you the med school acceptance rate!

[creekland]

However, the pre-health advisor would not give me any info. about the number of students admitted to medical school last year. He said that was not important. ...He said their Pre med club had 2000 students. At this point, ds. is still leaning toward Baylor. Thanks to all who gave input.

 

Acceptance rates to med school can be misleading as different schools approach things differently. Some schools only support students they feel WILL be successful - and those schools end up with great rates which they publish braggingly. Other schools will support anyone who chooses to try to go. With lower stats (GPA or MCAT), fewer of these get accepted, but some do. At a college that supports anyone, students in this category have a chance (sometimes up to a 50% chance statistically), but in the first college, they wouldn't even be able to apply since they weren't a "sure thing."

 

School #2 has a lower rate, but which school is the better option if you aren't a top contender? School #1 gives you no option. Either school is going to work for the top contenders.

 

So, I understand not wanting to give a rate (rates ARE deceptive), BUT good pre-med folks tend to pull out a piece of paper with stats on them. (We had so many apply in this stat group with this rate, and so many in this group with this rate, etc... and then most have it differentiated by year or a cluster of years) It would be a red flag to me if this guy didn't have that info to share. He should. He should also have info on WHICH med schools successful applicants made it into.

[Nissi]

You know, those clean airy dorms may seem like that just cause they are not air conditioned. Or so said our NCSU student tour guide last week in one of several digs he made at UNC.

 

The dorms that we saw did have air-conditioning.

[plansrme]

 

 

The dorms that we saw did have air-conditioning.

 

 

Well he did say "some" are not air conditioned. I have no idea whether that is even true or not, of course, but I am rooting for Baylor. Obviously. For no reason.

[SarahW]

He said their Pre med club had 2000 students.

 

Someone more familiar with UNC-CH could probably give more info, I only had a family member graduate there a couple years ago, but the impression I got was that the "club" system is pretty big there. It's like an American-Southern equivalent of the British house system. Some are more specific than others, some are more social than others, though I think most schedule swing dances. I think that's where you get a lot of the "hand-holding" for making the student aware of opportunities, It seemed to me that UNC pushes that model (clubs get money and lots of support from the school) to teach the students how to network to achieve their own advancement. It's a good training ground for the real world, where you hardly ever have a superior watching out for the best thing for your career.

 

It's a different mind-set, to be sure. If your daughter is comfortable with that then it can be good.

[Pawz4me]

When we toured UNC this past summer, we got the same impression about the club system as far as networking and being a primary source for advancement opportunities. I believe the guide said there are over 700 clubs, and that the university is very open (funding, faculty support, etc.) to students who want to start new clubs.

[Candid]

Someone more familiar with UNC-CH could probably give more info, I only had a family member graduate there a couple years ago, but the impression I got was that the "club" system is pretty big there. It's like an American-Southern equivalent of the British house system. Some are more specific than others, some are more social than others, though I think most schedule swing dances. I think that's where you get a lot of the "hand-holding" for making the student aware of opportunities, It seemed to me that UNC pushes that model (clubs get money and lots of support from the school) to teach the students how to network to achieve their own advancement. It's a good training ground for the real world, where you hardly ever have a superior watching out for the best thing for your career.

 

It's a different mind-set, to be sure. If your daughter is comfortable with that then it can be good.

 

 

NO!!!

 

UNC is not dominated by social clubs. Most people aren't in fraternities or sororities.

 

There maybe a helpful premed club that I know nothing of.

 

Those kinds of clubs are interest driven, but not dominate. Student government run by students funds all clubs.

[Pawz4me]

The clubs we're talking about aren't fraternities/sororities.

 

And on our tour we were absolutely told that the school itself provides funding for the clubs. Whether the money is funneled through student government (or not) wasn't mentioned that I recall.

[SarahW]

The clubs we're talking about aren't fraternities/sororities.

 

And on our tour we were absolutely told that the school itself provides funding for the clubs. Whether the money is funneled through student government (or not) wasn't mentioned that I recall.

 

 

Yes, they definitely aren't frats. If I remember my brother's club right, they had their own room to use in a campus building (which was very nice), they had their own "government" for their club, they ran debates on I don't know what, scheduled some social activities (like swing dances). But becoming a member was the result of networking (I suppose each club had rules about if you had to be invited or if you could apply and be voted in), and each club had it's own flavor. My brother's wasn't limited to a certain major/degree/school, but I think that you would be smart to pick the club where the top students in your department a year or two ahead of you are members.

 

They get money from a social activities office of some sort (it was on the first floor of the building where the club had a room), but I'm pretty sure that to be a recognized club you have to meet certain standards, and those involve doing a lot more than just partying.

 

I also got the feeling that employers who are favorable to graduates from UNC-CH prefer to employ those who had belonged to a good club.

[Candid]

Yes, they definitely aren't frats. If I remember my brother's club right, they had their own room to use in a campus building (which was very nice), they had their own "government" for their club, they ran debates on I don't know what, scheduled some social activities (like swing dances). But becoming a member was the result of networking (I suppose each club had rules about if you had to be invited or if you could apply and be voted in), and each club had it's own flavor. My brother's wasn't limited to a certain major/degree/school, but I think that you would be smart to pick the club where the top students in your department a year or two ahead of you are members.

 

They get money from a social activities office of some sort (it was on the first floor of the building where the club had a room), but I'm pretty sure that to be a recognized club you have to meet certain standards, and those involve doing a lot more than just partying.

 

I also got the feeling that employers who are favorable to graduates from UNC-CH prefer to employ those who had belonged to a good club.

 

I am a UNC graduate and this is not at all what I experienced. There are some non-fraternal clubs on the campus but they are few and far between in terms of the kind you are describing. In exploring the website this afternoon, I can find nothing that indicates to me that this sort of atmosphere is extensive on the UNC campus. It runs contrary in my opinion to a university that continues to bill itself as "the people's university."

 

I had to drill down to find this list of clubs run out of the student union: http://uncstudentorg...t/organizations Here's an overview page to describe the process: http://carolinaunion...t-organizations I imagine most large universities handle things like this.

 

There are 600 and as you can see by browsing they are all over the place in terms of what they do. Some are focused around issues, some religious, Most are not clubs with any view toward networking with future employers.

 

It does appear the business school runs some clubs:

http://extranet.kena...es/default.aspx which might function as place to make future job contacts.

 

Now all that said, I can see if you get someone heavily involved in a club of any sort that you may get more focus on that in a campus tour, but overall, I don't think this is the campus atmosphere, but maybe my experience on campus is too close to the 60s and their egalitarianism I'll send some emails to friends who have children there now to see what they think.

[SarahW]

Candid, I don't understand your post.

 

My brother graduated about 8 years ago. I believe that his club was run through the student union, but I didn't bother to remember the name of it to find it in the list. If you look at the list you can search by type, and I saw that there are numerous healthcare-oriented ones.

 

The student union says:

 

In keeping with the University’s educational mission, we expect our students to learn by doing. We challenge them to think creatively, analytically, and critically. We challenge them to gather and synthesize information. Based on this work, we expect them to develop a course of action that meets the standards of the University and allows them their self- and group expression. Student leaders are expected to accept and fulfill their responsibilities in all aspects of leadership.

In 2012-2013, Carolina has 629 student co-curricular organizations that were extended official University recognition. These organizations plan activities, programs, and services that address a wide span of interests. From public service projects and recreation tournaments to performances and media, there is something for everyone. For a searchable database of student organizations, go to studentlife.unc.edu. If you can't find what you're looking for on the list of organizations, it is a fairly simple process to start an organization.

http://carolinaunion.unc.edu/programs-orgs

 

I think "learn by doing" in this case also means learning how to find opportunities on your own. You don't have to join a club, but with so many to choose from you'd be pretty silly not to find one that you like, or make one that you like.

[Candid]

Candid, I don't understand your post.

 

My brother graduated about 8 years ago. I believe that his club was run through the student union, but I didn't bother to remember the name of it to find it in the list. If you look at the list you can search by type, and I saw that there are numerous healthcare-oriented ones.

 

The student union says:

 

http://carolinaunion...u/programs-orgs

 

I think "learn by doing" in this case also means learning how to find opportunities on your own. You don't have to join a club, but with so many to choose from you'd be pretty silly not to find one that you like, or make one that you like.

 

 

I see nothing there that indicates that these clubs operate like things you've said previously:

 

But becoming a member was the result of networking (I suppose each club had rules about if you had to be invited or if you could apply and be voted in), and each club had it's own flavor.

 

I also got the feeling that employers who are favorable to graduates from UNC-CH prefer to employ those who had belonged to a good club.

 

It's like an American-Southern equivalent of the British house system.

 

It seemed to me that UNC pushes that model (clubs get money and lots of support from the school) to teach the students how to network to achieve their own advancement.

 

 

 

Sure hands on work is suggested but that can come on the UNC campus in numerous ways like working with professors, volunteer work or clubs. Except for an active club adviser, I think most research opportunities and volunteer work are available equally to students without any club membership. I got my internship opportunity by directly contacting the local hospital's department I wanted to work for and a professor I like. (Note: I was not working in a health related field, but the hospital was a large employer and I wanted to train staff to use statistics so it was a good place to ask; plus my professor was interested in quality control circles which they used at the time.)

 

I suspect that it will depend on the area of study as well. For instance most students in the journalism expected to get their best accolades by working for the The Daily Tarheel not by being in a club.

 

I don't think UNC's clubs are any different than any other schools with the exception of schools that are dominated by fraternity /sorority or eating club systems. Your statements above seems to indicate they are.

 

Nor do I think they they accept members based on social networking. Most accept anyone who comes as a member. Some have ideological standards (think religious or political groups) and some have academic standards or skills (honor societies, music performance groups, etc).

 

But I have strong doubts about members being voted in based on social connections which you indicate above. This kind of system would get the university too tangled up in possibly discriminatory activities (see requirements for groups here: http://carolinaunion.unc.edu/programs-orgs/student-acts-orgs/requirements-official-university-recognition) While a club voting members in could claim to abide by this standard, it is doubtful that the university would accept this as a valid practice. This kind of practice does not match what the university says, "The University's commitment to equal opportunity for each member of its student body is unshakable. "

[Candid]

Note: I will take down the student response please don't quote.

 

Here's the first response I got from one of the students I know at UNC. I think it reads much like any driven student at a good school would write:

 

Edited.

 

Note: I'm not totally sure what he says about other schools is correct. BUT that is the perception he's gotten at UNC. Notice also the part I've bolded. I certainly have a healthy dose of that, still 30 years later. It is exactly what I've objected to in the posts above, if I have been less clear, forgive me.

[SarahW]

Candid, what I said was my own outsider impression of it.

 

What part of it do you so strongly object to? The social aspect? The SG website itself says that. The swing dances? That was tongue in cheek, it seemed that my brother's club did that a lot, which my Midwestern family thought was a bit odd. The networking? Okay, so it's not networking like "my uncle works there an can get you a job" but it is, "hey, I found out about this, who wants to go with me?" This is, I suspect, what the SG means by "We challenge them to gather and synthesize information. Based on this work, we expect them to develop a course of action that meets the standards of the University and allows them their self- and group expression." I think the student you quoted is saying the same thing when he says "On the same side of the coin though, elements, and definitely the concept, of networking exists in UNC through our campus societies. There is a lot of pressure to not just succeed in academics, but to hold leadership in one or two organizations and participate in even more." The fact that clubs have their own governments? The SG website itself talks about leadership. That clubs decide who can be a member? Of course, a club is a club.

 

It seems to me that you think I am describing something that I'm not. Which is why I am very confused about why you find this so agitating.

[Candid]

Sarah, swing dances are okay, although I suspect it was "shag" and "beach music" but I am not totally sure about that. I am dated when it comes to dancing. That part is a decidedly UNC thing (maybe a southern thing, although I am not sure).

 

It is the get into clubs based on who you know, they operate to get jobs by this social network, and employers look for "good" clubs. That kind of who you know thing is not at all how I would characterize UNC. Some of the young people I've known have started their own activities; so the part that is important is leadership not which club. I think that exists on all top notch campuses.

[SarahW]

Sarah, swing dances are okay, although I suspect it was "shag" and "beach music" but I am not totally sure about that. I am dated when it comes to dancing. That part is a decidedly UNC thing (maybe a southern thing, although I am not sure).

 

Nope, definitely swing dances. In a ballroom. Sometimes masked. I think my brother ended up purchasing a tux. He took living in the South very seriously. :)

 

It is the get into clubs based on who you know, they operate to get jobs by this social network, and employers look for "good" clubs. That kind of who you know thing is not at all how I would characterize UNC. Some of the young people I've known have started their own activities; so the part that is important is leadership not which club. I think that exists on all top notch campuses.

 

I think most employers who run fairs at UNC-CH are well aware of the social system, and expect to hire those who have been involved in club that did more than mostly party, that's all. And knowing people, yes, you can't be a bump on the log and expect to make friends who invite you to explore membership in the various groups. I suppose you could also approach a group and say "this is me, couldn't I join?" but then wouldn't the group want to know whether you would actually be a good fit? I'm not really sure how joining works, I just know that my brother joined a group that was outside of his major, and he had lots of friends in it.

 

I guess UNC-CH is egalitarian, but I didn't know of colleges that weren't. My brother certainly went there with no contacts and no connections, and he joined a good club and got employed by one of the top employers in town because he was a friendly guy who liked to get involved in things. I think that's what UNC expects will happen. I'm not sure what to call that exactly except networking. "Opening options by means of interpersonal social activities in a cohort"? I guess, but that's just life.

[Barbara H]

Swing dancing isn't just a Southern thing. You'll find swing dancing clubs at a lot of college campuses all around the country and many schools also offer competitive ballroom dance teams. That's not to say the majority of students are involved, but it is to say it has become a pretty standard offering on campuses. Here are some examples Yale, University of Iowa, UCLA

 

Swing dancing is a great activity and I'm happy to see this trend as a great social alternative to the party scene. If your child is interested I'd definately encourage it as it can be a fun way to meet people, learn something new, and get a little exercise too.

 

I'm not sure where the student post is from and as requested I won't quote it, but I will note that the description of Duke's process as well as the description of the Harvard application are both inaccurate.

[Candid]

I'm not sure where the student post is from and as requested I won't quote it, but I will note that the description of Duke's process as well as the description of the Harvard application are both inaccurate.

 

 

I mentioned this to his mom. I think it is more telling of the UNC attitude.

 

However, The Price of Admission does claim that $100,000 up front will get a mediocre child into an Ivy and Harvard is specifically mentioned (I believe but may remember incorrectly that is the price tag to be in some "roundtable" of Harvard donors). Duke often comes up when people write about "development admissions." Rachel Toor writes of this in her book on Duke admissions.

[Barbara H]

Certainly the process isn't all fair and developmental admissions play a role. It is worth noting though that Toor's book is now over 10 years old and she was writing in a time back when Duke was taking 40% on early admissions and 20% regular decision (now less than 10%) and the book wasn't very well respected even when it came out. Price of Admissions is a better book, but again, the information is getting dated.

 

The idea of $100,000 buying an acceptance Harvard is ridiculous. If that's how it worked two-thirds of the class would not be receiving some amount of financial aid. Harvard's acceptance rate is now below 6%. They are turning down many perfect scoring, full pay students.

[Candid]

The idea of $100,000 buying an acceptance Harvard is ridiculous. If that's how it worked two-thirds of the class would not be receiving some amount of financial aid. Harvard's acceptance rate is now below 6%. They are turning down many perfect scoring, full pay students.

 

I'm not sure I agree with the logic of what you say here. First, price is well documented. And I doubt that very many students pay this enormous cost (beyond tuition). And as you say times have changed. The economic down turn since the book was written has probably changed that ratio even more. Some folks who could have written that check before the book was written are no doubt accepting aid now.

 

Public university students are usually pretty sure this doesn't come into play at all. The few schools that have gotten caught (I think an Illinois school got caught recently but I'm less sure of that memory doing this have gotten into huge trouble both with the press and the state legislators. It certainly explains the attitude of my quoted student.

[Barbara H]

I'm not sure I agree with the logic of what you say here. First, price is well documented. And I doubt that very many students pay this enormous cost (beyond tuition). And as you say times have changed. The economic down turn since the book was written has probably changed that ratio even more. Some folks who could have written that check before the book was written are no doubt accepting aid now.

 

 

Harvard's endowment: $32,012,729,000. They charge $260,000 for four years and reject over 30,000 applicants a year (a large percentage of which can pay for the full cost of tuition). The students at the 25%tile of the class have 99%tile test scores. I know it is hard to process all those numbers, but $100,000 is like the price of a latte in this context. It is nothing.

[Candid]

Harvard's endowment: $32,012,729,000. They charge $260,000 for four years and reject over 30,000 applicants a year (a large percentage of which can pay for the full cost of tuition). The students at the 25%tile of the class have 99%tile test scores. I know it is hard to process all those numbers, but $100,000 is like the price of a latte in this context. It is nothing.

 

Nothing you've put here would mean that they or other schools don't have all these facts but still take some students purely on a financial giving basis. How else do endowments grow? I doubt that any college has had their endowment get back to pre- 2008 levels yet. And one thing I learned in the nonprofit world was no endowment is ever big enough.

 

You can see Harvard's Endowment's Return on Investment in a chart on page 51 of this report from 2010. That steep (almost straight downturn) had not yet even turned upward or leveled off in 2010 when the report was written. http://www.insidehig...wmentcrisis.pdf

 

Just because something is large doesn't mean that it is enough. Or that they aren't constantly looking for more $$.

[Barbara H]

Nothing you've put here would mean that they or other schools don't have all these facts but still take some students purely on a financial giving basis. How else do endowments grow? I doubt that any college has had their endowment get back to pre- 2008 levels yet.

 

 

Do development concerns matter? Sure. DId endowments suffer during the recession? Sure. Do finances play a huge role? Sure. But, $100,000 getting a medicore student into Harvard? Nope. If it is even possible to do that, it would involve a lot more zeros. If $100,000 up front is what it took there would be a lot less frenzy about selective admissions. Many people can easily afford $100,000 and would have no problem paying it.

[Barbara H]

Do development concerns matter? Sure. DId endowments suffer during the recession? Sure. Do finances play a huge role? Sure. But, $100,000 getting a medicore student into Harvard? Nope. If it is even possible to do that, it would involve a lot more zeros. If $100,000 up front is what it took there would be a lot less frenzy about selective admissions. Many people can easily afford $100,000 and would have no problem paying it.

 

Editing to add: The fundraising group at Harvard that is mentioned in the book Price of Admisions is for people who have donated or raised a minimum of 5 million and if there is an edge in admissions at that point it is speculation - did this child with test scores slightly below average get in? A far cry from hand me $100,000 and your mediocre kid gets in.

[Candid]

Do development concerns matter? Sure. DId endowments suffer during the recession? Sure. Do finances play a huge role? Sure. But, $100,000 getting a medicore student into Harvard? Nope. If it is even possible to do that, it would involve a lot more zeros. If $100,000 up front is what it took there would be a lot less frenzy about selective admissions. Many people can easily afford $100,000 and would have no problem paying it.

 

Editing to add: The fundraising group at Harvard that is mentioned in the book Price of Admisions is for people who have donated or raised a minimum of 5 million and if there is an edge in admissions at that point it is speculation - did this child with test scores slightly below average get in? A far cry from hand me $100,000 and your mediocre kid gets in.

 

 

I stand corrected. Please forgive my error! I pulled down the book to see what I remembered. You are correct the Harvard COUR is a higher price tag. The minimum is 1 million which is ten times my $100,000 amount.

 

I have a meeting this afternoon so I don't know if I'll turn up where in the book that number comes into play. I still think it is for the Ivy league and maybe Harvard, but it has been several years since I read the book.

 

On the other hand one thing I notice in scanning the Harvard chapter is that although lifetime admission to the group is 1 million, the four sets of parents who are listed by name all gave amounts between $250,000 - $500,000 in the years immediately preceding their mediocre children's admittance to Harvard. And the Kushner family is said to have given only $100,000 in a ten year period before their children's applications, but the book indicates that the family is extremely well connected politically. So the $100,000 number while not accurate is still in the ball park. And in reading that same range over several times it makes me think that they had been given something fairly pinpoint to give to get their children in.