Anyone ever truly considered unschooling?

[Ellie]

Ellie, did you require them to do any math, grammar, things like that? Did you ever worry that they weren't on track for that?

 

"On track" according to whom?

 

Neither dd finished a math text. Younger dd did Easy Grammar. Both aced their community college maths (algebra 1, algebra 2, statistics; I have no doubt they would have done well in other maths if they'd wanted to take them, but neither needed more math). Both aced all of their English classes. Well, ok, both graduated from the c.c. with close to 4.0 GPAs; older dd graduated from San Jose State with a BA in English literature and a 3.9 GPA (this was after she took some time to complete cosmetology school and work as a stylist. She paid her own way through college.)

 

Thank you all for sharing! I guess we will never be considered "true" unschoolers since math, reading, and handwriting are non-negotiables. But I am realizing that everything other than that is pretty negotiable, and that's okay for my family. :)

 

Unschooling isn't the only way for children to learn. :-)

 

I don't see why I should spend hours a day drilling history or grammar facts during elementary school when they could read books during that time, and learn what they truly need to learn in those areas in a very short period of time during middle or high school. It just has never seemed like a good use of my time.

 

:cheers2:

[albeto]

Ellie, did you require them to do any math, grammar, things like that? Did you ever worry that they weren't on track for that?

 

I don't require my kids to know anything. I do not, however, allow them to wander about ignorantly. ;)

 

Instead, when they pursue an interest, I help them get access to as much as I can. For example, when my youngest discovered rock climbing, I brought him to the rock climbing gym as much as possible. It's not just climbing at a rock climbing gym, there are certain paths one follows (in different levels of difficulty). He generalized this experience to other things in life: Sometimes you cannot solve the problem right away. It usually will take many attempts. Sometimes these attempts last for weeks, so instant gratification isn't expected. Once a goal is reached, there are usually a number of other goals in the process of being reached. These, too, require patience, tenacity, critical thinking, application of logic, trial and error, and help from others (which in turn inspires helping others). These "lessons" weren't taught to him, he simply learned them. They help him navigate other interests he's pursuing now. All my kids have a number of goals they're constantly reaching for, some are closer in reach than others, some will be discarded along the way to make room for others. Math and grammar, and history and all these academic skills are a means to an end for my kids. They aren't the goal (to get an "A" in math), but a means to obtain a particular, self-chosen goal (trigonometry makes engineering possible, and engineering is fun). As kids get older, their idea of "fun" matures with them, and the way they obtain their goals mature. Just like a 6 year old has the patience to find the right lego blocks to make a particular creation, a 16 year old has the patience to learn algebra ll to make a particular creation.

 

Thank you all for sharing! I guess we will never be considered "true" unschoolers since math, reading, and handwriting are non-negotiables. But I am realizing that everything other than that is pretty negotiable, and that's okay for my family. :)

 

There's no prize for being an unschooler. ;)

 

I don't see why I should spend hours a day drilling history or grammar facts during elementary school when they could read books during that time, and learn what they truly need to learn in those areas in a very short period of time during middle or high school. It just has never seemed like a good use of my time.

 

I don't either. Because I spend a lot of time with my kids, they know my interests and I know theirs. We talk about them, we share what we learn, we ask questions, we learn the answers to questions we don't know. My kids don't need to recite a particular lesson, so any idea or claim they propose had better make sense to a potentially critical audience. Attention to detail and critical thinking skills has to provide satisfactory answers to the questions of siblings and adults - "I dunno" or "it just is" doesn't cut it. Constructive criticism is as natural and helpful to them as being exposed to an idea for the first time. It's simply delving further into a subject they find interesting. Because they aren't compelled to focus on areas that do not interest them, they are not "turned off" by certain things. Granted, my boys aren't as interested in history, for example, but over the years they've come to know that being ignorant of history holds you back in all kinds of things, so when they learn something, they interpret it as relevant, or potentially relevant. Things that are relevant are easier to recall and apply than things that have to be memorized for an external reward (like a good grade).

[laughing lioness]

I think that the term unschooling has been rather watered down over the last couple of decades. When we started homeschooling, everyone was an "unschooler" (coined by Holt, because you didn't go to school). The families that I knew 20 years ago that were uber cool were the ones who followed their kids interests. (there weren't tons of options back then).

 

Even within the unschooling community you will find a huge range. The Colfaxes had regular, rigorous academic requirements (daily writing, the kids helped plan and build an actual house, etc). Their life was rigorous on many levels. One of the sons said, to the effect, that "work" was so hard that it was just easier to go study. Not every unschooler avoids all textbooks or formal learning.

 

I don't see why I should spend hours a day drilling history or grammar facts during elementary school when they could read books during that time, and learn what they truly need to learn in those areas in a very short period of time during middle or high school. It just has never seemed like a good use of my time.

 

Well, there are different levels of learning. There is overview and there is mastery. My kids have read voraciously about history and memorized a ton about it, and watched movies and listened to tapes and do more of the same in their free time. (we are lasagna schoolers- layer upon layer) They have an astonishing grasp of world events, who did what when where and how they interacted with the rest of the world.

Would they have "learned" the history w/o the memorization? It depends on how you are defining learn. Mastery is different than overview. Recognition is not recall, which is also not the ability to talk intelligently about something. So, sure your kids can "learn" stuff" by just reading. But how comprehensively - deep and wide- do they know it?

 

Understanding grammar facts unlocks good writing and is the key to learning a second language. Can you be a good writer and a second language learner w/o grammar facts? Sure. I was a good writer. Now that I have some basic grammar memorized I am a better one. Is that important? It depends on your goals.

[Ellie]

 

Even within the unschooling community you will find a huge range. The Colfaxes had regular, rigorous academic requirements (daily writing, the kids helped plan and build an actual house, etc). Their life was rigorous on many levels. One of the sons said, to the effect, that "work" was so hard that it was just easier to go study.

 

Well, you could put it that way. Or you could say that they lived on a goat ranch which they built from scratch, so everyone had to help build the house, and the children kept journals on the things they were doing around the ranch, which they all shared each day so they could all be on track. Neither of those was an academic requirement. The parents, of course, were fully aware of the things their sons were learning, but I doubt that they would say they had "regular, rigorous academic requirements." They did teach the boys to read, and they taught math up to algebra. After that, it was up to the boys to decide what they were going to do (and they said that doing schoolwork was much easier than goat farming, so they often chose schoolwork, lol).

[I.Dup.]

Neither dd finished a math text. Younger dd did Easy Grammar. Both aced their community college maths (algebra 1, algebra 2, statistics; I have no doubt they would have done well in other maths if they'd wanted to take them, but neither needed more math). Both aced all of their English classes. Well, ok, both graduated from the c.c. with close to 4.0 GPAs; older dd graduated from San Jose State with a BA in English literature and a 3.9 GPA (this was after she took some time to complete cosmetology school and work as a stylist. She paid her own way through college.)

 

 

Are you saying that after never having done formal math, they were able to ace their college exams? How is that possible?? /mindblown.

[PachiSusan]

 

Are you saying that after never having done formal math, they were able to ace their college exams? How is that possible?? /mindblown.

 

 

This is the part about unschooling that blows my mind too. HOW does it happen? :blink:

[regentrude]

Both aced their community college maths (algebra 1, algebra 2, statistics; I have no doubt they would have done well in other maths if they'd wanted to take them, but neither needed more math).

 

 

Does it still count as unschooling if high school level subjects are simply farmed out to a structured environment like CC, where the student can not decide what to work on and must follow the CC's rules? Or does it count, since the child has chosen to take the course? No criticism, I am just curious.

[Ellie]

 

Are you saying that after never having done formal math, they were able to ace their college exams? How is that possible?? /mindblown.

 

 

No, I didn't say that exactly. :-) I said they took algebra 1, algebra 2, and statistics and aced them. They were able to pass the math placement test at the community college; older dd took general math, a non-credit math class (high school level); both took pre-algebra, then algebra 1, etc. They aced the algebra and statistics. Younger dd thought about taking calc because it sounded like fun. :blink: As it turns out, our math was much like the math proposed in this article, except Mr. Boynton was way smarter than I and planned things that way. I never found a math text I liked (pre-Saxon, pre-new-edition R&S).

[I.Dup.]

Does it still count as unschooling if high school level subjects are simply farmed out to a structured environment like CC, where the student can not decide what to work on and must follow the CC's rules? Or does it count, since the child has chosen to take the course? No criticism, I am just curious.

 

 

but even if they start CC as a teenager and are able to do just fine on the tests after not doing any formal education? That's pretty good!

[Trilliums]

We were very relaxed homeschoolers. My kids struggled with most typical school work and I eventually decided to approach their education a different way. It took me a long time to accept this change in my attitude about what education looks like. We settled on an approach wehre they were busy taking in information but did little in the written output category. Unschooling is an easy way to describe it although at the time, I didn't use that term because I knew too many unschoolers who were unparenters, and that did not appeal to me at all.

 

I read TWTM when the kids were elementary ages. The structure simply would not work for us. When the kids were in middle school we discussed high school and college plans. At that time both kids decided they wanted to follow a plan similar to a rigorous high school experience. They knew they wanted to attend college and were already considering graduate school as well. Right at this time we moved to a new state where the high school offered classes well aligned to my kids' interests, primarily computer programming, engineering and AP sciences. We met a family loosely using TWTM in high school (and attending the ps part time) and at that time I joined these boards. We did tighten up schooling at that time, but it was definitely driven by my kids. I helped them stay on track, but I was not a task master to them. I think they had to want to do the work, and overwhelmingly they did want to. They are interested in so much! Finally, the kids were interested in outsourcing lab science classes and this led to trying out the public high school when oldest was in grade 9. His Chemistry honors and Engineering classes went exceptionally well with him having the highest percentage across all the classes. This year they enrolled in public high school full time (one is in grade 9 and one is in grade 10). They are exceedingly well prepared for honors and AP classes despite not having drilled math facts, grammar rules or scientific facts. The high school has high academic standards too--it is not as if they have found they can manage in watered down classes.

 

My older son is that kid who could not do elementary level math worksheets in grade 7 and is now advanced in math. He was definitely behind in most academic areas based on his written output. His conceptually development and verbal skills however, have long been quite high. He went from starting prealgebra in grade 8 to being halfway through Art of Problem Solving Calculus in grade 10, without me assigning any math, hovering over him, or grading his work. He is officially enrolled in precalculus honors at the high school, but he enjoys math so much, he works through the calculus book (he asked for it), watches videos on khan academy and has taken parts of calculus online through coursera. I know if this kid had been dragged along a typical math trajectory, he would have a different attitude about math. I don't know if he would still hate it as he did as early as grade 1, but I doubt he would have been able to excel at his own pace if I insisted on him working through a workbook in the typical manner.

 

We have used/tried/read/discarded many homeschooling programs and text books along the way, especially as the kids hit preteens. We have talked about everything under the sun too. We are voracious library users and audio book lovers. When they were around grade 6 and 7 we talked about writing skills and ways to develop them. I showed them some writing programs and we ended up trying out SWI B. Both kids were on board with doing this program. They wanted to be able to write and agreed this could be a useful approach. Younger son ended up doing about 90% of the program and older son did about 70%. WWS 1 was the same experience.

 

We have so much freedom in homeschooling. Definitely do what works for you and your family. I can say that I was extremely scared to try an unschooling approach. I imagined my kids forever behind and without skills. It just isn't true!!!

[Guest ezmama2]

I am finding it way more productive at this stage to do a combination--we use a reading program, but everything else is as we live and interact in the community. He asked for a numbers workbook, I got him one. I have a lot of manipulatives and games we treat as toys. We listen to news and explore the library a lot. I'm not sure how I'll feel in the future, but my guy just turned 5 and it works well now :)

[Ellie]

 

but even if they start CC as a teenager and are able to do just fine on the tests after not doing any formal education? That's pretty good!

 

 

Yes. And they were just 14yo. :-)

[laughing lioness]

Well, you could put it that way. Or you could say that they lived on a goat ranch which they built from scratch, so everyone had to help build the house, and the children kept journals on the things they were doing around the ranch, which they all shared each day so they could all be on track. Neither of those was an academic requirement. The parents, of course, were fully aware of the things their sons were learning, but I doubt that they would say they had "regular, rigorous academic requirements." They did teach the boys to read, and they taught math up to algebra. After that, it was up to the boys to decide what they were going to do (and they said that doing schoolwork was much easier than goat farming, so they often chose schoolwork, lol).

 

Actually Mikki Colfax, a former university prof DID require daily journal entries and math was required. They did use textbooks when it suited them (as in, suited the parents). The lifestyle was one of the decision makers for what they did-the goat farmer was an outgrowth of the lack of money, as was the yearly camps. You could say they lived on a ranch and unschooled and everybody followed whatever interests they wanted. That would be misleading. They all built the house because they all lived in a pop up until the house was built. They started the goat ranching because they didn't have a regular source of income besides cutting fire-wood. Grant was busy researching how to make more money. Same with the camps.*

 

Either way, how they lived compared to how "unschooling" is bandied about today probably mean 2 very different things (which was my point). I think the difference that I am trying to get at is a level of intensity of learning/living/experience. Because the Colfax's were back to the landers- their kids were expected, encouraged and forced to do wild and crazy things (like start a goat farmer biz using thier last bit of money). I don't see that level of sustained intensity in the unschoolers of today, unlike the unshcoolers of 10-20 years ago. There is so much more ease and entertainment, which blocks out the large amounts of time and space and pressure to create and learn and grow-

 

And honestly, Ellie-it cracks me up we are always the ones butting heads on this issue because we are probably coming at things philosophically from a similar place.

 

*You can read more about it at Hard Times in Paradise and some old newspaper/mag articles, radio recordings.

[briansmama]

I loved researching unschooling when my first was an infant. I find a lot of respect and wisdom in Holt's writing, as well as John Taylor Gatto's, and David Albert's, Sandra Dodd's, and even Steiner's view that children shouldn't begin formal ed until age 11 or 12 (he started his waldorf schools at younger ages to please the state) etc. One thing that I've noticed though is that when many of these authors wrote their work, homeschooling was somewhat polarized (either you were homeschooling for religious reasons or you were very motivated to break free of conformity).

 

So, in my opinion, what Albert did with his musically talented daughters was different than standardized Ed, and Holt's view of Ed was also very different from standardized Ed, but not always different from the many alternative methods that exist today. These are just thoughts I've had reading their work, and others may disagree, but decades ago literature-based learning according to Charlotte Mason's methods and Waldorf Ed may have been considered unschooling. Now, not so much in many homeschooling circles.

 

I'm not sure that Project Based Learning would even be considered unschooling now, but it certainly would have fit that description 15 years ago.

 

So, my point is that while I don't identify with radical unschooling (at all) I also am not interested in doing anything that resembles standardized Ed with my own dc. There are many many ways to empower children to autonomously learn and many ways to facilitate and mentor our dc learning. It really comes down to what resonates with your family. And I think that is so exciting!

[laughing lioness]

I loved researching unschooling when my first was an infant. I find a lot of respect and wisdom in Holt's writing, as well as John Taylor Gatto's, and David Albert's, Sandra Dodd's, and even Steiner's view that children shouldn't begin formal ed until age 11 or 12 (he started his waldorf schools at younger ages to please the state) etc. One thing that I've noticed though is that when many of these authors wrote their work, homeschooling was somewhat polarized (either you were homeschooling for religious reasons or you were very motivated to break free of conformity).

 

So, in my opinion, what Albert did with his musically talented daughters was different than standardized Ed, and Holt's view of Ed was also very different from standardized Ed, but not always different from the many alternative methods that exist today. These are just thoughts I've had reading their work, and others may disagree, but decades ago literature-based learning according to Charlotte Mason's methods and Waldorf Ed may have been considered unschooling. Now, not so much in many homeschooling circles.

 

I'm not sure that Project Based Learning would even be considered unschooling now, but it certainly would have fit that description 15 years ago.

 

So, my point is that while I don't identify with radical unschooling (at all) I also am not interested in doing anything that resembles standardized Ed with my own dc. There are many many ways to empower children to autonomously learn and many ways to facilitate and mentor our dc learning. It really comes down to what resonates with your family. And I think that is so exciting!

 

 

:iagree: Yes. Especially the bolded. (though I do think that thre are some time honored methods that works better than others- :001_smile:

[Ellie]

 

 

I'm not sure that Project Based Learning would even be considered unschooling now, but it certainly would have fit that description 15 years ago.

 

 

 

Project-based learning is fun, but it is still not unschooling, not 15 years ago, not in 1982 when I first read all of John Holt's books. :001_smile:

[quark]

Project-based learning is fun, but it is still not unschooling, not 15 years ago, not in 1982 when I first read all of John Holt's books. :001_smile:

 

Asking from curiosity Ellie...if the project was initiated, planned, a list of materials made etc. completely by the child, some of the materials purchased from his savings etc, isn't that considered unschooling? I.e the drive/ motivation is completely from the child.

[HS Mom in NC]

:huh:

 

I understand the words you wrote, but I don't understand them together in one sentence.

 

I don't know what "high quality unschooling" is.

 

I don't believe that children have to be "self-starters" to learn about life, which is what unschooling is.

 

Unschooling is a lifestyle.

And it's ok that you think unschooling wouldn't work for you. We all do things differently, and there isn't one way of learning that is better than another. :-)

 

High quality unschooling, as I see it, is like anything else. Even great ideas can be badly executed. I believe that even unschooling can be a bad fit for some children even if the parents are on board. So, the real life unschooling parents I know (I've been a part of a very large group of them-a few dozen families that met monthly) had children who were mostly getting a high quality unschooling experience because they were learning, exploring, creating. Then there were those whose children were not getting quality. One kid in his mid teens has just been playing violent video games all day and night for years. That's it. His mother was OK with that. That's not high quality. That's a child who doesn't have enough self motivation to do anything else, so his parents needed to direct him into broadening his world out like the rest of the unschooling parents were doing. If they weren't willing to do some directing, then he needed a different educational appraoch because it was clearly a bad fit for him.

 

When I say they weren't motivated, I didn't mean what you typed:

 

"It isn't something where you give your children a few weeks to explore their own interests and then decide that they aren't motivated because they didn't want to learn the kinds of things you think they should have." Why did you assume that?

 

When I told them they could pursue whatever interests they wanted they couldn't come up with anything at all for days. Then the oldest decided she wanted to learn the guitar, so I got her one and she didn't actually play it at all. When I suggested she find something else, she checked out a single book in India which she didn't read. What did she want to do? Text her friends and watch movies. The middle kid would just shrug her shoulders. She did a little origami and we got her books and papers for it. She did it for a few days then just wanted to reread books she's read before (the Harry Potter Series.) I have no problem with her rereading those books yet again but frankly, that's not enough. I'm not going to have her read Harry Potter for literally the 4th time because isn't learning about life. She already knows every bit of Harry Potter trivia there is. That's not high quality the 4th time around. Not everything a child wants to do is worth doing. Sometimes they want to do nothing. If they're exploring something or creating something I'm all for it. They didn't want to inestigate, explore or create.

[Walking-Iris]

I've always had a leaning toward unschooling. My oldest is on the spectrum and it just didn't work for it to be totally child-led. So I schedule his time and make sure he realizes what needs to be done. Having a child dx'ed PDD and OCD means that I could strew till I dropped but he would not willingly come out of his very limited interests in order to expand them. I nearly always have to prod him into new ideas and learning.

 

So I have to take more of an initiative than I feel is common among unschoolers to lay out a plan and to require certain learning and output. Total unschooling would not be the best for my child. I compromise though.

 

I talk with my son and show him what needs to be done this week. But I let him pick the order and the time and usually the depth of the activity. I also don't care about grade levels or being "ahead, behind. on track" etc. None of that matters to me. I was more than willing to drop SOTW to follow his interest in Am History and civics. I do not care if we get "through" a book this year or if we skip around or if we drop it entirely.

 

I do try to pick curriculum that has choices built into them. And some I choose because of the unschooling "free" feel about them. Such as Bravewriter for example. I'm also more than willing to drop something is a child is choosing at that moment something educational and productive. We've had whole days where my ds just wanted to keep reading a book he was engrossed in. Fine. We have our weekly plan and he knows that the time to complete it is up to him. I do not schedule things 9:00 this for 20 minute and then the next thing. The clock has no bearing on our learning. I would say our schedule is more like goals. I do try to plan with him, but there definitely are things Mom expected. Some things are non negotiable. My child must learn how to read and write and compute. They cannot say they do not want to practice phonics for days on end. Some things are just going to get done, like it or not. I think that's very anti unschooling usually. As long as the subjects required by my state are covered weekly and then we add in others that interest us.

 

So relaxed and eclectic is how I would describe us. The time I spent trying unschooling and the few radical unschoolers I have talked with, I just knew that it was not quite for us.

[HS Mom in NC]

I find kids who are like this excel in conventional schooling as well. Some kids simply learn and can apply information at a faster rate than others. In my opinion, unschooling is just as beneficial to kids who do not fit into this kind of category.

 

This isn't unschooling. Unschooling isn't about the parent leading the child, but about the child learning naturally, within the context of his or her environment. What you're explaining doesn't reflect the child learning naturally, but the parent determining what "subjects" are necessary, and the child's input being included in how the parent provides that learning experience.

 

I hear this idea a lot, and without meaning to put you on the spot, I would only suggest that you might not be familiar with the concept of unschooling enough to recognize how education can work without imposed routines such as bed times or tv access. Some people use the modifier "radical" to differentiate their family dynamics. As this means changing the root of things, a "radical unschooler" is the kind of person who changes the root of the entire family dynamic, not just the educational ones. There aren't too many families who adopt this kind of lifestyle, but those of us who do no more lack parenting skills than any other group of parent. It's a completely unrelated correlation (not to mention, the subjective nature of what "unparenting" even means).

 

My kids have no bedtimes. They have no restrictions on tv. Some play violent video games, others don't. They don't do the same thing all day and all night. They did much more so when we first stopped conventional expectations, but like everything, new interests came up and they no longer felt like they had to "hoard" a particular experience. It was no longer the forbidden fruit, but one of many, many choices to be made. Currently, my kids are just as likely to watch a lesson about computer programming, or learn a foreign language on a Saturday night as they are on a Monday afternoon. There's no connection between "weekend" and "freedom" for them because there's no connection between "weekday" and "work." All learning is work, and all work is learning, one isn't "worse" than the other - they simply go together.

 

Limited chunks of time without imposed academic expectations does not offer an unschooling experience. Again, I don't mean to put you on the spot or correct you or make you uncomfortable in any way. I do apologize if my post comes across like this. I mean only to take your comments and add my own thoughts in a general way, not personal to you. It just so happens that your post has some common impressions of unschooling and I think the OP is interested in learning about it, so I'm taking your comments as an opportunity to add my own impressions. I hope this makes sense (need more coffee). Anyway, by offering limited time to fit one's personal interests, the child learns to quickly fit in the most important experiences first. The forbidden fruit is the one reached for right away because the child knows it will be forbidden again. Unschooling removes this concept so that one experience isn't forbidden, and others aren't "less" in the respect of being ignored until they have no choice but to attend to them.

 

For example, one child learned calculus because that would help him understand chemistry. He wanted to understand chemistry because that was the next detail in his personal interest - microbiology. Another child wanted very much to be surrounded by teen peers, so she picked up a math book, did one lesson after another over the course of a few months, until she was caught up with her peers and could go to the local high school. Her interests are more socially oriented and so learning math, for her, was just like learning math for her brother - a means to a more desirable end. For both of them, math was a tool, a way to get what they wanted. It was never considered a chore or an obligation, but an opportunity. THIS is what unschooling is - allowing a child to learn based on finding and taking advantages of opportunities.

 

You seem unaware that there are different schools of thought in the unschooling community. There are people other than John Holt who write on the subject. Are you from a very small unschooling community? Is your unschooling community closed to people who are part of the other schools of thought on unschooling? The unschooling group I spent a few years with had several dozen families in it who defined and did it differently. You can acknowledge different schools of thought without agreeing with them, you know. No one owns the term unschooling. Every educational philosophy has different ways of interpreting and apply a core thought. There are variations of Classical Education: Trivium, Living Books, and the Statesman model from TJED. I don't go around telling people who do it differently than me that they're not Classical Homeschoolers.

 

Unschoolers with rigid attitudes about what was the right or pure way of doing it is a frequent topic of conversation in the unschooling community. They complained regularly about that attitude. When people would come to the group to learn about unschooling, they would be told there was a wide range of approaches then each unschooler would define and describe unschooling differently.

 

They also lamented examples of unschoolers who were executing a great idea badly and it reflected negatively on all unschoolers. Now and then there were products of unschooling that left young adults without basic skill sets that limited their options for the future. One was a woman in the group that I personally met several times had a son in his mid teens who only played violent video games-for years. He had no limits and no one was bothering to direct him to do something in addition to playing video games. This certainly wasn't what most unschooling kids did all day, but it's not an idea I had. It's a reality. Clearly he needs a different approach.

 

It's useful when discussing educational philosophies to recognize that 1. different people have different ways of doing it 2. it's not a good fit for every child even if mom and dad are on board and 3. all good ideas can be executed badly. When people seriously consider doing something, these are the kinds of things they consider. Balanced discussions about philosophical ideas include them too.

[sewingmama]

I just don't understand how unschooling gets any child ready for college or a career. I've looked into it and it is not for us. We're not super regimented but I know unschooling would NOT work for us.

 

 

I think it is all in the way you define what unschooling means.

 

To me unschooling means "educating your children in a different manner to what schools do". You are still educating them but you are not using a planned out curriculum, or drill and kill or whatever other method a school uses.

 

Most people I know think unschooling is synonymous for uneducating. You let the child do whatever the heck they want with no input from you.

 

Unschooling could work fine for most people ....uneducating is what will keep your kids out of college.

[PachiSusan]

I think it is all in the way you define what unschooling means.

 

To me unschooling means "educating your children in a different manner to what schools do". You are still educating them but you are not using a planned out curriculum, or drill and kill or whatever other method a school uses.

 

Most people I know think unschooling is synonymous for uneducating. You let the child do whatever the heck they want with no input from you.

 

Unschooling could work fine for most people ....uneducating is what will keep your kids out of college.

 

 

This explanation makes a great deal of sense to me and I see that I've mostly been thinking of unschooling as uneducating. Thank you for the mind shift!

[Farrar]

When I say they weren't motivated, I didn't mean what you typed:

 

"It isn't something where you give your children a few weeks to explore their own interests and then decide that they aren't motivated because they didn't want to learn the kinds of things you think they should have." Why did you assume that?

 

When I told them they could pursue whatever interests they wanted they couldn't come up with anything at all for days. Then the oldest decided she wanted to learn the guitar, so I got her one and she didn't actually play it at all. When I suggested she find something else, she checked out a single book in India which she didn't read. What did she want to do? Text her friends and watch movies. The middle kid would just shrug her shoulders. She did a little origami and we got her books and papers for it. She did it for a few days then just wanted to reread books she's read before (the Harry Potter Series.) I have no problem with her rereading those books yet again but frankly, that's not enough. I'm not going to have her read Harry Potter for literally the 4th time because isn't learning about life. She already knows every bit of Harry Potter trivia there is. That's not high quality the 4th time around. Not everything a child wants to do is worth doing. Sometimes they want to do nothing. If they're exploring something or creating something I'm all for it. They didn't want to inestigate, explore or create.

 

But what you describe sounds exactly like what Ellie said. In unschooling there would be no judgment that it's not high quality enough. And when I've talked to unschoolers, a lot of them talk about this process as taking years... not days or weeks or even months.

 

Don't get me wrong. I also feel reluctant to let go to that extent. But I would say that's what makes me not an unschooler.

[albeto]

You seem unaware that there are different schools of thought in the unschooling community....

 

Perhaps I stand corrected. I would not have considered a parent scheduling academic subjects and lessons as unschooling. Also, I wonder if you can maybe expand on your idea about what you call, "extreme free range children," and "unparenting." What does "unparenting" mean? What kinds of behaviors separates "parenting" from "unparenting"?

 

It's useful when discussing educational philosophies to recognize that 1. different people have different ways of doing it

 

Sure, but when a discussion revolves around unschooling, describing how one schools their children is a bit irrelevant, at least in my opinion.

 

2. it's not a good fit for every child even if mom and dad are on board and

 

Being "on board" and being effective aren't synonymous.

 

3. all good ideas can be executed badly. When people seriously consider doing something, these are the kinds of things they consider. Balanced discussions about philosophical ideas include them too.

 

No doubt.

[Ellie]

 

Asking from curiosity Ellie...if the project was initiated, planned, a list of materials made etc. completely by the child, some of the materials purchased from his savings etc, isn't that considered unschooling? I.e the drive/ motivation is completely from the child.

 

Yes, it could be, but generally when people talk about project-based learning, that's not usually what they really mean. Most unschoolers don't do lots of "projects." :-)

[Farrar]

 

Asking from curiosity Ellie...if the project was initiated, planned, a list of materials made etc. completely by the child, some of the materials purchased from his savings etc, isn't that considered unschooling? I.e the drive/ motivation is completely from the child.

 

I'm curious too. If you read Lori Pickert's book, it sounds a LOT like unschooling to me, though through a certain lens. And it's definitely not radical unschooling - parents are encouraged to be hands on. But it's completely child-led and she talks about honoring projects you don't immediately think have value and learning to butt out and let the child be in charge - you're basically just the encourager and tape supplier. Of course, there are other types of project-based learning that are *not* unschooling or borderline unschooling, but the Camp Creek style seems that way to me.

 

Also, I'm curious, Ellie, what you think of radical unschoolers these days? Somehow I have trouble picturing you doing some of the things that I have read or heard of some radical unschooler types allowing with their kids.

[albeto]

But what you describe sounds exactly like what Ellie said. In unschooling there would be no judgment that it's not high quality enough. And when I've talked to unschoolers, a lot of them talk about this process as taking years... not days or weeks or even months.

 

I agree with this. I do think it's a bit misleading, though, if the idea is that the parent doesn't judge the quality of one's learning, and doesn't do anything about it. Unschooling is not "education away from a schedule." It's not "education without text books." It's the same kind of learning your preschooler did without the benefit of formal lessons. When our kids were infants, toddlers, and preschoolers, we saw them interact with their environment, learn cause and effect, explore, create goals, succeed at some goals, fail at others, modify some, and walk away from some. We knew what would help them reach their goals and showed them when we saw they were ready. We didn't teach our 9 month old to tie a show, but neither did we wait for "shoe tying lesson, week 37 of the school year." We saw they needed a new size of shoes, and we saw they were running and jumping and playing pretty hard. We saw that certain shoes worked for some situations better than others, and learning to tie a lace, or buckle a buckle, gave them the independence they wanted to pursue the goal they already had without our help. This is natural learning for the human animal. Unschooling allows this development to continue past age 4, or 7, or 12, or whenever formal lessons are believed to be necessary.

 

So the idea that a child's interests aren't "quality enough" is really a bit of a misdirection of the concept. Every interest is "quality enough" in that it addresses a particular skill that child is naturally gravitating towards (this is, I think, the concept of "trusting the child" that people talk about without really explaining). Playing video games fills a particular desire for the child. The parent who spends time with the child, yeah, even playing these games, finds out what these interests are. They may be an interest in mechanical engineering, and video games have wicked cool, imaginative machines. There may be an interest in hunting or pursuing, which is a logical process requiring split-second decision making, taking into account multiple variables with precious little time to process them. It may be a social thing, and hanging out with friends is the deeper desire. In these cases, video games are a means to an end, and the parent who familiarizes herself with the child's interests can then provide more experiences that provide additional information.

 

As we all know, parents makes judgements all the time. Those judgement calls that do not conform with our personal level of comfort should not be confused with not judging.

[albeto]

And it's definitely not radical unschooling - parents are encouraged to be hands on.

 

This is an interesting comment. Do you understand radical unschoolers to not be hands-on, or am I misinterpreting you? I don't mean to, so I would be happy to be corrected. :)

[Ellie]

I don't feel the need to modify "unschoolers" by adding "radical." :-) You're either an unschooler or you're not. :-)

 

Lori Pickert's book sounds interesting, and her blog-site looks interesting. And fun. And educational. I'd be far more likely to homeschool her way than to enroll my dc in ABeka Academy or CLASS. But it isn't unschooling. That isn't a bad thing at all. It's like saying *this* is a banana and *this* is Grumpy Cat. Two different things that are both good.

 

To know what unschooling really is, you have to read Holt. All of Holt. Mary Hood's "relaxed homeschooling" is so close to unschooling as to hardly be able to tell the difference. She has explained it to me over breakfast, but the nuances escape me, lol.

 

Where I differ from Holt is that I don't unparent. I think children need rules, guidelines, and boundaries, and sometimes correction and discipline. I don't think they'll learn good table manners on their own, or good personal hygiene, or how to clean the kitchen. I don't think children should have the right to vote, either. o_0 But otherwise, Holt made a big impact on my life; I see his influence in many things I do. Which makes it all the more weird that I started a small, one-room school, with children being required to wear uniforms and everything. What's up with that? :lol:

[Ellie]

High quality unschooling, as I see it, is like anything else.

 

And see, I'm lost right there. I don't believe there's such a thing as "high-quality" unschooling. Or "low-quality" unschooling. There is unschooling. "Quality" doesn't enter into it. I also wouldn't say "high-quality classical," or "high-quality Charlotte Mason." It would just even occur to me to use the term "high-quality" in relation to how people teach their children at home. :blink:

[Farrar]

 

This is an interesting comment. Do you understand radical unschoolers to not be hands-on, or am I misinterpreting you? I don't mean to, so I would be happy to be corrected. :)

 

No, I think I was just over-simplifying. The book in question (Project-Based Homeschooling) talks about spending time really encouraging kids to do projects and getting involved in their projects. Also about setting up an environment that encourages projects. It just also wants them to be child-led and for parents to know when to back off. My impression of radical unschoolers is that they would not spend that time encouraging and specifically looking for that spark or that project... Instead, they would let it arise or not arise as the case may be. And then only be as involved as the child wanted.

 

Feel free to correct me, I think of that gentle pushing that this particular book was describing as being, in a sense, the fuzzy line between unschoolers and radical unschoolers. That families who are unschoolers would feel like they could gently push their children toward finishing things or learning things while still leaving it ultimately up to the child, while families at the more radical end would feel like that motivation needs to come completely from within the child and they're waiting to be asked to help.

 

I guess in a way that's more hands off. But it would be coming from a philosophical place.

[quark]

And when I've talked to unschoolers, a lot of them talk about this process as taking years... not days or weeks or even months.

 

This is my understanding and take-away as well. That it takes time. And trust. Lots of trust.

[albeto]

No, I think I was just over-simplifying. The book in question (Project-Based Homeschooling) talks about spending time really encouraging kids to do projects and getting involved in their projects. Also about setting up an environment that encourages projects. It just also wants them to be child-led and for parents to know when to back off. My impression of radical unschoolers is that they would not spend that time encouraging and specifically looking for that spark or that project... Instead, they would let it arise or not arise as the case may be. And then only be as involved as the child wanted.

 

Feel free to correct me, I think of that gentle pushing that this particular book was describing as being, in a sense, the fuzzy line between unschoolers and radical unschoolers. That families who are unschoolers would feel like they could gently push their children toward finishing things or learning things while still leaving it ultimately up to the child, while families at the more radical end would feel like that motivation needs to come completely from within the child and they're waiting to be asked to help.

 

I guess in a way that's more hands off. But it would be coming from a philosophical place.

 

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for explaining. It's my understanding that "radical" denotes bringing the philosophy into all areas of parenting, not just academics. I think now it's a modifier many unschoolers reject because it's as useless as saying "lima bean-loving unschoolers." It doesn't explain the educational philosophy, so it's a superfluous label.

 

Anyway, I'm not familiar with the book, I just know that my idea of projects and my kids idea of projects are not always the same, and when they learned that pursuing their own interests would be respected, they learned to recognize my [what I thought was] subtle attempts at steering them in one direction or another. My suggestion to do a particular project started to sound as appealing as my husband saying, "Pull my finger!" Doesn't matter how exciting the person tries to make it sound, they know what we're trying to get them to do, you know? ;)

[briansmama]

I've always had a leaning toward unschooling. My oldest is on the spectrum and it just didn't work for it to be totally child-led. So I schedule his time and make sure he realizes what needs to be done. Having a child dx'ed PDD and OCD means that I could strew till I dropped but he would not willingly come out of his very limited interests in order to expand them. I nearly always have to prod him into new ideas and learning.

 

So I have to take more of an initiative than I feel is common among unschoolers to lay out a plan and to require certain learning and output. Total unschooling would not be the best for my child. I compromise though.

 

I talk with my son and show him what needs to be done this week. But I let him pick the order and the time and usually the depth of the activity. I also don't care about grade levels or being "ahead, behind. on track" etc. None of that matters to me. I was more than willing to drop SOTW to follow his interest in Am History and civics. I do not care if we get "through" a book this year or if we skip around or if we drop it entirely.

 

I do try to pick curriculum that has choices built into them. And some I choose because of the unschooling "free" feel about them. Such as Bravewriter for example. I'm also more than willing to drop something is a child is choosing at that moment something educational and productive. We've had whole days where my ds just wanted to keep reading a book he was engrossed in. Fine. We have our weekly plan and he knows that the time to complete it is up to him. I do not schedule things 9:00 this for 20 minute and then the next thing. The clock has no bearing on our learning. I would say our schedule is more like goals. I do try to plan with him, but there definitely are things Mom expected. Some things are non negotiable. My child must learn how to read and write and compute. They cannot say they do not want to practice phonics for days on end. Some things are just going to get done, like it or not. I think that's very anti unschooling usually. As long as the subjects required by my state are covered weekly and then we add in others that interest us.

 

So relaxed and eclectic is how I would describe us. The time I spent trying unschooling and the few radical unschoolers I have talked with, I just knew that it was not quite for us.

 

This. This really resonates with us as well. I love this post, thank you for sharing.

[laughing lioness]

 

 

Most people I know think unschooling is synonymous for uneducating.

 

 

It's almost come to mean "educational nihilism" - which is why I always say, "classical unschooling." (this, coming from someone who has read all of Holt, Summerhill and had Mary Hood speak at a regional homeschooling conference.).

[justme824]

This has been an interesting read. We've been unschoolers for years, and even though I've been considering a change, it looks like we will be continuing down this same past for another year, if not longer. No regrets so far. And just taking each day/week/month/year as it comes :)

[briansmama]

This is a great article in Life Learning that touches on a lot of what is being discussed here:

 

http://www.lifelearningmagazine.com/1304/liberate_your_education_unschooling_is_not_one-size-fits-all.htm

 

"The term “unschooling†was coined by John Holt in the second edition of his magazine Growing Without Schooling in 1977. He used the word there to mean “taking kids out of school.â€

 

During the 1980s, the term “homeschooling†was the generic term and “unschooling†or “life learning†came to mean home education without a curriculum. The distinction seems to have come about because home education practice was so diverse as to defy one term."

[Ellie]

 

 

Feel free to correct me, I think of that gentle pushing that this particular book was describing as being, in a sense, the fuzzy line between unschoolers and radical unschoolers. That families who are unschoolers would feel like they could gently push their children toward finishing things or learning things while still leaving it ultimately up to the child, while families at the more radical end would feel like that motivation needs to come completely from within the child and they're waiting to be asked to help.

 

 

Maybe. I just don't feel the need to quantify "unschoolers" or "unschooling" by labeling this family an unschooler and that family a *radical* unschooler. Either you is or you ain't. :D

[Critterfixer]

No, I have not really considered unschooling as a way to homeschool. I sort of see unschooling as "going into the wilderness" and quite frankly, I prefer my trails. We might wander off now and then, but I like to know where the path lies.

[Nan in Mass]

 

 

Yes, it could be, but generally when people talk about project-based learning, that's not usually what they really mean. Most unschoolers don't do lots of "projects." :-)

 

So, what do you call it when a child works on something? Or an adult, for that matter? I have projects. Some are big ones, like trying to learn how to do watercolour painting. Some are small, like making covers for the kitchen stools. Some even involve textbooks and classes at times, like my project of learning how to speak Spanish. My sons have things we call projects, too, like oldest going to Alaska to help a friend get started homesteading or figuring out how his union benefits work, middle one making a curtain to keep the sun off his laptop or learning how to walk a slackline, or youngest investigating eidetic memory or trying to build a suit of invincible armor. Only one of those people did the project "for school". I didn't have anything more to do with the school project than I did with the post-school projects except to tell youngest that for me to put the project on his academic transcript it had to involve academics - some reading and some sort of concrete output that I could list when I made up the course description. There is a section on his transcript labeled "independent projects" which has a list of the projects and the amount of credit they are worth. I had to have my son's help with both the amount of credit and the course description and title because I wasn't really involved with the projects, other than problem-solving when asked or supplying credit card numbers when ordering materials or books. I didn't think up the original ideas. When I noticed he was spending lots of time on something, I asked if this was something we should be counting for school and he would say yes or no, depending on how much he thought he was learning and whether he thought there would be an academic component. We listed electronics under his independent projects, but that was really a series of independent projects which I filled out with a few projects that were somebody else's idea (like building a multimeter kit) or a request he investigate a particular area in order to make the course match somebody else's preconceived idea of an electronics course. The rest of the projects weren't slose enough to a standard course to need this sort of back-filling.

 

Our projects aren't anything like what I think of as unit studies, where an adult takes something like the Egyptian pyramids and says, "Now let's see - we can cover some geometry by doing this project and if we read some myths that will be some literature and they can do a compare-and-contrast paper about South American pyramids and that will be writing. Unit studies seem like an unbelievable amount of work to organize to me. I seriously doubt I could pull them off successfully. Besides, my sons would have reorganized it, making all that work for naught. I've never managed the sort of "sneaky" homeschooling where you disguise a parental educational goal as a piece of the child's interest, either. Mine just complained that I was ruining their fun, and I could see their point. They didn't want me taking control of their interest. They just wanted to satisfy their curiosity. Their education was one long negotiation as it was, with me figuring out how to meet their longterm goals and trying to stitch the pieces they created on their own together with the things I thought they would need into something that looked like it would prepare them for adulthood and college. I mostly organized and filled holes. It was much easier to be able to tell them "do this so it fills this hole" than it would have been for me to think up some way for them to fill the hole while they thought they were doing something else. Not sure I'm making sense lol.

 

It would have been much easier if I'd just been aiming them to start community college classes at 14, I think, and we talked about that (or sending them to the high school) but they were learning so much traveling that it seemed like a bad idea to take away something that was teaching them SO much and substitute something else instead. There were scheduling conflicts so the two didn't mix well.

 

Ellie - What did you call what your children did? And did you ever have to turn that into a high school transcript for them?

 

I have a friend who is going to take your approach, I think (life until community college at about 14), so I am particularly interested. To pass the placement tests, they have to have basic math skills, pass a reading test, and write an essay. I think if their essay isn't graded high enough, all that happens is that they won't place into comp 1 and will have to take the remedial writing class, which shouldn't be a problem, especially starting at about 14 lol.

 

Nan

[Ellie]

My children learned stuff. They earned Camp Fire badges. They participated in 4-H projects. They took Highland dance classes and competed at Highland games. They read the books we got from the library weekly. They went on weekly field trips. They were learning all the time, but I can't think of anything they did that I would really call a "project." Maybe their 4-H activities...

 

My dds did community college instead of high school. :-) But I have unschooling friends whose dc put together transcripts for Texas A&M, UT, and seminary. :-)

[I.Dup.]

My dds did community college instead of high school. :-)

 

Why did you choose to do this? I am going to have to be doing more studying on this community college thing as my dd is only 2.5 years away from being 14. I didn't realize people started that early, I was thinking more like 16, and even then I'm not exactly sure what the benefits are. I know you can get a 2-year degree before 18 and that seems like a huge benefit, but do you have to technically complete high school courses before they will let you take community college courses?

[Critterfixer]

I started community college courses at 15. I took a placement test to get in.

Not sure whether it is that simple anymore. I had not completed many high school level courses prior to that point. Don't know what that says about the community college placement test.

[justme824]

 

 

Why did you choose to do this? I am going to have to be doing more studying on this community college thing as my dd is only 2.5 years away from being 14. I didn't realize people started that early, I was thinking more like 16, and even then I'm not exactly sure what the benefits are. I know you can get a 2-year degree before 18 and that seems like a huge benefit, but do you have to technically complete high school courses before they will let you take community college courses?

 

 

I'd be interested in knowing this as well.

[Ellie]

 

Why did you choose to do this? I am going to have to be doing more studying on this community college thing as my dd is only 2.5 years away from being 14. I didn't realize people started that early, I was thinking more like 16, and even then I'm not exactly sure what the benefits are. I know you can get a 2-year degree before 18 and that seems like a huge benefit, but do you have to technically complete high school courses before they will let you take community college courses?

 

 

The first convention I went to (1983) had a workshop on getting children through high school. Older dd was just 8 but you can never think about these things too soon, lol. Anyway, the workshop presenter pointed out that the lower division classes at a 4-yr college are a repeat of high school (more or less), and you can do those at a c.c., so why not just do them once? So we did.

 

In California, c.c. applicants are not required to have a high school diploma. They're not required to have ACT/SAT scores. Some have placement tests for English and math; some require all students to take them, some require it only if the students plan to take a certain number of credits. Also, c.c. transfer students are guaranteed to be admitted to UC/CalState schools. This varies widely from state to state, though; it might be completely different in yours.

[Nan in Mass]

Ellie -

 

Did they start out with a full load of classes? Or did you ramp up slowly? Did they matriculate at the beginning or later?

 

Everyone else -

 

There are people on the high school board who have their children start out taking community classes by having them take the school's how-to-go-to-college class. It covers scheduling projects, study skills, note taking, and other things like that. It might also brush up on reading skills. It might have a name like College Success or something like that.

 

Nan

[lewelma]

And see, I'm lost right there. I don't believe there's such a thing as "high-quality" unschooling. Or "low-quality" unschooling. There is unschooling. "Quality" doesn't enter into it.

 

Ellie, I really respect you and certainly don't want to get into an argument, but I completely disagree with this statement.

 

I ran and attended our local unschoolers group for 5 years. We met weekly so I have seen and talked to a LOT of unschoolers. My experience tells me that not all unschoolers are created equal. As I see it, unless you equate unschooling to not-schooling, then the parent has a two fold responsibility to unschool well. 1) She must facilitate her child's interests by providing materials, time, and enthusiasm. And 2) she must provide opportunities to experience life if she expects her children to learn through life. Not all parents do these 2 things. I have definitely met non-schoolers who claim to be unschoolers.

 

When done well, unschooling is a very effective approach through middle school. You can do it in high school too, but as I see it, you would need to run your own business to have the full range of opportunities required for a high school education.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Ellie]

Ellie, I really respect you and certainly don't want to get into an argument, but I completely disagree with this statement.

 

I ran and attended our local unschoolers group for 5 years. We met weekly so I have seen and talked to a LOT of unschoolers. My experience tells me that not all unschoolers are created equal. As I see it, unless you equate unschooling to not-schooling, then the parent has a two fold responsibility to unschool well. 1) She must facilitate her child's interests by providing materials, time, and enthusiasm. And 2) she must provide opportunities to experience life if she expects her children to learn through life. Not all parents do these 2 things. I have definitely met non-schoolers who claim to be unschoolers.

 

When done well, unschooling is a very effective approach through middle school. You can do it in high school too, but as I see it, you would need to run your own business to have the full range of opportunities required for a high school education.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

I just object to calling it "high quality."

 

Of course not all unschoolers are created equal. Neither are just-like-schoolers.

 

There's so much more to unschooling than facilitating children's interests and providing opportunities to experience life. It is a mindset. It is ok if you don't get it. Really.

[lewelma]

I just object to calling it "high quality."

I can agree with this.

 

There's so much more to unschooling than facilitating children's interests and providing opportunities to experience life. It is a mindset. It is ok if you don't get it. Really.

I was actually an unschooler for years. I left my career as a school teacher and got into homeschooling because of Holt's books. I do get it. I just don't like the term bandied about by people who use it as an excuse to not educate their children.

 

 

 

And to the Original Poster, there is a middle ground between unschooling and traditional schooling approaches. Here is an example for science: the full discussion is on this thread http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/435374-ruth-more-questions/

 

x-post

My plan for you dd is to allow this year to be interest led within some structure. She needs passion. She has time for textbooks later. She also needs breadth.

 

Set up a notebook for her with 4 tabs: Biology, Earth/Space Science, Chemistry, and Physics. On each page, write in these categories with 10 lines (or more) between each --

Biology: botany, cell biology, DNA, genetics, rainforests, deserts, arctic, etc.

Earth/Space Science: geology, crystals, ground water, volcanoes, earthquakes, weather, planets, sun, galaxy.

Chemistry: periodic table, chemical reactions, industrial uses, precious metals, plastics.

Physics: mechanics, inventions, light, electricity, flight, magnetism

 

Allow her to choose *any* books from the library that she finds interesting. Talk to her about trying to get a broad overview and have books in each topic. Encourage variety. Over the year, try to find one book within each subtopic. Your libraries may not have some topics or you may need to go to the adult section and look at some coffee table books. In plan A, she can read books in any order – ground water, then electricity, then plastics, whatever. Her goal is breadth by the end of the year. She will also write in any documentaries, websites, and youtube videos in the proper categories. Given her curious nature, I think she would enjoy seeing every category filled by the end of the year. I'm guessing it would be motivating, and she would get frustrated (in a good way), when she couldn't find a book to read in one of the categories.

[momma2three]

I really like that idea, lewelma.