Future Engineer Science Sequence?

[KimberlyI]

My 9th grader is interested in an Aeronautical engineering degree. He has taken biology this year (taking AP test in May). I'm trying to finalize the sequence for the next 3 years. I'm thinking:

 

AP Chemistry 10th

AP Computer Science 11th

AP Physics C 12th

 

Electives will include Astronomy and Robotics and hopefully some sort of computer design, CAD or Solid Works perhaps?

 

Questions: can Physics C be taken without first taking Physics B? Since he will need Algebra 2 for AP chem and is just finishing geometry this year would it be feasible to take an "easy" Alg 2 such as MUS over the summer to give the foundation he will need for the chem and then take a much deeper Alg 2 concurrent with the chemistry?

 

Any other suggestions or advice would be most appreciated!

[Jen in NY]

I will preface this by saying that I am a know nothing when it comes to math and science. My husband's genes thankfully won out in this regard. :)

 

 

My dd is heading off to college in the fall as an engineering major, and many of her friends are into that sort of thing, too. One programming language that seems particularly important is Matlab. It's one of the first classes she has to take and is a prereq. for lots of further classes.

 

 

Also, you should know that next year is the last year for Physics B and C. There will be new names and new requirements after 2014.

 

 

Otherwise, your plan sounds great!

[Dicentra]

What curriculum did your son use for Alg 1? Which one for Geometry? The reason I ask is because there are differences between math curricula that might make a difference in whether or not he would be ready for the math in AP Chem. It isn't that the math itself in the course is that difficult but that chemistry can be very abstract and difficult and it's best if the student isn't struggling with the chemistry AND the math. KWIM?

 

Will the AP Chem be his first chemistry course?

 

I agree with the PP - AP Physics will be changing soon as will AP Chem so my thoughts may change after I see the new AP Chem exam next year. Actually, that's another thought... AP Chem is changing for the next school year (2013-2014). Sometimes it can be difficult for the students writing an AP exam in the first year after a change - scores will sometimes be lower since the students don't have a ton of old exam questions to work through. Although I guess your son is doing that this year with the AP Bio - he'd end up having that same scenario with 2 out of his 4 APs. Could he possibly take the AP Computer Science next year instead of the Chem?

[Julie in MN]

I just wanted to mention that for my engineer son (Petroleum Engineer working with natural gas in Colorado), science in high school was not nearly as important as math. I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to get some solid science courses down, but if you want to know where to put your extra time, I'd put it in math. The math in chemistry helps to have Algebra 2, but more than that, it just takes "math thinking," and math thinking happens when you do lots of math. IMHO.

 

My son had the basic bio-chem-physics in a below-par public high school, with no science after that. That didn't seem to affect his admissions or his success, and it doesn't really affect ACT scores. His college was impressed with his math scores and extra math things he did, though. He was glad to have had calculus twice (public school & community college) before starting calculus again in college, and I think it helped with the college sciences as well.

 

Julie

[regentrude]

I second Julie's advice. In the long run, his math preparation will be far more important than his high school science courses.

[jennynd]

DH has aerospace eng PhD degree and I have master in mechanical eng. We will not recommend CAD tool. It is easy to learn when you need it. However, as one of the PP said, Matlab is super duper popular in engineering world. It is script language with lots of tool boxs. I will highly recommend your DS do MATLAB instead of CAD.

 

I will not take a easy math course. Aero needs tons of math .

[Luckymama]

Actually Physics B is the exam changing for 2014-15 (of course, C could, and probably will, change in a future year) http://advancesinap.collegeboard.org/science/physics

 

Work hard on his math!!!

 

I'd be concerned about taking Chemistry the first year of a change. Dd is taking AP Bio and I must admit that I'm very nervous. Her teacher has a great record of 4s and 5s...with the old exam :eek:

[KimberlyI]

What curriculum did your son use for Alg 1? Which one for Geometry?

 

 

Will the AP Chem be his first chemistry course?

 

 

 

 

He used Chalk Dust for Algebra 1 and he is using the Holt text in an online geometry class with Jann in Tx from these boards. He struggled a bit with Alg 1. I think his understanding was fine but his scores did not often reflect that due to frequent silly mistakes. He is doing very well in the current algebra based geometry class.

 

He used Conceptual Chemistry last year along with all the chemistry TOPS labs. He enjoyed the class and is eager to take chemistry again. He is doing well in biology but anxious to get back to physical science.

 

I'm not thrilled that he will be taking the AP Bio test in the first year of a new format but there didn't seem to be a better option so hopefully if he is solid on the content he will do ok.

 

He could do computer science instead of chemistry next year but will he have the same problem of not enough math yet?

[KimberlyI]

I I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to get some solid science courses down, but if you want to know where to put your extra time, I'd put it in math. The math in chemistry helps to have Algebra 2, but more than that, it just takes "math thinking," and math thinking happens when you do lots of math. IMHO.

 

Julie

 

 

After doing many engineering related searches recently I understand that he needs to concentrate on math. I'm not sure where to go next. He would rather not use Chalk Dust again. I don't know much about Art of Problem Solving but from what I have gleaned that may be the best option for that very important "math thinking." Anything else I should consider?

[Gwen in VA]

AP Computer Science is not usually considered a "science." I would definitely recommend doing it in 11th grade, as you have listed, but I'd recommend doing it in addition to a traditional lab science -- possibly physics to help prepare for AP Physics C.

 

I have had four kids do AP Physics B with no prior physics background, so if he is a strong math/science kid I would say that he could go straight into AP Physics C, but if you have time in 11th grade i would definitely recommend a physics class -- even if it's just a 1/2 credit run through of Conceptual Physics so he has an idea of what he will be seeing in AP Physics C.

 

Math, math, math. I have heard good things about AoPS, but my oldest went through long enough ago that it wasn't popular back then. We have used Dolciani for Algebra 2, and Brown for "Advanced Mathematics" (i.e. precalculus). If strong math scores are indicative of a strong curriculum then these have our endorsement! I particularly recommend the Dolciani Algebra 2 -- my dd (in a Ph.D. program in engineering at the #2 school in her field) has called up more than once in her grad school years to thank me for using that particular textbook!!!!! Apparently there are a few things she picked up from that textbook that no one else in her grad school class had any knowledge of!!!!!

 

Do remember extracurriculars that relate to anything hands-on or applied. TheEC's can be anything from kite building to cabinet making to robotics to sewing to R/C airplanes to electronics, but engineering schools are increasingly having problems with students who have lived on their computers and lack the "common sense" that comes from having dealt with REAL materials. Any student who has hands-on experience will stand out. (And if he wants to get involved in Civil Air Patrol and get his flying license for little or for free, so much the better!)

 

My dh has spent his whole career in the aero /astron world and still loves it!

[Dicentra]

He used Chalk Dust for Algebra 1 and he is using the Holt text in an online geometry class with Jann in Tx from these boards. He struggled a bit with Alg 1. I think his understanding was fine but his scores did not often reflect that due to frequent silly mistakes. He is doing very well in the current algebra based geometry class.

 

He used Conceptual Chemistry last year along with all the chemistry TOPS labs. He enjoyed the class and is eager to take chemistry again. He is doing well in biology but anxious to get back to physical science.

 

I'm not thrilled that he will be taking the AP Bio test in the first year of a new format but there didn't seem to be a better option so hopefully if he is solid on the content he will do ok.

 

He could do computer science instead of chemistry next year but will he have the same problem of not enough math yet?

 

I don't know anything about AP Computer Science so I can't speak to how much math is needed - sorry! :)

 

Conceptual Chem is equivalent to a Reg Chem course so he may find it a big jump to the level of AP Chem. (Although it'll depend on what they do with AP Chem after the change.) Grade 11 is probably a better age for trying AP Chem but YMMV. :)

 

I feel for the folks having their students take APs in change years - it has to be stressful.

[Jen in NY]

I feel for the folks having their students take APs in change years - it has to be stressful.

 

It is! Maybe I am making too much of it, but this year in APBio has been so stressful that my daughter and I talked about it and she will opt to take PhysicsB next year and put chem off for the second year of the exam. Luckily she is ready in the math department. I don't think I could deal with a new exam all three years in a row for her, especially after her sister had a million and one resources to prep for the exams and dd2 has exactly one published "college board" practice exam. I hope I am steering her in the right direction as far as preparation goes.

 

All I can say is,

Mr. Anderson from Bozeman, Montana - I love you.

 

OP - I heart AoPS, and if your son is interested in trying it out he can sign up for a free account on their website and try the Alcumus math quiz. I have written about it a gazillion times before..... it's fun!

[Julie in MN]

After doing many engineering related searches recently I understand that he needs to concentrate on math. I'm not sure where to go next. He would rather not use Chalk Dust again. I don't know much about Art of Problem Solving but from what I have gleaned that may be the best option for that very important "math thinking." Anything else I should consider?

 

My oldest was public schooled so no direct experience with math program success, but from his experience, I'm not sure that going thru one single program is as desirable as some hope -- my son had experiences in different places and with different programs, and it seems to have done him well. His school was very uncompetitive, but he participated in a couple of math competitions, participated in our university's UMPTYMP program, did a year of independent-study math through his school when they couldn't offer him anything else, went to a community college as a senior, etc.

 

Youngest son tests well in math, but he's still in 11th. I've been pleased with what he's done:

 

- Singapore Primary

- Tons of math facts work, including up through fractions & decimals, using a variety of things (I used to tutor at Kumon, so that was one thing we used at times, but not all the time)

- A math team that used a lot of the old competitions online from AMC, etc., builds a different muscle than using a program sequentially

- Math Relief for algebra, my favorite

- Geometry went from Jacobs to TT, seamlessly, not sure on what's best there, oldest son never even had a geometry course (but wishes he did)

- A brief stint with AOPS Probability but this son disliked it greatly

- College courses for Algebra 3 & Precalc this year

 

Julie

[AngieW in Texas]

While it is possible to take Physics C without ever having had a physics course before, I wouldn't recommend it.

 

Computer Science doesn't count as a science even though it has science in the name. I would recommend doing some level of physics that year. He can do Conceptual, regular high school level, Honors, or AP Physics B level (although I wouldn't bother with the AP test since he's planning to take Physics C).

 

No school will give credit for both Physics B and Physics C, so if he takes a course at the level of Physics B, I would not bother with the AP test. Taking the SAT subject test at that time would be a good idea though.

[8filltheheart]

 

 

After doing many engineering related searches recently I understand that he needs to concentrate on math. I'm not sure where to go next. He would rather not use Chalk Dust again. I don't know much about Art of Problem Solving but from what I have gleaned that may be the best option for that very important "math thinking." Anything else I should consider?

 

A few thoughts.....

 

I would not recommend AoPS for a student that struggled through alg 1 unless he went back and worked through their alg 1 course (actually, I would actually recommend a quick run through their pre-alg course before their alg text depending on why he struggled with alg 1.) Alg is foundational to everything. He needs to be solid in alg if he is going to excel in all upper level math and science courses.

 

My concern is that he is a rising 10th grader and you have heavy duty AP science courses listed. If he is willing to spend the summer repeating alg 1, then that is what I would concentrate on first. I would make sure his math is rock solid. He doesn't need a list of completed AP exams to get accepted into an engineering program. He does, however, need a solid foundation.

 

If it were my student, I would suggest something like

summer--re-do alg 1 (either from a text like Foersters or possibly attempt AoPS.....but from what you have posted I would go with Foersters. It is a heavy applied math program which is what engineers do. AoPS is more theoretical and is really better suited for strong, confident math students IMHO. )

 

10th--Foersters alg 2 and either a standard high school (non-conceptual) chemistry or physics course

 

11th--Foersters pre-cal and perhaps the AP version of whichever course taken in 10th or the other science

 

12th--AP calculus BC exam and the science not taken in 10th/11th

 

I also agree with the other posters that he should take 4 yrs of science and that computer science is not classified as science.

[kiana]

I would not count computer science as a science. I think he would be better served by taking a high school physics course for tenth grade. Taking physics C as the first physics course in a while (since you said he had bio in 9th and conceptual chem in 8th) will be excessively difficult. Remember, he has to not only get into engineering school but stay there. The math schedule looks okay.

 

Assuming that 10th grade goes excellently with alg 2/some sort of physics, that would leave the door open for precalc/ap chem and then calculus/ap phys -- but if it's a struggle, be ready to drop back to honors chem for 11th. The math is more important.

[KimberlyI]

Thanks for all the helpful advice! I have spent so much time going over and over all of this in my head that I appreciate having a perspective other than my own.

 

So...putting together all your advice...we will delete a year of computer science - find out more about MATLAB- and return to my original plan of 2 years of chemistry or physics and 1 year of the other.

 

10th chemistry/Foersters Alg 2

11th AP Chemistry/ Pre-Calc

12th Physics/Calculus

 

OR

 

10th Physics (maybe Derek Owens? I have not looked into it much but seems to get good reviews here/Foersters Alg 2

11th Chemistry/Pre Calc

12th Physics (Calculus based? maybe Dual Enrollment)/Calculus

 

Is it important which science he has more of, chemistry or Physics? Is AP important? Is it important to have outside validation of his studies? Perhaps his time would be better spent on AP in other subjects that could give him college credit outside his chosen field, or maybe that would just be too much time away from his concentration. So many decisions.....maybe I'm over-analyzing?

 

Thanks!

[Gwen in VA]

Help your son pursue his interests, not just college credits. AP classes take lots of time, and at least my engineering kids aren't crazy about puring endless hours into the humanities. They have many more AP science credits than humanities credits because that reflects their interests and academic strength. If physics makes him happy, pursue it at greater depth (probably at least AP physics B).

 

Also, if your kid has an engineering bent, his strengths may be better demonstrated by getting 5's in AP Chemistry and AP Physics than in getting 4's in AP history! Choose AP classes where you are certain your kid can excel AND he wants to put in the extra time necessary to do well.

 

Physics is a tiny bit more relevant to engineering than chemistry, but honestly help him pursue whichever one makes him happier!

 

And definitely do consider some computer programming -- I would not discard the idea of AP Computer Science at this point. If he is interested in computer programming, that course could be one of his favorites in all of high school!

 

FYI, I have three kids who use Mat Lab, and none of them took a course in it. It's a tool, and most students just learn to use it on the fly. I didn't know that classes in it were even available!

 

Talk to your son about his interests, and get him involved in helping to plan his high school courses. As parents we need to provide some kind of framework for our kids, but many of the choices involved in selecting individual classes can be left to our teens.

 

And be prepared to adjust your plans each year. We've had class time conflicts, we've had kids change their focus and not want to take a certain class, and we've realized that certain sets of classes just don't make a happy combination for one reason or another. Flexibility is the name of the game!

[8filltheheart]

 

Physics is a tiny bit more relevant to engineering than chemistry, but honestly help him pursue whichever one makes him happier!

 

 

 

Unless of course they are pursuing chemical engineering. ;) (chemical engineers typically only take 1-2 semesters of physics.)

 

OP, I agree that he should still do some computer programming. Also, Mat Lab is just one option that engineering students use. My ds preferred Maple. Maple also has fantastic support. FWIW, I wouldn't really worry about either one until he is at calculus level.

[KimberlyI]

Help your son pursue his interests, not just college credits. AP classes take lots of time, and at least my engineering kids aren't crazy about puring endless hours into the humanities.

 

Talk to your son about his interests, and get him involved in helping to plan his high school courses. As parents we need to provide some kind of framework for our kids, but many of the choices involved in selecting individual classes can be left to our teens.

 

 

 

 

I think finding the balance is difficult. I want so much for him to be a kid and have the opportunity to enjoy learning! To have the time for electives that excite him and time for sports and just kid stuff! At the same time I know he has to be prepared for the next stage. I think I worry too much about providing the "right" framework.

[regentrude]

 

I think finding the balance is difficult. I want so much for him to be a kid and have the opportunity to enjoy learning! To have the time for electives that excite him and time for sports and just kid stuff! At the same time I know he has to be prepared for the next stage. I think I worry too much about providing the "right" framework.

 

 

The way we deal with this balance is to focus on a framework of rigorous core subjects: math, science, foreign language, history, English, one credit in each per year; the rest (electives) is interest led. That gives my DD enough time to have extracurriculars and unstructured time.

[Luckymama]

 

 

I think finding the balance is difficult. I want so much for him to be a kid and have the opportunity to enjoy learning! To have the time for electives that excite him and time for sports and just kid stuff! At the same time I know he has to be prepared for the next stage. I think I worry too much about providing the "right" framework.

 

Granted, dd is only is seventh grade. She spends 45-75 minutes per day on five core subjects-----math, science, history, geography, and English. She gets a break during the lunch hour to play or read or stare at the clouds. Whatever. She may work on any electives she wishes (robotics, more science, logic puzzles, etc) after the core work is finished for the day.

 

She completes everything academic by 2:30, giving her time for a good snack before she needs to get ready for extracurriculars. She has ballet three evenings during the week (more on Saturdays). She has Lego Leagure practice twice a week, minimum, during the season from August through January. Right now she is in rehearsal for Sound of Music at her older sister's high school (she's the youngest von Trapp child), three afternoons per week.

[8filltheheart]

 

 

I think finding the balance is difficult. I want so much for him to be a kid and have the opportunity to enjoy learning! To have the time for electives that excite him and time for sports and just kid stuff! At the same time I know he has to be prepared for the next stage. I think I worry too much about providing the "right" framework.

 

 

You can't compare a 9th grader with a college freshman. Think about your child in 1st grade. How much did they change between 1st and 5th? How about from 5th to 9th? As long as he is receiving a solid 9th grade level workload in 9th, 10th grade in 10th, etc, you don't have to attempt college in high school.

 

AP courses are supposed to be the equivalent of college level work. For some students, that is just the natural place where they are functioning. But it isn't all students and all students don't need to be. I have had students in both places. My oldest didn't do any "advanced" work until 12th grade. In 12th he dual enrolled for cal, chem, and English (math and science at a university and English at a CC). He graduated near the top of his class in chemical engineering. Not having lists of APs did not "hurt" his admissions, nor did it "hurt" his academic success, nor did it "hurt" his employability (employers could careless about APs. They want to see work excellent GPA and work experience.) For college success, I would focus more on making sure his foundation is rock solid than crushing in vast amts of info (which is what APs do. AP chem, physics, bio can give 2 college semesters of credit)

 

OTOH, I have a student who would be bored to tears doing high school level work. He is pretty much not even being challenged in his college math and science classes. (he got back a diffEQ exam yesterday and made a 50/50.) It isn't like he was pushed and stressed to accomplish this level of work. It is simply who he is and where he is at.

 

Anyway, just look at the child in your household---who he is, what he is capable of doing, what he needs to be doing that particular yr (having a vague idea of where you are going is a good idea, but be flexible to change. I had no idea in 8th or 9th grade what 11th and 12th actually ended up looking like.) Let school be a part of their life, but not so time consuming that they can't still be a kid. Adulthood comes quickly.