JumpyTheFrog Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/world/asia/in-korea-changes-in-society-and-family-dynamics-drive-rise-in-elderly-suicides.html?_r=0 Poverty among the elderly has led to the elderly suicide rate quadrupling since 2000. People think it's because so many parents spent all their extra money on their childrens' cram schools and extra tutoring, while saving nothing for retirement. In turn, they expected their children to pay for their retirement, but many children have moved to the cities to find jobs. Most of the elderly left behind have no pensions (government or private) and are ineligible for welfare unless their kids are unemployed. The article specifically mentioned that the culture of "saving face" leads to many elderly people being too ashamed to ask their family (or government) for help, so they kill themselves instead. (This whole "saving face" culture sounds like a huge pride problem to me, an outsider.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
********* Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 So sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Those of Asian descent are a very prideful people. It is ingrained and built into their culture. It will take re-educating over several generations to change that. The whole "ineligible for for welfare unless their kids are unemployed" is outrageous. I could almost see if it a certain percentage of the kids' pay went to the gov't to cover the parents. But that won't happen outside of South Korea. I'm not understanding why the kids aren't sending for their parents. I thought elder care was also a part of the culture. Maybe the kids are begging the to come to the cities and the parents are refusing. We also have to remember many of them do not have the same taboo against suicide that Christians have. It is a sad situation. Re-educating the parents, kids and government officials is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Those of Asian descent are a very prideful people. It is ingrained and built into their culture. It will take re-educating over several generations to change that. The whole "ineligible for for welfare unless their kids are unemployed" is outrageous. I could almost see if it a certain percentage of the kids' pay went to the gov't to cover the parents. But that won't happen outside of South Korea. I'm not understanding why the kids aren't sending for their parents. I thought elder care was also a part of the culture. Maybe the kids are begging the to come to the cities and the parents are refusing. We also have to remember many of them do not have the same taboo against suicide that Christians have. It is a sad situation. Re-educating the parents, kids and government officials is needed. Yes, it makes me wonder too. Could it be the economy is so bad that the kids don't have anything left for their parents after providing the minimum for their own family? I worry about our safety net here as well. We see elderly people waiting in line at the food bank all.the.time. and they do not look like they are doing well at all. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBeth Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Those of Asian descent are a very prideful people. It is ingrained and built into their culture. It will take re-educating over several generations to change that. Are you serious? Do you realize how incredibly bigoted this sounds? The concept of saving face is about way more than pride, and the very idea that "those of Asian descent" need "re-educating," as if their culture is inherently inferior to ours, is really offensive. I can only hope you didn't really mean this the way it sounded... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Here they have reduced the property taxes for seniors (worth app $7K/yr on the family home)so they can stay in the family home, but I meet so many that would rather shiver and starve than downsize out of the 3000 sq ft family home or reverse mortgage. The utilities and the upkeep are out of the budget for those that just have SS. We have a wonderful safety net of county van transportation and subsidized senior housing..but they won't use it. The number of 65 yr old baby boomers qualifying for tax exemptions is expected to rise significantly; we expect our taxes to double again in ten years as the tax burden is spread among the nonexempt properties and plan not to be here as we won't be able to sell the home with that kind of tax load. Wow! That's quite some property tax. Yikes! We don't have that here. Aside from heating costs, the COL is very reasonable compared to most parts of the country. Seniors here live in either the senior apartments in the county seat - very modest - or small homes...many took their one time exemption per spouse at 55 and sold the family home without capital gains tax on the profit and scaled down. The other issue is the number of family farms going under leaving older farmers without a safety net because they always thought the sale of the farm would be their retirement or that the children would farm it and they would have modest income from that. The farms are selling for practically peanuts compared to what they should be worth. But, I think there was some poor planning. Many of my parents' generation went to work at GM, Ford, Chrysler or their subsidiary support companies at 17 or 18 years of age, contributed modestly to the company pension, retired after 30 years and worked part-time after that. Of course, during those part-time years they weren't saving and by drawing some on their pensions, now with the courts allowing companies to seriously shrink pension pay outs, they are in a bad state with rising food and utilities costs and only SS for supplement. At least that's the admitted case for many of the retirees in this town that we know and it seems to hold true throughout the county. In hindsight, they should have worked full time and contributed to independent savings so they would have more emergency money. Hindsight is always 20/20 though! Many had their entire future riding on company pensions and the company health benefits which have almost been completely eliminated for retirees that have reached 65. They hadn't counted on paying any significant medicare premiums and many are looking at $300.00 or more a month depending on the plan and no prescription coverage at a time in their lives when they taking several meds. It's not uncommon for SS payouts to be $1500.00 or less per month since one spouse was often a SAHM and did not contribute to SS for enough quarters to qualify. I hope you'll be able to get out from under your home. I know homeschoolers who have put their kids in school so mom can find some kind of employment and bank the pay. They've seen what is happening to their parents and are trying to avoid it. It makes me wonder if homeschooling their own will be an option for this generation of students. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMA Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Spouses who have never worked can get up to half of their spouse's benefit amount for Social Security. My MIL received SS since she was eligible around 62 or 63 and she never worked. She is almost 80. There is more to these stories, here and in Korea, than meets the eye. We don't know how well an elderly person gets along with their children, maybe they refused their children's help, maybe the children don't want to help due to reasons unknown to us, etc. We don't know the dynamics of each family. As far as seniors staying in their homes and not afford it, they don't want to leave a home that they worked so hard to have. Not everyone wants to scale down and that's their right. How many of us could afford to help our parents to support them staying in their own home? Not very many. Perhaps in Korea it's the same. The young people may not have anything to send back. As far as pride goes, so many people on this board say they wouldn't seek government support if they need it? Pride is universal. I've had people tell me taking unemployment is shameful. I think we all need to change our attitudes about seeking outside help when needed. It's not just about the elderly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpyTheFrog Posted March 11, 2013 Author Share Posted March 11, 2013 It makes me wonder if homeschooling their own will be an option for this generation of students. That's why DH and I think that long-term homeschooling will wind up being primarily a form of education for the upper-income classes. (Although I know many families on this forum scrape by and make sacrifices for it.) There are only so many years that middle or lower-middle class income can support one parent staying home all/most of the time without having to sacrifice the ability to retire, pay for health care, pay to support aging parents, or pay for more than the cheapest food. There are some extreme Christian groups that teach anything other than homeschooling is sinful. My previous church was almost this extreme, but more than half the men had jobs earning them in the low hundred thousands, so it wasn't a big financial sacrifice for most. However, the materials of the more extreme "leaders" were distributed. I've read about some of Nancy Campbell's followers going without heat (in cold climates) and other minimum standards of living because anything other than homeschooling your dozen plus kids makes you an evil, fake Christian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpyTheFrog Posted March 11, 2013 Author Share Posted March 11, 2013 As far as pride goes, so many people on this board say they wouldn't seek government support if they need it? Pride is universal. I suspect that what most people on this forum really mean is that before resorting to government programs, they would take any work they could find, sell off whatever they could, and then ask family for help. In other words, if they exhausted other options, I really doubt they would choose being cold, hungry, and homeless over getting welfare or food stamps. People actually killing themselves rather than asking their kids for help is pretty extreme. It's far beyond people "just talking" about how they would refuse welfare. I do agree with you, though, that pride is involved whenever someone won't ask for help they need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpyTheFrog Posted March 11, 2013 Author Share Posted March 11, 2013 I'm not understanding why the kids aren't sending for their parents. I thought elder care was also a part of the culture. Maybe the kids are begging the to come to the cities and the parents are refusing. I wondered about that as well. I've certainly read enough stories here about fellow board members whose parents expect help around the house, yet refuse to move to a place where their kids can get jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Are you serious? Do you realize how incredibly bigoted this sounds? The concept of saving face is about way more than pride, and the very idea that "those of Asian descent" need "re-educating," as if their culture is inherently inferior to ours, is really offensive. I can only hope you didn't really mean this the way it sounded... My youngest is a S. Korean adoptee. I sat through hours of parenting classes addressing the culture by experts on the topic. I've read thousands and thousands of pages of the S. Korean adoption experience from birthparents, S. Korean social workers, American social workers dealing with S. Korean adoption system and adult Korean adoptees. You owe Parrothead an public apology for an undeserved public scolding. Ignorant, inaccurate, unfounded stereotypes are wrong. But some unpleasant truths about other cultural norms are not bigotry-they're factual. Some aspects of every culture are good and some are bad. She was simply pointing out that one that increases the suicide rates in the elderly needs to change, just like Dr. Kim spent his life trying to get the S. Korean attitudes toward illegitimate children to change because they are bad. He wasn't bigoted at all, he was a kind preacher who thought all children should be loved and cherished. Dr. Kim, recently deceased, had spent years trying to change this attitude , which is rooted in pride, with Easter Social Welfare Services. He died before that societal change happened on a large scale. S. Korean immigrants to the US tend to be less rigid on this. In S. Korea unwed mothers have the option of aborting (very common even though it's illegal) committing suicide, or placing the baby for adoption in the West. Unwed motherhood is not tolerated socially. Most unwed mothers go into hiding, because if it's found that she conceived an illegitimate child, she is considered unmarriageable and unemployable. Until one generation ago, children without legal fathers were not allowed to enroll in school. Her siblings would also be considered unmarriageable. S. Koreans don't consider adopting children a good thing. Only about 300 a year are adopted and the adoptive parents move and have little or no contact with relatives until enough time has passed to adopt and pass the child off as their biological child to friends, neighbors, and family. The adopted child is never told about being adopted. The children who are adopted in the West, like my daughter, have access to their biological parents' identity when they become adults. Many choose to try to locate their biological parents and half siblings. Very few succeed because if a women who placed her child from adoption and later married, she kept it a secret. IF she has children by a husband who finds out, he can legally divorce her and take the children they have together from her. A friend's sister went to S. Korea and was on a tour that had adults adoptees on it seeking their birthmothers. All were refused contact when the mothers were located-the consequences are too severe. One of the adult adoptees teaching one of the classes in 2005 was 20 years old. When he was 10, his adoptive family had the opportunity to host 10 S. Korean diplomats because of the dad's job. The dad explained he was so excited to have them visit, so his son could meet other people from S. Korea. When the time came for them to arrive, only 5 did. They explained that the other 5 were unwilling to be there because an adopted child from S. Korea was a shameful reflection on them. One couple in our parenting classes, who moved from S. Korea in their teens had to choose between adopting a S. Korean child and losing all contact with their parents who considered it shameful, or remain childless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Are you serious? Do you realize how incredibly bigoted this sounds? The concept of saving face is about way more than pride, and the very idea that "those of Asian descent" need "re-educating," as if their culture is inherently inferior to ours, is really offensive. I can only hope you didn't really mean this the way it sounded... I probably didn't mean it the way you took it. And i said nothing about our culture being better than theirs. You came up with that all on your own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dm379 Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Also in S. Korea there are very few places for the elderly. There are almost no retirement homes or nursing homes because they are expected to live with their children. If they can't stay in their house and their children don't want them then they have nowhere else to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Are you serious? Do you realize how incredibly bigoted this sounds? The concept of saving face is about way more than pride, and the very idea that "those of Asian descent" need "re-educating," as if their culture is inherently inferior to ours, is really offensive. I can only hope you didn't really mean this the way it sounded... Come live in Asia before you freak out. Saving face IS the central philosophy of their culture. It affects every move they make. You can't even imagine how deeply ingrained it is. It's not bigotry. It's a fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgo95 Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Come live in Asia before you freak out. Saving face IS the central philosophy of their culture. It affects every move they make. You can't even imagine how deeply ingrained it is. It's not bigotry. It's a fact. I agree that the notion of honor/face is central to Asian cultures but I believe TXBeth is referring to the need to "re-educate" "prideful" Asians as bigoted. I'm of Asian descent but I grew up mostly in the US, so I agree with those who feel Asian cultures place too great a value on "honor". (I'm so sick of Asian movies that end in suicide; I don't find it to be poignant or beautiful. As an American and a Christian, I want happily-ever-after endings.) Stating that Asians need to be re-educated doesn't sound right, though. Also, face/honor is more than an American view of being prideful (too arrogant, disdainful of others, etc). Asians are intensely conscious of how the society as a whole views one's actions and how one's actions reflect on your family and yourself. Yes, this can be very unhealthy when over-emphasized, but it can also drive positive behaviors. So it's too simplistic to condemn this facet of their culture in such a black-and-white manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Ah, around here the farmers solved that by selling their development rights and negotiating a pretty good discount on property tax. The half-in-jest advice to people that lose their jobs is to plant the garden and get a few goats to manage the remainder of the lawn and put up a Petting zoo sign so as to qualify for the ag exemption of 50%. . Agree, not only is there poor planning there is magical thinking!! It doesn't take a lot of math to figure out that if you work 20 years and stay retired for 40+, someone else has to do a lot of work to pay for all your health care and pension. And if there is more in your age bracket than the younger ones to support you, things are going to get tricky... Yep, agreed! The one thing that they can't do currently is sell for development. The economy is so bad here that new development is rare. But, the reality is many of them really just did not think ahead very far. Again, money management and economics is not something that is being taught well in our country. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBeth Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Come live in Asia before you freak out. Saving face IS the central philosophy of their culture. It affects every move they make. You can't even imagine how deeply ingrained it is. It's not bigotry. It's a fact. I do live in Asia. I agree that the notion of honor/face is central to Asian cultures but I believe TXBeth is referring to the need to "re-educate" "prideful" Asians as bigoted. I'm of Asian descent but I grew up mostly in the US, so I agree with those who feel Asian cultures place too great a value on "honor". (I'm so sick of Asian movies that end in suicide; I don't find it to be poignant or beautiful. As an American and a Christian, I want happily-ever-after endings.) Stating that Asians need to be re-educated doesn't sound right, though. Also, face/honor is more than an American view of being prideful (too arrogant, disdainful of others, etc). Asians are intensely conscious of how the society as a whole views one's actions and how one's actions reflect on your family and yourself. Yes, this can be very unhealthy when over-emphasized, but it can also drive positive behaviors. So it's too simplistic to condemn this facet of their culture in such a black-and-white manner. This is it exactly. Of course there are negative ramifications to aspects of any culture, including the ones referred to in this thread. But to simplify the entirety of a shame culture / saving face by equating it with sinful pride is simply not right. The culture is much more complex than that. I am sorry, though, Parrothead, that I was so harsh. I was about to go to bed, was surprised by the comment, and dashed off a reply without really thinking it through well enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sewingmama Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Also in S. Korea there are very few places for the elderly. There are almost no retirement homes or nursing homes because they are expected to live with their children. If they can't stay in their house and their children don't want them then they have nowhere else to go. It isn't always the case that their children "don't want them". Often they just don't have room for them. Housing in SK is tiny ....most people live in apartments that would fit into an American loungeroom. Most have only one or two rooms. Koreans rarely have more then two children - ...the ONLY time I saw couples with three was if two of them were twins. The parents generally go to their DIL and son's. So if your daughter already has a set of parents living with her as well as two kids there just isn't room for the second set of parents. If you have a son you are usually guaranteed a place to stay but if you only have daughters you might be in trouble. It is becoming more socially acceptable to have two daughters in Korea but and this is strictly my own observation ... the most common type of family in South Korea seemed to be a boy and a girl. There were just too many family's with this combination for it to have occurred "naturally" KWIM. Everyone works in SK.... doing whatever job they can get. Rubbish collection was generally done by the elderly. Its awfully sad to see 70 year olds pulling carts behind them and collecting rubbish. They dont get to enjoy a retirement. If I was physically unable to work and my family couldnt care for me I would commit suicide too. Often it is seen as the "right thing to do" so as not to be a burden to your children. It doesn't mean at all that your kids dont want you. Economics, housing size and family size make it impossible for some familys to care for their aging parents. I don't think I came across any Korean who wouldn't look after their parents if they could do it...it's ingrained in their culture to show respect to their parents....even if they hate them and their parents make their lives a misery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 I agree that the notion of honor/face is central to Asian cultures but I believe TXBeth is referring to the need to "re-educate" "prideful" Asians as bigoted. I'm of Asian descent but I grew up mostly in the US, so I agree with those who feel Asian cultures place too great a value on "honor". (I'm so sick of Asian movies that end in suicide; I don't find it to be poignant or beautiful. As an American and a Christian, I want happily-ever-after endings.) Stating that Asians need to be re-educated doesn't sound right, though. Also, face/honor is more than an American view of being prideful (too arrogant, disdainful of others, etc). Asians are intensely conscious of how the society as a whole views one's actions and how one's actions reflect on your family and yourself. Yes, this can be very unhealthy when over-emphasized, but it can also drive positive behaviors. So it's too simplistic to condemn this facet of their culture in such a black-and-white manner. I agree that it has positive implications at times. The children at my school are very conscious of pleasing their parents and not bringing shame to their family through their actions. I personally think that is a good mindset to have (as long as it is not abused). It is different than the American notion that children don't owe their parents or family anything and we should all make decisions based on what you feel is right regardless of what others may think. The correct position lies somewhere in the middle. I have seen, however, how saving face can be everything from annoying to destructive. For instance, if you ask a local here for directions, they will give you bad directions rather than just admit that they don't know where the place is. This happens 99% of the time. They will lie to you about any number of things rather than admit they don't know the answer or rather than tell you an answer that might make you upset. That is annoying. In terms of destructive, they will put their 5 year old in hours and hours of evening and weekend tutoring in order to keep up with the other kids in class or hopefully even move to the head of the class. The pressure on young children to outperform their peers academically, musically, athletically, etc., is absolutely suffocating these kids. The pressure on the mothers to produce a child that is superior to all other children is suffocating. The level of competition is like nothing I have ever seen. Again, the correct position lies somewhere in the middle. Perhaps "re-educating" is not the right term to use. I get that. But I have son who was adopted from Korea. I put him in language classes here to learn Korean and he was ostracized by other students for not being "truly" Korean. S. Korea is limiting the number of Korean children that can be adopted abroad because it is shameful to them, but I have yet to see a real plan for what will happen to those children now. Will they just remain in an orphanage? Will the mothers opt for abortion now? A change in attitude toward adopted children is needed. Is that "re-educating" them? Enlightening them? Influencing their viewpoint? I don't know what to call it but it is needed. Something that is culturally acceptable is not AUTOMATICALLY to be seen as a good thing. It might be culturally acceptable to look down on adopted children in S. Korea but that doesn't make it right. Lots of things used to be culturally acceptable in America that we have since changed our views about. Were we "re-educated"? I don't know what to call it other than necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 http://www.nytimes.c...cides.html?_r=0 Poverty among the elderly has led to the elderly suicide rate quadrupling since 2000. People think it's because so many parents spent all their extra money on their childrens' cram schools and extra tutoring, while saving nothing for retirement. In turn, they expected their children to pay for their retirement, but many children have moved to the cities to find jobs. Most of the elderly left behind have no pensions (government or private) and are ineligible for welfare unless their kids are unemployed. The article specifically mentioned that the culture of "saving face" leads to many elderly people being too ashamed to ask their family (or government) for help, so they kill themselves instead. (This whole "saving face" culture sounds like a huge pride problem to me, an outsider.) If I am not mistaken, this is the country in which some are living in stacked up cages because they can't afford apartments. It's awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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