everything but math

[roanna]

My son is just shy of 7 yrs old and math is a total torture.

 

He is working between 2nd-5th grade level on all other subjects and we technically just started 2nd grade. We live in TX , which is very liberal , no testing, nothing. But my husband's job will end in August and I am in a blank as to what to do with my son if we move to a state that makes us declare which grade he is in. In the fall he should be in 2nd grade due to his June birthday but there is no way he could go into 2nd grade math testing.

 

We are now doing MUS Alpha and he struggles so badly with regular math facts. If I put them all into word problem format he is much better. But if he looks at the paper and sees something as simple as 6-1= ? he starts to sweat and grabs his head. I put it into a word problem , there are 6 grapes and someone ate one how many grapes are there he gets it. But every single problem has to be done this way for him to not pull his hair out.

 

He is a good student otherwise, begs to do more spelling and steals the history read alouds and books we are using to read more.

 

If you have a child who was similar, I want to know:

 

How would you place him if we move to a state where we have to declare his grade?

 

My instincts want to just bag math for 6 months and see if he matures in this aspect cognitively, would that be awful?

I feel I am fighting against the wind with math as a whole.

 

PS: I did just purchase Kitchen Table Math and it will arrive soon. Maybe this would help???

I am also reading Right Brained Child in Left Brained World and so much applies to him.

[brownie]

You declare his grade based on his age regardless of what level he's operating at. At least here. You have no idea what will happen with him down the road in math. He's just 7.

[roanna]

If I declare he is 2nd grade for the fall and he cannot pass a test for even all of first grade math, that's not good. That's what makes me ask the question.

[freesia]

If I declare he is 2nd grade for the fall and he cannot pass a test for even all of first grade math, that's not good. That's what makes me ask the question.

It depends on where you are. I really wouldn't worry about that quite yet. In some of the states with testing, if you are able to show 1 years growth, that is sufficient. If you are in one of those states you would test at the beginning of the year and again at the end of the year.

 

Continue to work on the math concepts concretely---manipulatives, stories, etc. Because my boys were so slow to develop fine motor skills (but advanced in math) we did most of math orally through the first 1/2 of second grade (and with my present second grader, still the majority of math.) I also copy out math problems so they don't have to deal with small print or cluttered pages. If you write 6-1 large, on a separate piece of paper, does he do the same thing?

[wapiti]

If I declare he is 2nd grade for the fall and he cannot pass a test for even all of first grade math, that's not good. That's what makes me ask the question.

 

 

I was going to suggest that you could be dealing with an LD, specifically, dyscalcula, which has been discussed recently on the Learning Challenges board (and along with that I might think about the possibility of developmental vision issues). However, I just realized that he's younger than 7 and still in first grade right now - he doesn't sound terribly behind, even though he may be behind his ability in other subjects.

 

FWIW, required annual testing depends entirely on what state you move to. In our state, it's only in odd-numbered grades and not until 3rd. And, usually, the testing is toward the end of the school year, not the beginning, and often requires a pretty low minimum percentile score. But, it all depends on the state.

 

Personally, I would not bag math for 6th months to wait for cognitive maturity. I might switch things up a bit, try different things (games, c-rods with the Education Unboxed videos, etc.), but no way would I lay off completely. If math facts are a problem even while concepts are well-understood, I might work on facts separately while moving forward with concepts.

[KarenNC]

I have a child whose tests have shown very large discrepancies between her verbal and math skills consistently (as in multiple grade levels) from kindergarten on. I know, in our case, we struggled for several years in Singapore because I was convinced it was the only way to go for a bright child (and I liked it quite a lot). It was torture, she felt like she was totally a failure, and every single day was a struggle. She would look at a problem and suddenly not be able to even pick up a pencil to copy it down :banghead: . Lots of stress, lots of tears, lots of hiding under a blanket. I ended up switching to Saxon after Singapore 4a, and it was night and day. She's still not ever going to be advanced in math or love it, but she no longer feels dumb about it, and we only have irregular arguments (at least over math ;) --she is 12 after all).

 

In her case, she needed the regular constant review of Saxon. Instead of "drill and kill," for us it was "drill and survive then thrive." She said that Singapore went too fast for her and it stressed her a lot. She still gets 1/3 or more of her homework problems wrong the first time and has to go back to correct them, but she isn't paralyzed when she makes a mistake any more. Her test scores are creditable, a high B average. She also didn't become solid in all her math facts until we did xtramath.org in 6th grade. I thought she'd never learn to tell time with an analog clock. This was all made harder because I had a relatively easy time with math (at least through calculus) and it was frustrating to me that she couldn't seem to get things that seemed totally obvious to me. It helped that my husband, the English major (guess which parent she takes after in math), could remind me that he had the same issues she did. Our minds just work differently when it comes to math. Now I don't know if you need to switch programs or not, and even if so, to which program, but that was our experience and I wish I'd done it earlier. The level of stress was an indication that we had a fundamental mismatch with the type and pace of program. We also tried Life of Fred (given that she's so verbal), but, again, not enough math and review to function as a stand alone for us even though she enjoyed the story. She is now in 7th grade in pre-algebra and on track to start algebra 1 in 8th. She recently took the ACT as part of the Duke TIP program and placed easily into the highest level of eligibility for humanities, but didn't come anywhere near qualifying for anything in math/science. :001_smile: I think it's easy to expect a kid advanced in some or many areas to be equally advanced in all, or at least close, but that's not been our experience with this kid. FWIW, I don't think she has any LDs, I think she's just asynchronous, which is not at all uncommon with gifted kids.

 

As to the bagging math for 6 months, I wouldn't drop it totally, but I might well switch up programs. I had to do that just a month or so ago with my daughter. We hit a wall in Saxon Algebra 1/2 (we had what we call a "Singapore day" ;) ), so I dropped Saxon for a couple of weeks and let her work on Khan Academy at whatever she wanted to work on. We then came back to Saxon and things are better. I notice that she'll have these walls often right before some sort of developmental jump, probably in a totally unrelated area, or growth spurt. Sometimes it helps to just give the concept time to gel, I guess.

 

As for worrying about testing, in NC, we have to test each year from age 7, but we do not have to turn in the results or show any particular score/progress. You just have to keep proof of testing so that you can show it if the state asks for it. I've been homeschooling for 8 years (6 since we had to register) and I haven't been asked yet, nor have I known anyone who has said they were. I've always just said she was in the grade she would be chronologically, even though she's doing subjects over a wide grade range.

 

Good luck!

[roanna]

Thank you Karen. All the things I needed to hear :)

 

 

[mathwonk]

Try to relax. he is only 7. it's a little early to start freaking out about how stressful school can be. My son didn't start reading well until his late teens. Now he is a gifted creative writer and high school English teacher. You'll both be fine, in all probability. trust me.

[SKL]

I'm not doing super awesome in that department myself, but I agree with those who say don't dump math, but try another curriculum / approach. Since he does well with word problems, keep giving him those and consider adding some math-themed storybooks. Real-life problems involving counting money / making change might also go over better than "6-1." You could work through them together and then just model for him how the real-world problem translates to a written equation.

 

My dds use Singapore Math at school, which just doesn't speak to my eldest (6.5). I recently bought a couple of practice workbooks, and each day we work a little on the topic they are covering at school, and then we go way back to the beginning of 1A to remediate what she didn't get the first time around. Thankfully she is doing a lot better the second time around. We'll keep doing this through the summer in the hope that she'll start strong with 2A in the fall.

[kiana]

I don't see anything wrong with doing every single problem that way for a while. I really, really don't.

 

He's only seven. Asynchrony is common. Keep going *gently*.

[roanna]

He enjoyed doing Ray's for a while. I might try that again.

[Targhee]

Many gifted kids develop asynchronously, and often are gifted in some areas and not in others. If you move to a place where you have to declare grade level I would put him at either his age level or whatever grade level he is working at in his weakest area. If you later want to accelerate (like early high school graduation) then you can start taking classes for credit at 7th grade (or whenever appropriate).

 

Perhaps doing something more visual will help with math? Maybe doing Miquon or watching Education Unboxed videos? RightStart math games? We play other games like Frog Juice and EarthQuake which require math but in a fun way. It may be that he has a LD, or it may be that he is incredibly visual and needs something he can see in his head. Just keep trying things, WITH NO PRESSURE. Make math time a fun time. Good luck!

[Targhee]

Oh, I wanted to add that while oldest DD could do calculations in her head at 4, she took until 5th grade to get all her math facts memorized. I freaked out several times, but looking back I shoudl have just stayed calm.

[roanna]

Along with reading your comments I spent a lot of time reading the Right Brained child in a left brained world, and that was sooo helpful. I'm going to take their practical suggestions and implement them. I can see my teaching style was not helping him in math.

[2smartones]

I have exactly the same child... only, we've passed that hump. He was always wonderful in everything except math. I thought dyscalculia, but the edu psych looked at test scores and didn't agree. Eventually, he matured, and just "got it". His math still isn't at the same level as everything else, but in every sub-topic of math, he's at or above where he should be, so I just don't fret about it anymore.

 

For placement with the state, go by age. For placement with a specialized group, go by whatever works for the group's scope at the time.

[KarenNC]

Thank you Karen. All the things I needed to hear :)

 

Glad I could be of help. Also, don't think that difficulties at this stage in math preclude doing decently with science. My daughter and her partners (different one each year) took medals in their events at our regional Science Olympiad Division A competitions two years running, up against teams from very well funded and selective private and public schools as well as the team from the local charter which requires a 130 IQ to even apply, much less to then get on their SO team. It turns out her science interest is in biology and she hates physics (no big surprise there :001_rolleyes:---I was the opposite ) but her math didn't hold her back. She has, however, elected to drop SO in favor of more art classes now that she's older.

 

I think that part of the stress for my daughter came in part precisely because she was so advanced in other areas. She expected it *all* to come as easily to her. She's also a bit of a perfectionist (like many gifted kids, it seems), so if she looked at a problem and couldn't readily see how to work it to the end it was very stressful for her to think that she might fail or do badly, which sent her into a tailspin from the beginning. It's taken a while to help her realize that having to work at something doesn't mean you're stupid, that you should give up on it or that it's not worth doing. We still have occasional issues with this. Heck, *I* still have issues with this :D ---ask my husband about how much and how I can agonize over curriculum options for fear of not getting "the right one!"

[AK_Mom4]

Give him some counters/manipulatives and relax. One of my kiddos did not make the leap to "mental math" until sometime near the end of 3rd grade. He needed concrete images - blocks, m&ms, poker chips, counting on fingers - to work out the problems. This is the same kid who is currently taking Calculus as a junior in high school and aceing every test. Lowest score so far is a 98% because he forgot to put his name on the test paper.

 

Kitchen Table math is a great program and lots of fun. Personally, I advocate letting kids use manipulatives up through beginning multiplication.

[mom2bee]

I can only speak to the math part, not the "What Grade Do I Put on the Form" part.

 

The Verbal Math Lesson.

Hello Math Readers

Arithmetic Village

Living Math <-- This is a great site, but for some reason it is currently offline.

 

If he can do the problems, but needs 'extra' to get them done, I wouldn't stress him or myself out. He is only 7. If he needs that additional step of a word problem, give it to him. Explore different math concepts with him and don't stress yourself out :). Steadily practices the addition and the subtraction parts while being sure that he knows the concept.

I would say continue to give him that bridging step of turning each number sentence into a word problem and teach him to read his math pages.

 

Talk about what + and - mean each time before you begin working just to give him a reminder and a boost. Do a few, or several, examples together where you read the problems in the following manner.

Ask him questions like, "If you had 5 toys in your toybox and I dumped in 12 more toys--how would you find out how many toys are in the box?" If he can say "I would add 5 and 12" or "Count 12 on from 5" (or "5 on from 12") then he is on the right track, in my experience I wouldn't say he needs an extra evaluation or anything. Though you know your son best.

 

When you work on his math with him, read through the problems together as follows:

 

"7+9" means "7 plus 9, so that is saying to start with a group of 7 bears and then add 9 more bears to the group. How many bears are in the group after you add 7 and 9? 16. Good. 7 plus 9 is 16."

"6-4" means "6 minus 4, so this is telling us to start with a group of 6 kittens and then 4 of the kittens go away. How many bears are in the group after you take 4 kittens away? 2, great job buddy! 6-4 is 2"

 

 

 

Rinse and repeat as often as necessary. Try and do a several problems together, then get him to lead you both through all the extra thinking. It may be a very gradual process. Get him used to thinking about the problems conceptually and doing the work with manipulatives. The VML might be great for you guys.

Use manipulatives if you need to. (Different sized beans were a big help to me when I was teaching K-4 math)

 

Hugs to you both.

 

PS Do you think he might benefit from some work on placevalue, counting and skip counting?

[roanna]

The verbal math lesson looks great. I wish I would have not bought a real curriculum and just did those types of things with him.

[briansmama]

What is it with these gifted kids and math? Mine is complaining for the first time ever about math this year too. For him, it's the need for practice. He's used to mastering math concepts easily and moving on, but now he has to practice lots of different concepts. He doesn't like being asked to practice. In fact, he's quite adamant about that!

 

I agree with the pp to put him in whatever grade is appropriate for his age. If the state requires standardized testing, print out the practice test and go through it with him. This helped my ds see that I wasn't just torturing him for fun. He actually needs to know this stuff to technically move on to the next grade. I promised him I will give him minimal practice problems if he can show me he knows how to answer the questions.

 

This has worked really well for us. It's annoying, but necessary. Another thought going forward is to look into living math books. This is what works for us for math when we aren't practicing for the upcoming standardized test. They have math books on everything from football, baseball, real-life word problems, etc. My ds is working through pretty advanced concepts in his football math book. It's a slim little book packed with a lesson on every page that relates to football. He's learning how to compute averages to figure out Time of Possession, for example, and converting minutes to seconds, and yards to feet.

 

I've come to realize my need for math to be nicely sequential isn't going to work with this kid- he needs to be challenged and engaged or he's just not willing to do the work required when the math isn't available to him off the top of his head.