tagglelim Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I am pretty sure that we are going to be joining Classical Conversations for Foundations next year. My eldest will be in 4th grade, so I am considering Essentials as well. Essentials is tempting for the math games and IEW portions, to be sure. BUT, I'm scared of EEL. I'm hesitant to relinquish Rod & Staff when there have been so many mixed reviews for EEL. Some folks say it is great. Others say that the student doesn't learn to apply the information, there isn't enough practice, that they struggle in their middle-school years. Arg - which is it?? So please, tell me the good, the bad, and the ugly. Or the great! Would it be worth it to give EEL a try? Could I just keep up my own grammar at home? If I DID keep up my own grammar, would Essentials still be worth it? It is a hefty price tag, so I'd like to make the most of it, ya know? And then...I'm so tempted by MCT, LOL! But that is another story.... Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k3bzr18 Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I have it heard that about struggling! I have truly only heard positive reviews. The great thing about Essentials with your daughter is she will get three years to really understand and practice the writing and diagraming (parsing). If you don't like it, you could always start something at home for the next year. Just my .02 and the feedback I have heard re: Essentials. Blessings! Lynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prissygirls Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I am following this. We tried Essentials this year with my fourth grader and dropped out. It was too much for her... Mainly the EEL. I am wondering if I should try again for 5th grade. Also if I should just do my own thing for grammar just like you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bethben Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 It really depends on the tutor. A good tutor will really enhance the program and bring all the scattered pieces together. It's a lot to figure out and the manual is not set up to work well without a good tutor. We had an excellent tutor when ds did EEL and we learned a lot. I did keep up with Rod and Staff just because I too wondered if the program could really work. Both wasn't hard to do and it made me realize how really excellent Rod and Staff really is. Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdrumm4448 Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 We are in our second year of Essentials and I'm sorry we didn't keep it to just one year. The grammar was great. Thorough, and almost too much. The writing makes me want to gag. Some kids find their voice with IEW. The required dressups on the checklist masked my son's. People just don't write that way. I also vehemently dislike training a child to stick an adverb somewhere in a sentence just so he can say he used one. Adverbs are not your friend. Stick to curriculum that emphasizes using strong nouns and verbs, without relying on adverbs. MCT does that. It is also beautiful, which is important for us. We are also using WWS1, and my son LOVES the combination. He is bright, but can be lazy. He likes the independent nature of WWS1. He also likes MCT because he works best when it's just him and I. By the time we get to Essentials in the afternoon, his mind is shot. He'd much rather sit on the couch and read MCT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in VA Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 We were in CC for one year. My middle daughter was the age to do Essentials. I looked at it and went to the introduction meeting and training for it but decided against it. However, I had an older daughter who did Challenge 1 that year. She had done grammar at home and the rest of the class had done Essentials. I can't speak to their writing but I know those students struggled mightily in the Latin class. At one point the tutor asked me what we had done for grammar because my daughter was the only one who understood grammar well enough for the Latin studies. I have no idea what it was about Essentials that made the transition to applying grammar difficult but across the board those kids had trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I'm a long-term Essentials tutor, long enough to have a handful of former students who are at the high school level now. And there have been no concerns with the quality of the program for my students. I have several who are in Latin 3 now, and among those one who is a gold medal winner on the National Latin Exam. That said, I've heard horror stories of tutors reading most of the lesson from EEL and the IEW book for class time, and a few who were so bad that the majority of the parents quit in December. Obviously that is a concern, but IMHO it is a concern with any paid class. If you pay for a class, you need to check out both the teacher and the curriculum. And yes, if you don't like IEW, you won't like Essentials. And I wouldn't recommend doing another grammar program along with Essentials. I've had families do that and not tell me, and it always ends up with a meeting with the parents to see why the poor student is getting mixed up on definitions and methods. I'm fine if they want to do something else over the summer, but it can get pretty confusing if you are doing two at once during the school year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tagglelim Posted March 21, 2013 Author Share Posted March 21, 2013 Hmmmm - all food for thought. Thanks so far, everyone. This is tough! From what I'm hearing, I'm really tempted to hold onto my Rod & Staff. It is tried, true, and solid. However, you make good points, G5052. I don't want to confuse my girl. And, I do love the idea of help with writing via IEW. I also love the idea of having papers/projects due in a class format. I think accountability to someone else could be a great experience. What to do, what to do. LOL, cdrumm4448! Now I have that mantra in my head......"Adverbs are not your friend. Adverbs are not your friend!" I must say, this is one aspect of IEW I don't like. I recently asked an Essentials tutor if we would get in trouble if we dropped the "ly" word. They said no. And in TWTM, Susan herself gives permission to drop those "ly" words if choosing to use IEW. I feel free from adverbs! :lol: Any other experienced Essential folks want to way in? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tagglelim Posted March 21, 2013 Author Share Posted March 21, 2013 Bump :bigear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourisenough Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Well, no experience here, but we're in the same boat. We'll be joining CC this fall and are planning to do both Foundations and Essentials. I recently picked up the Essentials manual, but haven't spent too much time with it. It looks sort of confusing and overwhelming, but that is because I've only peaked at it with a toddler on my lap and 20 other things going on. I look forward to really studying it. My daughter will be young (8, turning 9 at the end of October), but has completed VIE 1 & 2 and FLL 3. She has a fairly good understanding of parts of speech and parts of sentences. My hunch is that this will be very helpful (possibly critical) to success in Essentials this fall. She has also done WWE 1-3, and she is not a reluctant writer. I will definitely continue WWE because I think the narration & dictation instruction and practice is such an important skill. That said, I'll have no problem dropping Essentials if it doesn't work for some reason. The $$ wasted would be painful, but not worth continuing with a bad fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland_Mom Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 The short answer to your question: Yes, you CAN trust Essentials! I've had kids in Essentials classes for the last 5 years. I've tutored Challenge A and Challenge B, and this year I'm tutoring Essentials. Of course, a good tutor is a huge plus, but the time the parent puts into it at home is just as important. During our first year of Essentials I had one foot in class and the other in our grammar books at home. The year was okay, but I spent too much time conflicted and wondering about how I should cover grammar with my kids. Our second year of Essentials went MUCH better because I used the whole program with my son. We've been using Essentials as our grammar/writing program since. Essentials does have A LOT of information, and it can feel overwhelming to first year parents. B. . . you must realize that it is meant to be a three year program. The first tour through Essentials, students focus on learning the grammar of grammar -- the parts of speech, correct sentence structure, sentence purposes, and how to diagram sentences. The new guide (released in 2011) breaks down the material for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd year students/parents pretty well. This really helps parents understand how to assign material appropriately at home. Essentials breaks down the English language so it is easy to understand. Families who really use it at home, truly benefit from it! BTW, I think it does a very nice job of preparing kids for Latin studies (especially those who do Foundations, too). I highly recommend that you sit in on a class or at least review the first three weeks of material. That will give you a good overview of how the class flows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdrumm4448 Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 LOL, cdrumm4448! Now I have that mantra in my head......"Adverbs are not your friend. Adverbs are not your friend!" I must say, this is one aspect of IEW I don't like. I recently asked an Essentials tutor if we would get in trouble if we dropped the "ly" word. They said no. And in TWTM, Susan herself gives permission to drop those "ly" words if choosing to use IEW. I feel free from adverbs! :lol: Thanks! What I finally realized is that 1) I do not like someone else driving the schedule 2) I don't like turning assignments in to someone else because I am a control freak and 3) If I was going to majorly adjust the program (by eliminating the checklist), then why take the class? It's a lot of money to chop it up and adjust it. At this point we are making ourselves attend the last four classes - because I paid for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourisenough Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Back with another question about Essentials. For those of you who have had a child go through it (or have tutored Essentials yourself), do you use the optional spelling rules/lists as your main spelling instruction? Also, is the vocabulary included with IEW enough for vocabulary study? Or do you recommend completing another program at home? We are using R & S for spelling (and plan to continue, unless advised otherwise) and plan to use Vocabulary from the Classical Roots for 4th grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nwmama Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 We are in our second year of Essentials and I'm sorry we didn't keep it to just one year. The grammar was great. Thorough, and almost too much. The writing makes me want to gag. Some kids find their voice with IEW. The required dressups on the checklist masked my son's. People just don't write that way. I also vehemently dislike training a child to stick an adverb somewhere in a sentence just so he can say he used one. Adverbs are not your friend. Stick to curriculum that emphasizes using strong nouns and verbs, without relying on adverbs. MCT does that. It is also beautiful, which is important for us. We are also using WWS1, and my son LOVES the combination. He is bright, but can be lazy. He likes the independent nature of WWS1. He also likes MCT because he works best when it's just him and I. By the time we get to Essentials in the afternoon, his mind is shot. He'd much rather sit on the couch and read MCT. So glad to hear this! Our director really pushes Essentials but I'm just not sold on it. I really don't like the formulaic system. I love WWE and TWJ so I have a feeling that by the time we get to Essentials it's just going to clash with what we are already doing. What I finally realized is that 1) I do not like someone else driving the schedule 2) I don't like turning assignments in to someone else because I am a control freak and 3) If I was going to majorly adjust the program (by eliminating the checklist), then why take the class? It's a lot of money to chop it up and adjust it. At this point we are making ourselves attend the last four classes - because I paid for it. And if I did put my kids in Essentials I would just end up tweaking it constantly and that seems like a huge waste of money x 4! Question though... are they doing any logic in Essentials? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdrumm4448 Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Question though... are they doing any logic in Essentials? Not that I have seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrs.m Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Well, no experience here, but we're in the same boat. We'll be joining CC this fall and are planning to do both Foundations and Essentials. I recently picked up the Essentials manual, but haven't spent too much time with it. It looks sort of confusing and overwhelming, but that is because I've only peaked at it with a toddler on my lap and 20 other things going on. I look forward to really studying it. My daughter will be young (8, turning 9 at the end of October), but has completed VIE 1 & 2 and FLL 3. She has a fairly good understanding of parts of speech and parts of sentences. My hunch is that this will be very helpful (possibly critical) to success in Essentials this fall. She has also done WWE 1-3, and she is not a reluctant writer. I will definitely continue WWE because I think the narration & dictation instruction and practice is such an important skill. That said, I'll have no problem dropping Essentials if it doesn't work for some reason. The $$ wasted would be painful, but not worth continuing with a bad fit. The age requirement for Essentials is 9 at the start of the EEL class. And if you drop, you can request a refund. But, my guess would be your director and the tutor will encourage you to wait until the 14/15 school year to enroll or your DD will do 4 years of EEL. If you plan to do Challenge A, expect that they will not enroll a child that is not 12 on the first day of class if they are following CC's guidelines. And my understanding is that they are being firm about these age limits in both Essentials and Challenge programs. I found Essentials to be a great program if the parents are willing to put in the time to work with their child and not expect everything to come from the short period of time the tutor has each week to pass on information to the student. The parent and tutor need to understand how to scale the work and build each year. (sorry, I know that should be a new paragraph, but the editor won't accept my enter key press.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourisenough Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 The age requirement for Essentials is 9 at the start of the EEL class. And if you drop, you can request a refund. But, my guess would be your director and the tutor will encourage you to wait until the 14/15 school year to enroll or your DD will do 4 years of EEL. If you plan to do Challenge A, expect that they will not enroll a child that is not 12 on the first day of class if they are following CC's guidelines. And my understanding is that they are being firm about these age limits in both Essentials and Challenge programs. I found Essentials to be a great program if the parents are willing to put in the time to work with their child and not expect everything to come from the short period of time the tutor has each week to pass on information to the student. The parent and tutor need to understand how to scale the work and build each year. (sorry, I know that should be a new paragraph, but the editor won't accept my enter key press.) It is interesting to hear this. I asked the Director of my campus about the age requirement for Essentials and she said there is not a firm cut-off; basically, if you consider your child 4th grade, then she is eligible to join Essentials. I also asked at the practicum I attended last week and got the same response. The Area Manager who was the speaker of the Practicum said the same thing you mentioned above about Challenge having a firm '12 years of age on the first day of class' policy, but he echoed what I heard from my Director about Essentials. I wonder how I could confirm this? Does it say anywhere on the CC website? Thanks for any help you can provide. P.S. I should note that I will likely NOT participate in Challenge A, so the age requirement for that program will not be an issue for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrs.m Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 It's not on the website as most of the policies aren't. But it was mentioned many times at my training last week and at our practicum. The actual cut-off is Sept. 1, not the first day, sorry about that, I checked my notes. The support manager stated it at training as did the Essentials trainer. Then all of the exception questions came along and it was a clear "no". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrs.m Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I wonder if our manager is taking a firm position on this because we have 3 communities filled to the maximum? If you got permission, just continue on... 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NativeCalGal Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 I think it depends. My son enrolled as an 8 year old in Essentials because that director was told that Essentials is for 4-6th graders or an academic 3rd grader. We then moved to another state, where the director there accused (yes, accused) me of participating in an "unsanctioned" CC community because "we NEVER allow 8 year olds to enroll in Essentials." blech.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasingbutterflies Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 We are using MCT and IEW (ancient) with our world history - we love it. I am pretty sure that we are going to be joining Classical Conversations for Foundations next year. My eldest will be in 4th grade, so I am considering Essentials as well. Essentials is tempting for the math games and IEW portions, to be sure. BUT, I'm scared of EEL. I'm hesitant to relinquish Rod & Staff when there have been so many mixed reviews for EEL. Some folks say it is great. Others say that the student doesn't learn to apply the information, there isn't enough practice, that they struggle in their middle-school years. Arg - which is it?? So please, tell me the good, the bad, and the ugly. Or the great! Would it be worth it to give EEL a try? Could I just keep up my own grammar at home? If I DID keep up my own grammar, would Essentials still be worth it? It is a hefty price tag, so I'd like to make the most of it, ya know? And then...I'm so tempted by MCT, LOL! But that is another story.... Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tagglelim Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 We are using MCT and IEW (ancient) with our world history - we love it. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.