Saxon Math question

[JennyCook]

I've been correcting my kids math assignments everday but not giving them a percentage. I just mark the wrong ones then we go over the wrong ones together. When we do the tests I do grade them and give them a percentage. Recently, I started actually giving them a grade (percentage) for their assignemts. My question is, at what percentage should I feel like they have mastered the lesson? They are getting lower percentages than they'd like. We've only been homeschooling for a few months but at PS they were both close to the top of the class in math. DD1's last few days of scores are 88%, 76%, 85%, 86%. DD2's scores were 79%, 88%, 80%, 78%. They feel like they are terrible at math now and that is used to be their best subject. Even when they do the tests if they miss just 2 or three it puts them below 90% which they hate. It seems pretty rare that they get 90%+. Is this normal? Are they in books that are too hard? We took the placement tests and they both tested into their correct book for their grade level.

 

I've been adding the warm up box questions, lesson practice questions and mixed practice questions together to figure the percentage for each lesson. A lot of the questions they miss are simple little mistakes from not being careful. I'm not worried about them not knowing the concepts but they really do need to be more careful. Sometimes they won't give exactly the right answer that the question is asking for but I look over their work and I can see that they understand how to do it mathematically. Does that make sense? How do I get them to be more careful?

 

At what point do I back them up? What percentage do you other Saxon math users consider good enough? What percentage should we be aiming for? Is there a better way for me to grade them?

 

Thanks in advance!

[Ellie]

Were they doing Saxon in school? Because if not, you could be seeing the adjustment between the different publishers/methods.

 

Which levels are the doing?

 

As long as they are above 70%, they're doing fine. Really.

 

I don't know if there's anything official on this, but *I* wouldn't include the warm-up box questions or the lesson practice questions as part of their grade, only the 25 or 30 problems in the actual lesson (I'm basing this on my past knowledge of Saxon, lol--it could be different now!).

 

If they seemed to understand what they were doing but got the wrong answer, then they either didn't actually understand or their arithmetic was wrong. You can't make them be more careful; it is up to them. If they don't like their low percentages, well, they can improve by being more careful, yes?

[LinRTX]

If they were not doing Saxon in school, then you are probably seeing an adjustment to the new curriculum.

 

How old are your children? In my house I don't grade until 7-8th grade; we just work to mastery until then. I do give the Saxon tests, but that is just to be certain they are retaining (and it is an easier day because there are less problems).

 

Linda ( a long time Saxon user)

[Hunter]

I have found that mistakes come most from not having basic math facts down cold. I've been doing a lot of talk about math with a retired professor that taught math and sciences at a junior college. She tutors the same group of students that I do. We disagree about many things, but not the importance of mastery of math facts.

 

Memorized math facts are not only quicker, but more accurate, than math that is figured out on the spot. Both of us are now drilling math facts, basic squares and cubes, ect, that we didn't in the past, even with the more advanced students, and it's paying off.

 

I am also stressing math handwriting. She hasn't come around to my superior methods yet. :lol: Just joking!!!!!!

 

I'm pulling all students back to accuracy with basic facts and handwriting, and refusing to move them along until they can be accurate and fast and make it look nice. Looking nice isn't really the goal, it's just that papers that DO look nice are more accurate, so...

 

I used Saxon Algebra 1, 2 and Calculus with my younger son, and looking back and knowing what I now know, his accuracy and speed were held back by nothing more than bad handwriting and a lack of drill of basic math.

[Hunter]

I've never used the tests. It caused too much stress trying to plan them for a Friday, knowing that the grade would be lower on a Monday, if we got behind.

 

I agree with Ellie just to grade the problem sets and not the new lesson material.

[Meriwether]

If they were not doing Saxon in school, then you are probably seeing an adjustment to the new curriculum.

 

How old are your children? In my house I don't grade until 7-8th grade; we just work to mastery until then. I do give the Saxon tests, but that is just to be certain they are retaining (and it is an easier day because there are less problems).

 

Linda ( a long time Saxon user)

 

My lucky kids dislike test days because they get to do the test in addition to the lesson. :leaving:

 

 

OP, My Dd9 makes many silly mistakes. She works very quickly. We have worked and worked on slowing down. She is getting better. She usually remembers to put her decimal in division problems now. She makes her 0's look like 0's instead of 6's. She copies the problems down correctly. I don't have any advice. My coping skills were limited to saying, "You have to be more careful." over and over again.

[JudoMom]

I only grade tests, and according to Art Reed, 80% and above is okay for Saxon.

[JennyCook]

They weren't doing Saxon in school. My 5th grader is in the 6/5 book and my 4th grader is in the 5/4 book.

 

I guess you're right about not being able to MAKE them be more careful...LOL, maybe I can entice them...bribery? ;)

 

Thanks for your thoughts on how to grade. I'd love to hear other thoughts as well. I think that 80% number was what i was looking for. Is there a number you can call to ask questions about saxon math like there are for other programs? Were did you get that number (80%) and who is Art Reed?

 

Edited because I posted my response before reading all previous posts. :)

[JennyCook]

As far as getting the math facts down, I started out doing the drill worksheets that come with Saxon but then I switched to having them do xtramath.com everyday. Should I have them do the Saxon drills AND xtramath? The reason I'm not doing both now is because math takes us longer to do than any other subject and I didn't want to make it even longer. But I could probably add it back now. We are getting better and faster. Part of the problem was the HUGE adjustment that it is to go from PS to homeschool.

[mschickie]

I never grade the actually assignments. I correct them daily and have dd go back and do the corrections. Normally she can find the mistake (sometimes arithmetic or she read the problem wrong) but when she can't we work through it together. I feel like grading the assignments would put too much pressure on her and would impede the learning process. As long as she does well on the test I am fine, that shows she understands the material which is my only goal.

[Ellie]

They weren't doing Saxon in school. My 5th grader is in the 6/5 book and my 4th grader is in the 5/4 book.

 

I guess you're right about not being able to MAKE them be more careful...LOL, maybe I can entice them...bribery? ;)

 

Thanks for your thoughts on how to grade. I'd love to hear other thoughts as well. I think that 80% number was what i was looking for. Is there a number you can call to ask questions about saxon math like there are for other programs? Were did you get that number (80%) and who is Art Reed?

 

Edited because I posted my response before reading all previous posts. :)

 

 

Ok, then, since this is their first year with Saxon, yes, there will be adjustments. It will be fine. :-)

 

No bribery, lol. The enticement is better scores, yes? :-)

 

Art Reed is an experienced math teacher and Saxon user. He's published some peripheral Saxon materials--I don't know what all, because he is a relative newcomer. I believe Saxon says 80% (my 70% was probably low); Mr. Reed is just repeating what the publisher has said. :-)

[KarenNC]

Art Reed www.homeschoolwithsaxon.com ---very, very helpful! When I emailed him with a question, he emailed right back asking for my phone number so that he could call me without a long distance bill. We spoke for 20 minutes and it was very useful to me. This was all without having ever bought a single product of his at the time! His contact information is on the website.

 

We did xtramath.org instead of the practice sheets and it was much easier. We also didn't do the mental math/warmups in the boxed section as those are designed to help classroom teachers get their kids settled down for a lesson. We go over the lesson together and she does her problem set as homework (started this for 7th grade). This year we started using Art Reed's teaching dvds ($49 per level) along with the books because we have an issue with adolescent pushback particularly in math :banghead: .

 

80% or better is what you're looking for on the tests. Here's what we do (6/5, 7/6, and Alg 1/2 so far):

 

Homework: we check homework daily, but don't grade. All incorrect answers are given back to the child for another try. If the answer is still wrong, we walk through the problem together. By wrong, I mean in any way----missing or incorrect units, not simplified, illegible, wrong sign, etc. We've had the same ongoing issue with carelessness and this zero tolerance policy has done more than anything else to make a difference. It hasn't gone away (she still frequently has to redo 1/3 to 1/2 of the homework problems daily) but she's doing well overall.

 

Tests: answers are graded as either totally right or totally wrong, 5 points per problem. No partial credit at all. As Art Reed put it on one of his dvd lessons (and I'm paraphrasing), "If you build a bridge and make a few calculation errors, how much partial credit do you get when only half the bridge falls down?" We go over all incorrect answers the same way as homework. Her grade is based on her initial answers, not the corrected ones. If she makes less than an 80 and it's not a very obvious minor or careless error, we go back to the referenced section of the book and do some additional practice. Then she takes the B form of the test and I average the two grades together. So far, we've not had a B test that was less than 80%.

[Ellie]

As far as getting the math facts down, I started out doing the drill worksheets that come with Saxon but then I switched to having them do xtramath.com everyday. Should I have them do the Saxon drills AND xtramath? The reason I'm not doing both now is because math takes us longer to do than any other subject and I didn't want to make it even longer. But I could probably add it back now. We are getting better and faster. Part of the problem was the HUGE adjustment that it is to go from PS to homeschool.

 

 

 

Just do one drill. I'd go with the Saxon drill and drop the other. And you don't have to do the drill at the same time as the lesson; just know which one the lesson says to do.

 

Don't let the children work more than, oh, 30 minutes on their math (not counting any time that you work with them). What they don't finish today, they can finish tomorrow. Yes, it might take longer to complete a text, but it's ok. Notice how there are two numbers as part of the title: 54, 65, 76, 87. That means each one can be *either* one grade or the other. It makes no difference which one is used. John Saxon didn't want to put grade levels of any kind on the books, but the editors insisted; he just wanted the children to learn math.

[happypamama]

My fifth grader is finishing up Saxon 7/6, and there has been very little new material for her. She tends to make lots of careless mistakes, however -- adds wrong (and it's not that she doesn't know her math facts; it's that she's not always paying full attention), only does half the problem, substitutes radius instead of diameter. . . I mark which ones are incorrect on the problem sets, but I don't give them a grade; I just have her go back and redo them. Most of the time, she goes, "Oh, I did something silly" and immediately knows what she did wrong; once in a grand while, it's something she forgot how to do or didn't understand all the way.

 

Our deal on the tests is that if she gets 90% or better (and again, she only occasionally has one wrong because she really didn't know how to do it; it's almost always a careless mistake), on the next five practice sets, she only has to do 15 problems instead of all 30. If she doesn't get 90%, she has to do all 30 on the next five practice sets. She doesn't enjoy having to do so many problems, so this has given her incentive to pay close attention and to go over her work again to make sure she didn't make careless errors. I do have her redo all incorrect or skipped problems, with my help if necessary. The lowest she's gotten on a test has been 75%, so I don't feel that putting her back a level would help at all.

[JennyCook]

Oh thank you thank you!! This gives me lots to think about. I like the zero tolerance Idea for the simple mistakes. So, when you hand back the corrected paper do you tell them what they did wrong? (Simplify, don't forget the decimal, etc) or do you make them figure it out?

 

I think I'm going to make them figure it out and just mark it wrong so it sinks in better.

 

Just curious but do you guys ever do pre-tests and let them skip lessons?

 

My test booklet doesn't have A and B tests. KarenNC where do you get the B test?

[happypamama]

Oh thank you thank you!! This gives me lots to think about. I like the zero tolerance Idea for the simple mistakes. So, when you hand back the corrected paper do you tell them what they did wrong? (Simplify, don't forget the decimal, etc) or do you make them figure it out?

 

I think I'm going to make them figure it out and just mark it wrong so it sinks in better.

 

Just curious but do you guys ever do pre-tests and let them skip lessons?

 

My test booklet doesn't have A and B tests. KarenNC where do you get the B test?

 

 

I have her do all lessons, just so that we make sure there are no holes, nothing skipped.

 

I just mark what is wrong and hand it back to her; she lets me know if she doesn't know why it is wrong or otherwise needs help, and in that case, I help her. But 90 percent of the time, she figures it out herself. I also encourage her to look back at the lesson for a problem if she is stuck, because often, that helps her figure out th e problems herself.

[KarenNC]

I have her do all lessons, just so that we make sure there are no holes, nothing skipped.

 

I just mark what is wrong and hand it back to her; she lets me know if she doesn't know why it is wrong or otherwise needs help, and in that case, I help her. But 90 percent of the time, she figures it out herself. I also encourage her to look back at the lesson for a problem if she is stuck, because often, that helps her figure out the problems herself.

 

I do much the same. IIRC, when I first started the practice, I did give a hint to ease her into the new way of doing things, but I don't do that now. The only time we ever skipped lessons in Saxon was when we were testing through 6/5 to find our appropriate starting point. The benefit of Saxon is in the constant review, which requires doing all the problems and all the lessons and finishing the entire book before going on to the next level. Frequently, a concept is introduced in a lesson but it is in the following problem sets over many later lessons that the concept is refined and approached from different ways, so there is actually a form of new teaching going on in the problem sets themselves, not just the lessons. That's the main reason I see given for not skipping any of the problems.

 

There's a separate booklet called test masters or test forms. It has the tests and answers in it. I believe 7/6 had one, I know Alg 1/2 does, but I can't remember now if 7/6 had A and B forms or not. I do remember that it had the fact practice tests in it in 7/6 (they disappear at the Alg 1/2 level). Here's a link http://www.christian...t=1016DPL This is for the 4th edition and I had the 3rd edition, so I don't know if there are changes. Maybe someone who currently has the books can be more specific. I sold mine when we were finished.

 

Altogether for Alg 1/2 (3rd edition) I have the student book, test masters, homeschool packet, and solutions manual. The solutions manual has all the problem set answers worked out but not the answers to the practice questions. The homeschool packet gives the practice answers and answers to the problem sets, but not worked out. The tests masters book has the test forms and worked out solutions. This is the first year I went for the solutions manual simply for sake of saving time and I very much like it.

[daybreaking]

Art Reed is a Saxon expert who spent many years teaching Saxon. He strongly recommends you don't grade the daily homework. If you e-mail him with your question, he will personally call you back and give you advice on your situation. He has a website (http://www.homeschoolwithsaxon.com/) that has a newsletter with a lot of good informaion for using Saxon successfully. HTH

[Hunter]

Art Reed is ONE "expert", but there are others with differing approaches. Art Reed is also a seller, and that gives him an agenda. Be discriminating with his advice. Take some. Leave some.

 

In general I expected a student to try and correct their problem on their own, before offering assistance.

 

I never, never, never skipped problems in Saxon.

 

I now drill math facts until they know the math facts. Period. If that means cutting back on textbook work, or abandoning it altogether for awhile, then so be it. I use what works. Copywork, online drill, flashcards, recitations, worksheets, strategies.

 

I am not afraid to have students working in books that are "below grade level". I've have seen great results from struggling students that were placed very low in Saxon. They moved slowly, but steadily through the series. They made progress, where they were not making progress before. Their standardized text scores rose despite working in a book with a lower number than the previous one from another publisher.

 

I used to be in a such a rush, rush, rush with math. Since so far all my students have started at a junior college, there is no rush. I like the new Simply Charlotte Mason pdf on taking a chill pill about math.

[KarenNC]

Art Reed is a Saxon expert who spent many years teaching Saxon. He strongly recommends you don't grade the daily homework. If you e-mail him with your question, he will personally call you back and give you advice on your situation. He has a website (http://www.homeschoolwithsaxon.com/) that has a newsletter with a lot of good informaion for using Saxon successfully. HTH

 

I wanted to expand a bit on the no grading homework part, as I found this really changed our relationship with Saxon for the better. The only thing I changed about homework was writing down or stating a grade, nothing else. I still assigned the same amount of problems (all), checked for accuracy, required correction of any missed problems. I just didn't assign the grade. For some reason that I totally don't get, that one difference really changed my daughter's attitude and willingness. I would never have predicted this.

 

Now, after my initial discussion with Mr. Reed, I did take away not only not grading homework but not checking it (except to verify it has been completed) because you will see quickly on a test whether there are issues or not. I can't do that and I see only limited value in it if the child doesn't get feedback on whether they are practicing correctly or not. I don't see the value in faulty practice and would rather correct an issues (whether it be carelessness or conceptual) as soon as possible so that further practice is not reinforcing poor understanding or poor habits. I know that in Alg 1/2 (and I suppose the upper level books), answers to either the odd or even problems are in the back so that the student could theoretically check themselves on that portion, so maybe that's part of his thinking, I don't know.

[Ellie]

Art Reed is ONE "expert", but there are others with differing approaches. Art Reed is also a seller, and that gives him an agenda. Be discriminating with his advice. Take some. Leave some.

 

In general I expected a student to try and correct their problem on their own, before offering assistance.

 

I never, never, never skipped problems in Saxon.

 

I now drill math facts until they know the math facts. Period. If that means cutting back on textbook work, or abandoning it altogether for awhile, then so be it. I use what works. Copywork, online drill, flashcards, recitations, worksheets, strategies.

 

I am not afraid to have students working in books that are "below grade level". I've have seen great results from struggling students that were placed very low in Saxon. They moved slowly, but steadily through the series. They made progress, where they were not making progress before. Their standardized text scores rose despite working in a book with a lower number than the previous one from another publisher.

 

I used to be in a such a rush, rush, rush with math. Since so far all my students have started at a junior college, there is no rush. I like the new Simply Charlotte Mason pdf on taking a chill pill about math.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: especially with the bolded part.