How should I handle this situation... (kids fight)

[luv2read]

We have 3 dc. The youngest is 7 and oldest just turned 16. The two of them verbally bicker back and forth. I send them to their rooms, give them chores, send one outside etc. Dh and I try to nip it in the bud the minute it starts. They have never physically hurt each other. Can you imagine that much age difference and not getting along.

 

The 7 is a ds and the 16 is a dd.

 

About an hour ago, I was in the kitchen and heard a loud scream. Dd was pulling ds across the carpet to his room. That was like 10 feet. She said he was laughing at first. NOt for sure what happened next but my guess was he told her to stop. He said he did but she said he didn't.

 

So, he got mad and picked up a big wooden block (support beam) from his brio train set and threw it at her. It hit her on the forehead just right and turned in to a bump the size of 1/2 a golf ball. I mean it looks really, really bad.

She has ice on it.

 

I spanked him which honestly was a gut reaction that I did not even think about. I had him go outside and now he is taking a nap.

 

How would you handle this? I'm trying to figure out do I take the train set out of his room ? What do I do? Nothing like this has ever happened and I'm at a loss.

 

Thank you guys,

Sara

[Remudamom]

Since this is the first time I wouldn't do much, esp. since you already spanked him. I'd let him know that it was unacceptable to hit/throw something at his sister no matter what, and I'd let her know that she should have stopped at once when she could see he wasn't having fun. She is 16, after all.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Whether you think spanking is a good discipline technique in this situation or not (and I think it was) - you have disciplined him. Then you redirected him (another good technique). And now he is fine and is napping. End of story I think for him.

 

Why was your dd pulling him to his room? Was she trying to put him in time-out? Were they just fooling around? If she was out-of-line, she should be disciplined too.

[Colleen]

As far as the short term solution goes, I'd explain to your son that since he chose to use his train set inappropriately, he gave up the right to use it for (whatever time you deem appropriate ~ a week or so). He needs to pack it up, put it away, and not use it for that time period. That's a logical consequence (whereas spanking him was not, but as you said, you did that without much forethought).

 

Beyond that, though, you have the issue of the bickering going on between these two, and your daughter in particularly should be held to a higher standard. Yes, fighting is a two-way street, but at her age, she should be able to handle herself with more maturity and not succumb to the verbal back and forth. So I'd certainly talk with your about that ~ emphasizing the fact that she's nearing adulthood and if she wants to be treated as a more mature person, she needs to not engage on the level of a seven year old.

 

In your assessment, what most commonly leads to their bickering? What tools can you offer them such that they don't keep replaying this old tune? Those are the things I'd think through if I were you. Good luck!:)

[Pamela H in Texas]

Well, hitting for hitting isn't the best discipline on earth but you did what you did. He would have gotten a lot more out of being of help in aiding his sister, finding ways to be extra nice to her, etc. Yes, he would lose the train set for a time (typically, I do until they ask for it back as long as they can explain what the original problem was and what they'd do instead next time). BTW, I don't believe in piling on punishments, but I don't believe in punishment instead of good discipline either. I'd still do the good stuff.

 

And there does seem to be an issue with why she was dragging him at all. If they are volatile in general, she definitely should never be man-handling him. And if they are playing, STOP MEANS STOP PERIOD.

 

Both of them need to find nice things to do for/with/to each other DAILY.

 

BTW, I also think you're probably setting yourself up for MORE trouble by stepping in every time. They don't ever have to learn proper socialization because mommy steps in EVERY time. Give them the skills and tools and let them use them. You discipline by teaching and guiding and then if something goes way wrong like today.

 

HTHs a little,

[Adrianne]

I agree with what these fine ladies have said and I also wanted to add that it seems you need to work on their hearts to change their relationship.

 

Something like......People who love each other like in our family, do not treat each other this way. Your 7yo might struggle with this but the 16yo should get it. They both definitely need to be respectful of each other.

 

I think getting them to help each other is good and not stepping in every time they fight (unless it is too loud or there is blood) is also good. A seasoned mom once told me she make her sons go outside until they resolved their fight. (may be not good for a 7yo but you get the picture).

 

Do they have anything in common? Is there a joint activity they can do that will help them to see each other in a different light? This might help change their hearts.

 

This is difficult for a 7yo boy though. They are very inclined to react irrationally and lash out verbally. The 16 yo should learn to control herself. I would start working on her.

 

Good luck, I know how hard this is. Some days my 2 boys bicker endlessly. (my irrational 5yo usually ends up crying and hitting). Other days they are the best of friend. *sigh* kids!

[Mandy in TN]

It hit her on the forehead just right and turned in to a bump the size of 1/2 a golf ball. I mean it looks really, really bad.

 

ROFLOL

I bet she won't drag him again! When kids get that ridiculous, you gotta laugh.

 

When my little guy(5yo) lashes out irrationally I make him say he is sorry and hug and kiss his sibling (14yo, 17yo).

 

I can't help you much with hormonal, over-the-top teens. Make sure she gets enough sleep and takes vitamins. Often teens simply lack the maturity to know when to stop. Things can start out as fun and teens just lack the experience to be able to see that hey this is one of those things that starts out as fun and ends in tears. Sometimes teens need time alone in their teen cave and little people don't understand personal space.

 

My older boys are my little guy's world and they love their little guy dearly, but sometimes they really don't want to be in the same room.

 

The only advice I have is to try to make sure that the day begins and ends with hugs.

Mandy

[Pamela H in Texas]

Along with getting their relationship/hearts on track...

 

As I said, I really believe in "blessing" one another. You can easily help the 7yo. The 16yo should be able to take to it easily enough. One big idea would be to see if they can do it "secretly" sometimes. A secret gift on a pillow, a chore done before they wake up, a thoughtful treat while at the grocery store, whatever.

 

However, another thought may be to come up with a cue with dd that means:

 

1) if she does it, "Okay, I love the kid."

2) if you do it, "see, he's pretty-good-okay afterall, huh?"

 

Then they can recognize how much the LIKE each other MOST of the time. Sometimes the bickering and junk overshadow the prevalence of much more positive feelings.

 

Another option would be to have them tallymark extreme irritation/annoyance with one another. I'm sure they wouldn't have that much. I mean, each tallymark marks 2-20 minutes of pain, right? And they get 1-3 per day? That is less than an hour in 24 hours! But I wouldn't tell them that part at first. Let them do it for a week or two and then help them see the lesson.

 

Maybe you could remember to tallymark all the giggling they do within that time period or something like that as contrast.

 

Hope some of this is helpful,

[pqr]

That's a logical consequence (whereas spanking him was not, but as you said, you did that without much forethought).

 

I disagree. Spanking is a perfectly logical response to an act of violence or disobedience. Children, or at least my children, know that if they engage in agressive and violent activity then it is only logical thay they should expect a reaction that would be defined, by some, as being violent. Not only is this a lesson for the house, but it also prepares a child for the outside world.

 

Scenario: Boy A throws something at Girl A (not his sibling). Girl A is hurt. Boyfriend A thumps Boy A.

 

This is reality and by spanking your child you prepared him for this reality.

 

luv2read. Your actions were totally appropriate and in the long run you will be thanked for them.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Scenario: Boy A throws something at Girl A (not his sibling). Girl A is hurt. Boyfriend A thumps Boy A.

 

This is most certainly something I'd not want my kids to learn. Sounds like a bar brawl. I expect my kids to be a bit more mature and responsible not only as adults but on their way to adulthood. Seriously, undisciplined toddlers hit people. Anyone else can communicate and handle ANY situation better if they choose to.

 

I'm sure that you can think of better ways for Girl A and Boyfriend A to handle the above situation. Now if only people would teach their kids those things. It's not just Boy A's parents that have some work to do!

[pqr]

Pamela,

 

I may teach my children to behave in a more mature way, but for good or bad we all live in the real world where not everybody raises their children to be young ladies and gentlemen. This is one of the challenges of homeschooling in that by protecting our children from some of the negative influences in society we can, if we are not careful, make them vulnerable when they do finally face those influences.

 

The scenario I gave may not be pleasant but is, alas, reality. Through discipline I ensure that my child will never be Boy A, but I trust that he would behave as Boyfriend A does.

 

My children are tought to avoid violence when possible, but when necessary I have also given them the capability to throw a nice one-two combination.

[Pamela H in Texas]

A typo was in my response at first. It was still clear from my post what I MEANT. Obviously we disagree. I personally have been teaching my Girl A and Boyfriend A better. I wish all parents would but I won't convince everyone. Some people like brutish behavior. I still believe that anyone over age 2 can learn to communicate effectively without hitting, even when faced with immature/irresponsible ones that choose not to.

[Snickerdoodle]

Sara, did you also punish your daughter? I'm curious to know what happened with her. WHile your son did lash out, it sounds like there was some bullying behavior on her part, i.e. not stopping when asked.

[pqr]

Pamela,

 

We must respectfully disagree, but were it possible to...

 

communicate effectively without hitting, even when faced with immature/irresponsible ones that choose not to.

 

our prisons would be empty, we would have no need for a military and democracy would be the only system of government.

 

As this is not so I must believe that there are times when we can not effectively communicate without violence. It is a last resort, but I employ it whan I spank my children, we learn about it when we study history, and I prepare my children to enter a world where they may be required to use it.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I have held my beliefs a very long time.

 

I was in middle school when an acquaintance decided to start junk with me. She claimed I had said something that no one in their right mind would have believed I would say. She didn't care. She got a GROUP of people to bring me to her, made her claim to my face, I denied it. She said she was going to fight me. I said I would not fight. She hit me. And she hit me. And she hit me.

 

Now, could I have fought back rightfully enough? Possibly. The fight was short lived. The girl never had another friend. I had a following. *I* was right for not resorting to violence even when faced with violence.

 

Fact is? My single mother could have lost her home had I fought back. Someone could have gotten SERIOUSLY injured had both parties participated. The law could have seen both of us at fault. Had it been at school, we both would have been disciplined for it.

 

Instead, a smart 12yo knew that fighting wasn't the answer. A smart 12yo, growing up largely on the streets, figured out BETTER rules.

 

My son, at 8yrs old, punched his buddy in the nose when his friend wouldn't let go of the front of his shirt in a threatening manner. My son was disciplined. The reason? Because my son needed to handle situations like that better. There were things he could have done to prevent the issue in the first place and things he could have done besides socking his friend. He has never hit another person. He always made better choices before things got out of hand (we didn't keep him and this friend apart though they were somewhat volatile as a mix). He learned BETTER. Fact is no one is gonna care about his diagnoses and how much harder it is for him or even how "noble" some people think it is in some circumstances. Fact is, violence is wrong.

 

In the real world, real people make BETTER choices. 12yo girls, 8yo boys can do it. So can young men and women like in your scenario. And so can every parent of a young child. It is a CHOICE. It's ALWAYS a choice.

[Pamela H in Texas]

our prisons would be empty, we would have no need for a military and democracy would be the only system of government.

 

I don't believe any of the above, thankfully. There would still be prison's for Boy A types, just that Girl A and Boyfriend A wouldn't end up there also. And I'm not going to touch the other two with a ten-foot-pole.

[Pamela H in Texas]

BTW (last post directly related to this, I promise), I appreciate that we respectfully part company on this issue. We both have our experiences and belief systems that play into it. The great thing is that within certain parameters, we both can parent (and behave otherwise in society) as we deem best based on the knowledge we have at the time. No doubt you continuously strive to be the best parent you can be. I've done the same. May we both continue to do so.

 

I do appreciate a decent debate though :) Anyway, if you answer all these posts, you'll no longer be "just visiting!" Welcome to the board :)

[pqr]

I have held my beliefs a very long time.

 

My son, at 8yrs old, punched his buddy in the nose when his friend wouldn't let go of the front of his shirt in a threatening manner. My son was disciplined.

 

Your son was disciplined for defending himself.........Wow.

 

The problem is that your belief system leads to more violence not less. The type of boy who threatened your son has also learned a lesson. He may now believe that other boys will behave as you tell your son to and will continue his behavior. My son will now have to fight because yours will not.

 

By the way just how do we get Boy A into prison without the threat of violence? He will not go simply because he is asked.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Your son was disciplined for defending himself.

 

LOL. All children NEED discipline (teaching and guidance). He made a poor choice getting into the situation and not getting out of it differently. We worked through that as well as handled the situation with the neighbors.

 

Had he been one of the two young adults in your scenario, in school or a bar brawl or whatever, he would have been PUNISHED instead. I'd prefered to teach my son thinking and problem solving skills as a little tyke so he could practice them throughout life so he didn't have to suffer punishment for poor choices as a teen or adult.

 

BTW, I believe the neighbor boy also learned from our discipline. The good thing about good discipline (teaching, guidance, helping, problem solving, thinking) is that it has a ripple effect to the positive. Two kids using good skills and tools is only a good thing. I have no lofty ideas that the 2 years changed his whole life, but it certainly didn't hurt matters any.

[Ashleen]

Sara, did you also punish your daughter? I'm curious to know what happened with her. WHile your son did lash out, it sounds like there was some bullying behavior on her part, i.e. not stopping when asked.

 

:iagree: I was pretty surprised that it was the son who got disciplined and not the daughter. If you grab another person and start dragging them, don't be surprised if they throw something at you. She could have hurt him. She should have known better. And she's way too old to be picking on a little kid.

[luv2read]

The moment this happened to tell you the truth, dds head looked so bad I called my dh because I thought I was going to take her to the urgent care. I have never seen anything swell so fast and so big. We put ice on it for a few hours and it helped.

************

 

When ds got up from his nap, he had a big rug burn on his back from the carpet. His shirt had slid up when she was dragging him. That's when I talked to dd about her inappropriate behavior etc. I think they were horsing around and ds probably said stop and she kept going. When dh got home, he talked to them as well.

 

Thank you to all of you.

 

Sara

[cin]

Honestly, I think your kids are somewhat normal. my two love each other, hug, play together, the older one reads to the younger at bedtime, they sometimes sleep together in the same TWIN bed. But they have their moments. Just like us adults.

 

The difference between siblings and married couples is basically maturity. We (for the most part) have learned how to deal with anger, disappointment, and frustration. They are still learning. Therefore, we just leave the room and maybe give the silent treatment to our partner for a while, or go scrub the cabinets. They, on the other hand, yell adn scream and hit. (Okay, I do still, on occasion, yell and scream, but I have NEVER hit anyone in anger).

 

I have a friend who is very close to his brother. As children the one actually broke the chair to their desk over top of the other. Boys. Testosterone. Anger. Inexperience.

 

Yes, they do need our instruction, training and guidance. But I do not think that the average case of sibling rivalry will land the kids in jail.

 

My 2 often start out having fun and then someone decides they don't like it, and someone starts screaming, someone starts sulking and they are in separate corners.

 

I am working to teach my children to LISTEN & RESPECT what the other says. But I also know that at this age, life still revolves around self. Heck, at my age there are days when Life revolves around Self (and you better NOT touch that chocolate!)

 

So, I think that to a degree, your kids are normal. And that is a HUGE age difference to expect them to be chummy. But they do need to learn to honor and respect each other. And to not throw toys. And as a mom to one who is a bull-headed as they come, Mine would be spanked for that offense also :D.

 

As an added note, my Pediatrician once told me if I see the swelling & bruising, that's good, that means the swelling & bruising is NOT on the inside.

 

Hugs and Chocolate,

[Mandy in TN]

Honestly, I think your kids are somewhat normal. my two love each other, hug, play together, the older one reads to the younger at bedtime, they sometimes sleep together in the same TWIN bed. But they have their moments. Just like us adults.

 

The difference between siblings and married couples is basically maturity. We (for the most part) have learned how to deal with anger, disappointment, and frustration. They are still learning. Therefore, we just leave the room and maybe give the silent treatment to our partner for a while, or go scrub the cabinets. They, on the other hand, yell adn scream and hit.

 

:iagree: As a parent who actually has a wide age gap between kids and as a person who had much older step-siblings, I agree.

 

Again- start and end the day with hugs. If you try to micro-manage their relationship, they will never develop one of their own. And don't fret too much: they really, honestly do sound within the realm of normal.

 

Mandy

[Colleen]

Spanking is a perfectly logical response to an act of violence or disobedience. Children, or at least my children, know that if they engage in agressive and violent activity then it is only logical thay they should expect a reaction that would be defined, by some, as being violent. Not only is this a lesson for the house, but it also prepares a child for the outside world.

 

No, thank you, I choose not to engage in physical discipline as a means to "teach" my children how to accept a potentially violent world. What a depressing approach.

[pqr]

Colleen,

 

Choice and logic are can be two different things. We can even "choose' to be illogical.

 

It has always struck me as interesting that since the rise of the movement to do away with corporal punishment in schools and at home we, as a nation, have seen a virtual explosion in violent behavior by the young.

 

I can only go from my personal experience, but I am eternally grateful that my parents did not "spare the rod," had they done so I suspect that I would have engaged in the same truancy that many of my schoolmates did. Most of my schoolmates were good kids, just undisciplined and despite the talks they received from their parents and despite the time outs, and despite the "I am dissapointed in you" lines (all of which I also received), the only thing they feared was corporal punishment.

 

In a loving family the adminstration of corporal punishment does not harm a child. I firmly believe that the failure to administer it, when deserved, does.

 

I fail to see the logic in removing a tried and tested means of discipline from a parent's arsenal.

[Pamela H in Texas]

You do realize that the great majority of parents still spank, right? Even those that don't believe in it, like it, would prefer to do better, still spank occasionally.

 

There is a lot more discussion of other methods, many ineffective, I'll grant you; but in the meantime, the average child gets spanked at least several times and often more often than previous generations did. And most kids are punished more often. The two big issues, in reality, are that parents are failing to 1) DISCIPLINE appropriately though punishing plenty and 2) follow through on consequences (be they logical or punitive).

 

Really, I gave up on trying to get people to quit hitting their kids. Instead, I try to encourage them to learn better discipline so it (and other punishment) just doesn't come up very often. If a parent is punishing even semi-regularly, then they aren't disciplining well enough for that kiddo. And truely challenging kiddos need BETTER discipline, not more or harsher punishment.

[Colleen]

Choice and logic are can be two different things. We can even "choose' to be illogical.

 

Yes, and choosing to hit a child as a means of teaching him the school of hard knocks (as you previously explained) is, in my opinion, illogical.

 

In a loving family the adminstration of corporal punishment does not harm a child. I firmly believe that the failure to administer it, when deserved, does. I fail to see the logic in removing a tried and tested means of discipline from a parent's arsenal.

 

You've made some inaccurate assumptions here. I've not said one word about "removing" spanking as a means of discipline. The spanking administered in this particular instance wasn't a logical consequence. There is no question about that in my mind, so we must agree to disagree.

[sunshine]

Everything and I do mean everything said was appropriate. Some spank, some don't. No matter which way you must do it properly. Kids respond to consistent instruction. They have to know what is allowed and what is not. Ihave a 17 yr old, 8 yr old and a 5 yr old plus a 3 yr old 3 days a week when SIL works. My 17 yr old bickers and shows the most irritability with the 8 yr old. She upsurped him when she was born. Sibling rivalry has no age limits, they don't have to be 18 mon apart. Actually the broader the age it seems the deeper the resentment. Have kids girls!!

But you have to bind their hearts together and you have to do it now before your teen is gone. It is not a question of whether they like the same things, make them do things together. She should help some of his school, he should help some of her chores, then they should have to read a book together, cook something together. She should be responsible in helping him with his chores, to teach him the proper way, he should be allowed to participate with her and her friends. That ought to spark a reaction from some but it is true, younger siblings should be with older ones in social situations. It serves several purposes, the younger feels privileged, the older has to be responsible and will curtail somethings she might do if she were not being watched. She should always be in trouble if she is rough with him or mean. After a few weeks you will see their hearts starting to mesh. I promise. My kids are best friends. They are not allowed to be anything else. I am the parent after all.