Help with math

[Pammy]

I am afraid I have ruined my child's chance of getting into College because she is so behind in Math. We have switched so many times, had tutors, and she still has trouble. She was a late reader, and is a kinesthetic learner. I stuck with MUS even though others said it wouldn't be helpful in the Upper grades, and then after testing her and seeing the results (three grade levels below), I started the switching game.

 

I really like the concept of Singapore Math, but she doesn't. Right now all I am requiring for Math is to read a chapter in LOF.

 

You would think that I would have learned by now (this is my 4th). I got so worried with my oldest son who loved math and started hating it when he got to high school that I put him in public school so he could be challenged and he is doing great. This is not an option for my dd. I hate that we are in this position now. My youngest son is also a bit of a challenge, and complains about any written work. Uggh.

[wapiti]

Not even tutors were successful and she's three grade levels behind and was a late reader? I'd be thinking in the direction of possible LDs and/or vision issues (which can often be fixed!). The sooner you figure out what is going on, the sooner you'd be able to make appropriate choices.

 

Whatever you choose, I'd require a whole lot more than mere reading in the meantime - at least some sort of practice calculating to keep up fluency with facts, etc. If you want specific curriculum recommendations, it might be helpful to describe specifically what happened with the various math programs that you have already tried.

 

:grouphug: I'm sure you haven't affected her college chances yet. Middle school is the perfect time to catch up.

[lisabees]

My second struggled in math when I brought him home in 7th grade. We had success with Math Mammoth. I believe he started with 4th or 5th grade. He ended up returning to ps ahead in math.

 

Another option would be an online tutor (or a mix of the two). We had a great one through Live Online Math. Their live classes may be equally as wonderful. They were extremely professional and accessible.

 

How comfortable are you with math? I have found that my excitement determines everything. For math, we have fun watching Vi Hart and Secrets of Mental Math through Great Courses (

is another of his videos). There's a great documentary called Between the Folds. Expose your dd to the fun aspects of math.

 

I am not sure how old your dd is, but I LOVE Education Unboxed videos. It totally changed my dd9's feelings about math. Games are a great way to practice skills in a fun way. Phase10 is a favorite here, as well as many others.

 

Best wishes to you. Your dd will be fine!

[kiana]

How old is she, where did she test, and where was she in MUS at the time?

[Pammy]

Thanks all. She is 11, tested at 9 while doing MUS Gamma. Since then, we have tried Saxon 54, BJU 5, TT 6, Singapore 4, and are just doing LOF Fractions now. (She took Stanford test that year and placed in second grade, but this year she took TX standardized state test and placed in 3rd grade).

[PachiSusan]

 

 

I am not sure how old your dd is, but I LOVE Education Unboxed videos. It totally changed my dd9's feelings about math. Games are a great way to practice skills in a fun way. Phase10 is a favorite here, as well as many others.

 

 

butting in to say "THANK YOU!!!!" for this link. My jaw dropped at some of these videos and I think they're a big ticket for my math reluctant 4th grader!!!!

[Mandy in TN]

MUS has a sequence that is very different from the traditional US sequence. Knowing this and understanding where MUS was going, I would not have felt like that results of one standardized test were very telling regarding my child's mastery of the math material that she had covered thus far.

 

What is done is done. My main advice now is to stop switching curriculum. :D

 

Just pick whatever program you feel like you were able to instruct from the best and stick with it. Ignore the test and instead become comfortable in the knowledge that she is moving forward and within her abilities is mastering the material presented to her. In order to move forward, it is imperative that you meet her where she is now and work daily and diligently and even then she can only move as quickly as she can master the material.

 

She may not be a math major in college, but you never can tell maybe she will surprise you. OTOH, even if she needs to take remedial/ developmental math at the community college first, there are many degrees that only need the one semester of math required in the university general studies requirements. She a may end up taking College Algebra for liberal arts majors and nothing else. :)

 

HTH-

Mandy

[Scarlett]

MUS has a sequence that is very different from the traditional US sequence. Knowing this and understanding where MUS was going, I would not have felt like that results of one standardized test were very telling regarding my child's mastery of the math material that she had covered thus far.

 

What is done is done. My main advice now is to stop switching curriculum. :D

 

Just pick whatever program you feel like you were able to instruct from the best and stick with it. Ignore the test and instead become comfortable in the knowledge that she is moving forward and within her abilities is mastering the material presented to her. In order to move forward, it is imperative that you meet her where she is now and work daily and diligently and even then she can only move as quickly as she can master the material.

 

She may not be a math major in college, but you never can tell maybe she will surprise you. OTOH, even if she needs to take remedial/ developmental math at the community college first, there are many degrees that only need the one semester of math required in the university general studies requirements. She a may end up taking College Algebra for liberal arts majors and nothing else. :)

 

HTH-

Mandy

 

 

And it is highly doubtful she would have done any better in public school.

[kiana]

I would pick the one that YOU felt she was learning from the best out of all that you've tried, go back to it, put her where she places and move forward at HER speed. I would also take her opinion into account, although I would not give her the sole responsibility. Give the chapter tests that come with that curriculum and worry less about the standardized tests. Quit changing -- after this many curricula, you're not going to find a miracle.

 

I'm not sure how you felt she was doing with MUS, but part of not doing well on the standardized test may also have come from the seriously atypical course sequence. I would expect someone who's gone through zeta to be ready for most standard pre-algebra curricula, and someone who's done pre-algebra to be ready for a highly rigorous pre-algebra or a standard algebra curriculum, but switching before that can cause (as you found) serious issues.

 

ETA: I also agree with Scarlett.

[letsplaymath]

Not even tutors were successful and she's three grade levels behind and was a late reader? I'd be thinking in the direction of possible LDs and/or vision issues (which can often be fixed!). The sooner you figure out what is going on, the sooner you'd be able to make appropriate choices. ... I'm sure you haven't affected her college chances yet. Middle school is the perfect time to catch up.

 

If you think there's a possibility of an LD or vision issue, that would definitely be something to check into. But if those are not an issue, then wapiti is right: Middle school is a perfect time to catch up. She's still young and has plenty of time to learn. With some of my children, I didn't even start teaching formal arithmetic until about your daughter's age.

 

...She took Stanford test that year and placed in second grade, but this year she took TX standardized state test and placed in 3rd grade.

 

Standardized tests are not placement tests. They cannot tell you at what level your daughter should be studying. They aren't designed that way. The "placement" they give is only vague and general, not really indicative of her grade level but just a way of comparing her performance on that particular test with the performance of other students. There can be a LOT of different reasons for a poor placement!

 

MUS has a sequence that is very different from the traditional US sequence. Knowing this and understanding where MUS was going, I would not have felt like that results of one standardized test were very telling regarding my child's mastery of the math material that she had covered thus far. What is done is done. My main advice now is to stop switching curriculum. :D Just pick whatever program you feel like you were able to instruct from the best and stick with it. Ignore the test and instead become comfortable in the knowledge that she is moving forward and within her abilities is mastering the material presented to her. In order to move forward, it is imperative that you meet her where she is now and work daily and diligently ...

 

Mandy has given you some good advice. Arithmetic is the same, no matter what math program you use, just the order of presentation is different. So pick a math program that YOU feel comfortable teaching from, and then work through it at your daughter's pace.

 

I would add one thing: DON'T expect her to work on her own with math. This is something you both need to tackle together, and I strongly recommend taking the "Buddy Math" approach of sharing the work load:

• Take turns doing the problems and turn the math lesson into a discussion time.
  
• Talk about how you decided what to do first, and what to do next.
  
• Talk about how you figured out a math fact (like 7x8) that had slipped from your memory.
  
• Talk about your struggles, what you find easy or hard, and where you tend to get confused.
  

The main thing I would be concerned about at this point is: Has your daughter picked up a negative attitude? Does she feel like she's "stupid" at math? Most of elementary/middle school math is arithmetic, and most of arithmetic is hard and pretty boring. I recommend splitting your scheduled math time into two chunks and only spending half of it on your math curriculum. Use the rest of the time to explore non-schoolish mathematical things your daughter might enjoy:

• Set online game
  
• Taxicab Treasure Hunt
  
• Geometric Patterns
  
• Logic puzzles
  
• etc......
  

[PachiSusan]

 

I would add one thing: DON'T expect her to work on her own with math. This is something you both need to tackle together, and I strongly recommend taking the "Buddy Math" approach of sharing the work load:

• Take turns doing the problems and turn the math lesson into a discussion time.
  
• Talk about how you decided what to do first, and what to do next.
  
• Talk about how you figured out a math fact (like 7x8) that had slipped from your memory.
  
• Talk about your struggles, what you find easy or hard, and where you tend to get confused.
  

The main thing I would be concerned about at this point is: Has your daughter picked up a negative attitude? Does she feel like she's "stupid" at math? Most of elementary/middle school math is arithmetic, and most of arithmetic is hard and pretty boring. I recommend splitting your scheduled math time into two chunks and only spending half of it on your math curriculum. Use the rest of the time to explore non-schoolish mathematical things your daughter might enjoy:

• Set online game
  
• Taxicab Treasure Hunt
  
• Geometric Patterns
  
• Logic puzzles
  
• etc......
  

 

This is amazing advice. I mean it. Game changing for me - especially your steps to work as a buddy!!! My daughter thinks she's stupid. She SO is not. She just has let it defeat her. I have to work on helping her see that she is stronger and smarter than this!

[mom31257]

Thanks all. She is 11, tested at 9 while doing MUS Gamma. Since then, we have tried Saxon 54, BJU 5, TT 6, Singapore 4, and are just doing LOF Fractions now. (She took Stanford test that year and placed in second grade, but this year she took TX standardized state test and placed in 3rd grade).

 

When you did TT, did you do an actual placement test to choose 6th grade level? If so, I am curious about her testing at 3rd grade level. I wonder if she freezes up on testing or if she just isn't retaining what she's learning. I would also be curious which of those she liked the best.

[nmariec23]

 

 

If you think there's a possibility of an LD or vision issue, that would definitely be something to check into. But if those are not an issue, then wapiti is right: Middle school is a perfect time to catch up. She's still young and has plenty of time to learn. With some of my children, I didn't even start teaching formal arithmetic until about your daughter's age.

 

 

 

 

 

I would add one thing: DON'T expect her to work on her own with math. This is something you both need to tackle together, and I strongly recommend taking the "Buddy Math" approach of sharing the work load:

• Take turns doing the problems and turn the math lesson into a discussion time.

• Talk about how you decided what to do first, and what to do next.

• Talk about how you figured out a math fact (like 7x8) that had slipped from your memory.

• Talk about your struggles, what you find easy or hard, and where you tend to get confused.

 

The main thing I would be concerned about at this point is: Has your daughter picked up a negative attitude? Does she feel like she's "stupid" at math? Most of elementary/middle school math is arithmetic, and most of arithmetic is hard and pretty boring. I recommend splitting your scheduled math time into two chunks and only spending half of it on your math curriculum. Use the rest of the time to explore non-schoolish mathematical things your daughter might enjoy:

• Set online game

• Taxicab Treasure Hunt

• Geometric Patterns

• Logic puzzles

• etc......

 

 

 

This is really excellent advice. I LOVE the idea of Buddy math!

[lisabees]

Don't forget to check out Denise's site, letsplaymath! Absolutely wonderful. :)

[Pammy]

 

When you did TT, did you do an actual placement test to choose 6th grade level? If so, I am curious about her testing at 3rd grade level. I wonder if she freezes up on testing or if she just isn't retaining what she's learning. I would also be curious which of those she liked the best.

 

 

Yes, I did. She got 7 right, so she was two away from actually placing into TT 6. I think she likes TT most, but she doesn't like doing it independently. That is why I paid so much for it. I have so many other programs that I could use. I know that I need to just be consistent. I am not very patient with math. I actually loved math until 9th grade Honors Geometry. Then I started hating it. I really had to work hard to finish college math.

[mom31257]

 

Yes, I did. She got 7 right, so she was two away from actually placing into TT 6. I think she likes TT most, but she doesn't like doing it independently. That is why I paid so much for it. I have so many other programs that I could use. I know that I need to just be consistent. I am not very patient with math. I actually loved math until 9th grade Honors Geometry. Then I started hating it. I really had to work hard to finish college math.

 

Picking a curriculum you can both live with and sticking with it is key to not having gaps. Each one has a unique scope and sequence. If she liked TT and you feel like she learned well from it, then I would buckle down and do it with her. Does she do fine if you are just in the room, or does she want you interacting with her during the lessons or problems? Perhaps you could come up with a compromise such as she goes through the lesson on her own, then she comes to you with questions. Then you could be there for her to do some of the first problems and she finishes the problem set on her own. I don't use TT, so I'm hoping this is how it would go.

[KathyBC]

With TT, I sit through the lesson, the practice problems and the first couple lesson questions (those true/false questions can have tricky wording). Then I leave. If they need me, they can call me. The odd day, they need me to sit there for the whole time. The odd day, they don't need me to sit there for any of it.

[Pammy]

Thanks, all. Part of the problem is I am not able to sit with her through the lessons, as I work from home and am also a student. So, I guess I need to just sleep less to have more hours in my day.

[Mom22ns]

Thanks, all. Part of the problem is I am not able to sit with her through the lessons, as I work from home and am also a student. So, I guess I need to just sleep less to have more hours in my day.

 

 

Very few kids can learn math without a teacher. Not just a video or a computer program, but a teacher. If you can't sit with her for math, find someone who can. Use a live online class, a tutor something. I understand what you are saying about working and not enough hours in the day - I get it, really. That said, math is foundational. She needs a teacher. If I only had time to teach one subject each day, I would teach reading first and when that was mastered, I'd teach math. They are the two keys to learning and you just can't let her go on without it.

 

As others have said, pick a program and get consistent. Invest the time, she needs you on this.

:grouphug:

[kiana]

Very few kids can learn math without a teacher. Not just a video or a computer program, but a teacher. If you can't sit with her for math, find someone who can. Use a live online class, a tutor something. I understand what you are saying about working and not enough hours in the day - I get it, really. That said, math is foundational. She needs a teacher. If I only had time to teach one subject each day, I would teach reading first and when that was mastered, I'd teach math. They are the two keys to learning and you just can't let her go on without it.

 

As others have said, pick a program and get consistent. Invest the time, she needs you on this.

:grouphug:

 

 

This is very kindly said, and I agree 100%.

 

I would cut every subject except reading (assuming reading is still not mastered), if I had to, to make sure math was getting done and done right.