Courses called "Physical Science" in high school

[EKS]

This year my son's school has required 9th and 10th graders to take a course called "Physical Science." This school is a supposedly rigorous college prep school and they even offer the IB Diploma Program in 11th and 12th grades. I have read on here several times that physical science is generally considered a middle school course and that colleges aren't impressed when they see it on a transcript.

 

The local public high school (considered one of the "best" in the state) has two tracks in science: The one for strong students and the one for not-so-strong students. The strong students take biology in 9th grade (which has Algebra I as a prerequisite) and the others take physical science. My point here is that this feeling that physical science is for weaker students is confirmed by this sort of tracking.

 

I tried doing a search and didn't come up with anything, though I know it's been discussed. So, what is the consensus on physical science in high school and what do you base your opinion on? Any links or other specific information would be most appreciated--I'm about to launch a campaign to make physical science go away at my son's school.

[lisabees]

In our local high school, physical science is a standard 9th grade course. 10th is biology, 11th is chemistry, 12th is physics. This is the college track, if you want to call it that. The school has block scheduling, so it's easy to double up and take more difficult courses, if you're headed towards a STEM career.

 

I will likely not follow this schedule with my homeschooler, but, to me, it seems like a fair progression in high school.

 

ETA: I read your post more carefully. Are you saying your son's school requires physical science in BOTH 10th and 11th grades? Are they taking any other science simultaneously? And they do they truly mean physical science with little math?

[SarahW]

Could it be an alternative name for a Geology course?

 

Geology is a good science + lab class for non-sciencey people. It deals with tangible things everyone can see (that's what I liked about it - I was a History major).

 

But, Geology, especially a good in-depth course, is necessary for Engineering majors. A good STEM-based high school should offer a decent course like that. I'd look into what they are covering. Types of rocks and erosion aren't necessarily simple.

[elegantlion]

Here's a pdf of graduation requirements from our state department of education

 

Here's the requirement for science, bolding mine:

 

 

Science

At least three units (not including general science) selected from biology, chemistry, or

physics, one of which is a laboratory course.

 

 

Interpretive Notes: Examples of courses acceptable toward the three units: Botany,

zoology, anatomy and physiology, biology, chemistry, and physics. Applications in

Biology/Chemistry and Principles of Technology may be counted. Life science, physical

science, and earth science may be counted only if it can be demonstrated that they are

taught at the high school level with a rigor comparable to biology, chemistry, or physics.

 

 

Here is a recent news article about a bill proposing student must take science and math their senior year. I don't know what your state requirements are, but I could foresee complaints about student having to take 4 years of science. Just posting fyi, no real formed opinion, plus I still on my first cup of coffee.

[snowbeltmom]

Up until a year ago, my high school required all 9th graders to take physical science. Last year they changed their requirements and those students who have had Algebra I in 8th grade now can take biology instead of physical science.

[Mom22ns]

Many high schools still offer Physical Science or ICP. Some still require it. If it is being offered by a public school or a private school with a good reputation, I think colleges assume it is a high school level course and may even be the most rigorous course offered. That isn't a problem.

 

However, when a homeschooler puts Physical Science on their transcript colleges have no way of knowing if it was an 8th grade level Physical Science (like Apologia) or if it is a high school level class with Chemistry and Physics being taught and Algebra being required.

[mom2bee]

Many of the public universities and community colleges in my state offer a class called Introductory Physical Science. It is a class for non-majors, and fulfills the general education requirement for science. Its typically a survey class. It starts off with some basic physics, and I believe it covers on the basics of chemistry, geology, astronomy, biology. ALL of the schools in my city use this text book. Its the same one that Derek Owen uses, I believe...

 

I imagine that a highschool course by the same name would cover roughly the same material, the main difference would be the pace at which the material is covered.

[mom2bee]

In my area the sequence was 9th- Earth Science, 10th-Biology, 11-Physical Science 12 was option. I don't think that you HAD to take Physical Science in 11th. I think you could have a choice between whatever the options were for the school.

[swimmermom3]

Kay, I wonder if the use of Physical Science courses is, in part, a geographical trend. Our local high schools do not offer Physical Science courses. The top private high schools in the area with tuition ranging from $12,000 - $26,000 per year do not offer Physical Science courses. Choate Rosemary Hall, which is kind of a decent school on the opposite side of the coast, doesn't offer Physical Science courses either.

 

I would be curious to see if any of the top-ranked colleges list Physical Science as one of their recommended courses.

[lisabees]

I checked our school's website. My original post was incorrect. Physical Science in 8th grade. Earth Science in 9th.

[swimmermom3]

Could it be an alternative name for a Geology course?

 

Geology is a good science + lab class for non-sciencey people. It deals with tangible things everyone can see (that's what I liked about it - I was a History major).

 

But, Geology, especially a good in-depth course, is necessary for Engineering majors. A good STEM-based high school should offer a decent course like that. I'd look into what they are covering. Types of rocks and erosion aren't necessarily simple.

 

 

Actually, the College Board does include Earth/space science in its recommendations:

 

Science

 

Science teaches you how to think analytically and how to apply theories to reality. Colleges want to see that you’ve taken at least three years of laboratory science classes. A good combination includes a year of each of the following:

• Biology

• Chemistry or physics

• Earth/space science

 

Schools that are more competitive expect four years of lab science courses, which you may be able to get by taking advanced classes in these same areas.

[Julie in MN]

Many high schools still offer Physical Science or ICP. Some still require it. If it is being offered by a public school or a private school with a good reputation, I think colleges assume it is a high school level course and may even be the most rigorous course offered. That isn't a problem.

 

However, when a homeschooler puts Physical Science on their transcript colleges have no way of knowing if it was an 8th grade level Physical Science (like Apologia) or if it is a high school level class with Chemistry and Physics being taught and Algebra being required.

 

Actually, in our area, some of the college-prep public schools use 9th grade Physics (Physical Science or Conceptual Physics type courses) for just the opposite reasons. Instead, the philosophy of physical science first is -- that it makes the most logical sense to understand some of physical science, and build on that for chemistry and then biology (or often biology is before chemistry simply due to the math requirements in chem). There is no pretension that 9th grade "Physics" or Physical Science is the same as 12th grade physics, nor is there sheepish hiding of non-chemistry and math-based physics as if it were sneaking in a childish credit. It's simply a different philosophy about how best to teach science. Here are the syllabi for the regular and advanced 9th grade physics (physical science is what I'd call it, or at least conceptual physics) at one of the most college-prep public schools in our state, just to see the general topics (note that teacher-speak makes it all sound so very academic):

https://sites.google.com/a/apps.edina.k12.mn.us/depies-physics/sylabus-for-course-2

https://sites.google.com/a/apps.edina.k12.mn.us/depies-physics/syllabus

 

 

"Physics" in 12th grade is based on knowledge of chemistry and math, and is an elective (AP Physics), at that particular school.

[Dana]

Our state has a physical science requirement as a high school credit. State universities have it listed as an expectation on their list of requirements for admission. It was 9th grade science when I took it. Looks like it can't count as a lab credit though here.

The course I took was a good one and was really solid.

 

My current plan is to have my son take a physical science course for high school credit in 8th grade. Then I've got 4 years still for him to do more lab science.

[swimmermom3]

Actually, in our area, some of the college-prep public schools use 9th grade Physics (Physical Science or Conceptual Physics type courses) for just the opposite reasons. Instead, the philosophy of physical science first is -- that it makes the most logical sense to understand some of physical science, and build on that for chemistry and then biology (or often biology is before chemistry simply due to the math requirements in chem). There is no pretension that 9th grade "Physics" or Physical Science is the same as 12th grade physics, nor is there sheepish hiding of non-chemistry and math-based physics as if it were sneaking in a childish credit. It's simply a different philosophy about how best to teach science. Here are the syllabi for the regular and advanced 9th grade physics (physical science is what I'd call it, or at least conceptual physics) at one of the most college-prep public schools in our state, just to see the general topics (note that teacher-speak makes it all sound so very academic):

https://sites.google...us-for-course-2

https://sites.google...hysics/syllabus

 

 

"Physics" in 12th grade is based on knowledge of chemistry and math, and is an elective (AP Physics), at that particular school.

 

 

Julie,

 

By my limited understanding, the two courses you have listed are "conceptual physics" courses. Our school moved to that as the freshman science course, to be followed by chemistry, biology, and an AP course for the serious student.

 

I don't believe this is the same as a "Physical Science" course. The Physical Science course usually covers the basic concepts of the four physical sciences: physics, chemistry, earth science, and astronomy. Think Apologia's Physical Science course, or Holt's (Saxon) Physical Science for Homeschool. On the other hand, BJU's Physical Science course looks to contain conceptual physics only.

 

And I think on one of the other threads that recently discussed this issue, the folks that put out the DIVE curriculum advocate an Integrated Physics and Chemistry course with the following explanation:

 

Due to the heavy emphasis on chemistry in today's high school biology courses, most colleges now require Integrated Physics and Chemistry in 9th grade instead of Physical Science. Colleges changed the name of the requirement because many physical science publishers were publishing Physical Science texts that were really an Earth/Space type science. These texts lack the chemistry and physics concepts required to succeed in upper level science courses. DIVE IPC meets these new requirements, providing excellent preparation for biology, chemistry, and physics courses.

 

I think my concern with putting "Physical Science" on a high school transcript has a lot to do with the confusion surrounding the name and what that actually means for the content. I suppose if your local schools use it for ninth grade, then your state colleges would be used to seeing it on transcripts. I'll admit it; the ambiguity makes me uncomfortable.

[Julie in MN]

Lisa,

I understand the idea that "conceptual physics" might be different from "physical science." Yes, Apologia includes earth science plus physics (forces, i.e. gravitational, electromagnetic, etc) in their "physical science course." (By the way, Apologia doesn't cover Chem and Anatomy in Physical Science - that's in their General Science.) Hewitt Conceptual Physics focuses mostly on the forces alone. But the difference just isn't enough to outlaw one from high school credit, in my (trying to be humble) opinion?

 

Or, you could go to the school district we live in -- which has a more traditional track. College-bound kids do Biology in 9th, then Chem, then Physics. However, currently they are using Physics By Inquiry for 11th grade physics, and an online description says, "step-by-step introduction to physics and the physical sciences." It just doesn't sound all that different still, and this is 11th grade. (Yet, even with such a similarly lowly "11th grade physics" course, my oldest son ended up an engineer anyways, with honors and all, hired before he graduated, I just cant see the harm done.)

 

I do want to be honest when I name our homeschool courses, because I do agree that the names carry connotations. However, curiously, at the "good" school I mentioned, they just call a course "Physics" even though they are using Hewitt Conceptual Physics -- even I probably wouldn't call it that. But I guess they figure "Physics" in 9th grade obviously doesn't mean "12th grade AP physics"? Not sure what to think about how all this should affect what I call my son's 9th grade science (2nd half of Apologia, Teaching Company, biography of how a couple discoveries were made) - I was going with Physical Science, and his current colleges accepted that.

 

My main concern is that paranoid homeschoolers realize that high school credit can be (and is) given for many different sorts of "physics" type courses. At my house, I don't believe in skimming by and doing stuff that's too easy for the student, but I do believe real learning can occur with all different sorts of materials. And for the typical homeschool parent/teacher, as well as with some homeschooled kids, maybe more long-term learning will occur with a text called Physical Science, Conceptual Physics, or Physics By Inquiry, especially in the early part of high school -- so the parent shouldn't feel afraid to choose those materials for high school if they think the best learning will occur.

 

Julie

[Night Elf]

I had started my own thread but wanted to chime in here. I just talked to my dd's school counselor and she said the Physical Science course is an introduction to chemistry and physics. Her transcript would look fine if she went from Honors Biology to Physical Science, to Chemistry and then Physics. If she wants to take Chemistry as a 10th grader, she should not take Physical Science after that because at that point it does look like a step down. So that's my school district's take on it, fwiw.

[MyThreeSons]

Physical Science is required in my state. In fact, it is one of the courses which has a mandatory state-wide standardized EOC (end of course) test that must be passed.

 

I have read that many colleges won't count Physical Science as a lab course; many colleges require at least two, sometimes three, sciences with lab.

[swimmermom3]

Hey Julie,

 

You make some awesome points, as usual. :D

 

And the last thing I would every want to do is scare a homeschool parent when it comes to science, but I do think it's important that we have this conversation. As we have seen, there are varying degrees of disparity between the content of those courses and where they are accepted, expected, or rejected. If I understand the situation correctly, if my child wants to attend a school where chemistry, physics, and biology are expected, then if I use Physical Science for any one year of high school, then I MUST take three more years of science that cover physics, biology, and chemistry, right? Now, it's not a big deal if the college requirement is three years of science with 2 labs to have one of those classes be Physical Science as long as I have two of the other three?

 

I want homeschool parents to know what they are getting so there are no nasty surprises that senior year.

 

If someone takes an Integrated Physics and Chemistry Course, would they only need a semester additionally of Physics or Chemistry to meet the requirements?

 

I wish Kai would check back in. In her case, I wonder if her son would get a year of Chemistry and Physics each with that two-year program, or do they get a semester each of physics, earth science, chemistry, and astronomy?

[EKS]

 

I wish Kai would check back in. In her case, I wonder if her son would get a year of Chemistry and Physics each with that two-year program, or do they get a semester each of physics, earth science, chemistry, and astronomy?

 

How very interesting--I was so put off by the name "physical science" for a high school course, I just assumed that it was a mix of physics and chemistry (because most physical science courses I've seen seem to conform to this model). Imagine my surprise when I actually looked at the course description and found a description of...conceptual physics! What's really odd is that all of the kids who are currently taking the course had conceptual physics in 8th grade!

 

I actually don't mind conceptual physics in 9th. Now all I need to do is get them to rename the course, which I think will be *much* easier!

[Julie in MN]

And the last thing I would every want to do is scare a homeschool parent when it comes to science, but I do think it's important that we have this conversation.

\

Agreed, good conversation.

 

If I understand the situation correctly, if my child wants to attend a school where chemistry, physics, and biology are expected, then if I use Physical Science for any one year of high school, then I MUST take three more years of science that cover physics, biology, and chemistry, right?

You know, being that the schools near me call some things Physics that are more conceptual in nature, I'm not totally sure on that. Well, you're right, if the course isn't a full year of Physics (e.g. Physical Science with physics + earth science), then that for sure doesn't seem to meet the requirement for a full year of high school Physics.

 

However, a full year of non-math-based, conceptual or physical science-oriented, "9th grade Physics" seems like it would meet the requirement from what I can tell. It's just a different philosophy -- instead of the Physics being the most challenging of the three, likely the Chemistry will end up being the most difficult, math-based science course, since it's taken in the later grade. That should look clear on a transcript, I would think.

 

Julie

[swimmermom3]

 

How very interesting--I was so put off by the name "physical science" for a high school course, I just assumed that it was a mix of physics and chemistry (because most physical science courses I've seen seem to conform to this model). Imagine my surprise when I actually looked at the course description and found a description of...conceptual physics! What's really odd is that all of the kids who are currently taking the course had conceptual physics in 8th grade!

 

I actually don't mind conceptual physics in 9th. Now all I need to do is get them to rename the course, which I think will be *much* easier!

 

If I were them, I would be most happy to change that course name for you, Kai. :D

 

If it makes you feel any better, I mentioned to regentrude that ds was taking STEM Physics this year and STEM Chemistry next year at the school. She wanted to know what STEM Physics is? Good question. :o

 

My assumption would appear to be incorrect. I am only waiting for the final confirmation on that before I finish ordering my chemistry materials for next year and to heck with the school.

 

Would you have guessed that STEM Physics is regular conceptual physics and that the course labeled "physics" is kind of a remedial physics. Same for chemistry.

 

This course name issue is important. :tongue_smilie: