Latin, Grammar Stage, and Educational Philosophy

[skimomma]

How is that for a title?

 

My 4th grade 9yo is working through Latin For Children B. We did A last year. This question is especially for people using LFC but advice from anyone doing Latin with a grammar stage child would be appreciated.

 

I did not learn Latin growing up but convinced myself to do it with my dd because I feel it helps with Language Arts and will be an aid in learning other languages later on. It has been going well. We like LFC and so far my dd has a good attitude about Latin. My original plan was to begin another foreign language next year (5th grade) while continuing Latin.

 

LFC includes a weekly history reader with semi-complicated translations to apply what they are learning. I understand that in a classroom setting, this exercse is meant to be done in groups with a lot of help. In our reality, my dd really struggles with them. I allow her to look up words, which she needs to frequently due to forgetting past vocabulary or simply because it is a word she has never seen before. However, I am also finding that she is not following the most basic of rules and must be reminded every single week. Like finding the verb and determining tense. Or finding the case of each noun to determine its role (and therefore order) in the sentance. I am really holding her hand here and it seems to be getting worse as we progress. Again, this in theory does not concern me too much as I know the reader is really not meant to be a totally independent exercise.

 

What is worrying me is her lack of retention. When we get to these forgotten steps, she often cannot recite some of the older chants. Especially pronouns, 3rd declension endings, and irregular verbs conjucations. Past vocabulary is also a problem. Anytime we go to review old vocabulary words more than a few weeks old, she often has forgotten them or gotten them mixed up.

 

So that got me thinking.... What is the goal here? In the grammar stage, should I expect full retention as though she is learning a conversational language she will be expected to use in real life? Or is my goal more like the first swipe at history, exposure, practice, and general familiarity? I am toying with stopping LFC and going back to try to hammer everything into memory. But I don't want to do that if it is expecting too much of a 4th grader or if that is not even the point of Latin at this stage.

 

Which got me thinking about adding a language, probably Spanish, next year. Am I setting us up for a retention failure? I thought memorization and retention was supposed to be easier for younger kids. Won't this just get worse as she gets older?

 

Please share your goals so I can better form my own!

 

Thanks!

[MomatHWTK]

My goal is general familiarity, so we aren't delving nearly that deep into Latin. I like the program we have because it requires the student to use logical analysis and teaches a little Latin, but our program doesn't require any translations, etc. at this point.

[Tress]

I'm not an expert by any means, so take my opinion for what it's worth, but I would not do Latin just for exposure. A modern foreign language, maybe (probably not), but certainly not Latin. I feel that would be a waste of time. Children all over the world are learning foreign languages, truly learning them, so it can be done :D.

 

I would slow down and review vocab and grammar more often. Are you using a system for reviewing? We are using Anki (a computerbased flashcard program) so I do not have to worry about when to review what.

[Sophia]

I dropped the Latin ball with my older two, but I've been pretty faithful about keeping my middle two on track.

 

The first thing I would say is that daily chants and vocabulary review is a must.

 

My 10 y.o. is in LL2 but I still review vocabulary from book 1 with her. I don't go back to the very beginning every day, but I do try and get to it once a week. Current vocabulary is daily, though. Chants are also daily, and if I don't have time to do it with her, I send her to a sibling with her flashcards. This daily memory work has been very effective in helping her retain not only definitions but also proper cases when translating sentences. She's usually translated the sentences correctly while I'm still trying to figure out how she knew to use the genitive singular instead of the nominative plural, lol.

My 8th grader is in Henle right now. She played around with Memoria Press's French over the summer and thinks she wants to pursue French in high school, alongside Latin. She did say having a Latin background made learning French easy :). Her experience has convinced me to concentrate on Latin in grammar/middle school years and start a second language in high school.

[Laura Corin]

We set up a continual review system for Latin and other languages. It's not worth doing - I believe - if you are not really learning the stuff: it will just lead to frustration.

 

Laura

[skimomma]

The purpose of Latin instruction in the early grades is memorization of grammar and vocabulary that will allow reading of original works later on. As Tress said, children all over the world are learning, actually learning, foreign languages at this stage. Before the 20th century, children were learning Latin. There's no reason a 4th grader cannot be expected to actually learn the content instead of just being exposed to the language. It's not always fun and definitely requires some effort, but if one is serious about the idea that Latin is important, then it is absolutely necessary.

 

Thanks to everyone for chiming in. The above was what my first inclination was, but I have been accused of going "overboard" with "academics" so I wanted to bounce it off of others before we go back, regroup, and get some of the past material more firmly in her (and my) head. I think I have identified that memorization in general is a challenge for dd. She struggles with memorization in other subjects as well. She can easily and quickly commit things to shorter term memory....a month or two....but things seem to slip out afterwards. I am guessing that more work in this area will only help even if it is a little painful for a bit.

[Laura Corin]

 

Thanks to everyone for chiming in. The above was what my first inclination was, but I have been accused of going "overboard" with "academics" so I wanted to bounce it off of others before we go back, regroup, and get some of the past material more firmly in her (and my) head. I think I have identified that memorization in general is a challenge for dd. She struggles with memorization in other subjects as well. She can easily and quickly commit things to shorter term memory....a month or two....but things seem to slip out afterwards. I am guessing that more work in this area will only help even if it is a little painful for a bit.

 

Just for reference: this was our system:

 

We had a file with 31 pockets. Anything learned was put into the pocket that corresponded to the next day (so if today is '4' then it would go in '5'). If it was a page in a book that was learned, then a note of that page would go in the pocket. Or a set of flash cards could go in. When '5' came, the item would be tested and reviewed. If it was known perfectly, it would go a week ahead (to '12') if not it went into the next day. Once it was well remembered after a week, it would stay in the same 'number' from month to month, getting revisited twelve times a year.

 

We used one file for all subjects and scheduled time every day for memorising the day's items. At weekends, I would do a little rearranging so that things were not missed out because we did not do school work on Saturday and Sunday.

 

Laura

[skimomma]

Just for reference: this was our system:

 

We had a file with 31 pockets. Anything learned was put into the pocket that corresponded to the next day (so if today is '4' then it would go in '5'). If it was a page in a book that was learned, then a note of that page would go in the pocket. Or a set of flash cards could go in. When '5' came, the item would be tested and reviewed. If it was known perfectly, it would go a week ahead (to '12') if not it went into the next day. Once it was well remembered after a week, it would stay in the same 'number' from month to month, getting revisited twelve times a year.

 

We used one file for all subjects and scheduled time every day for memorising the day's items. At weekends, I would do a little rearranging so that things were not missed out because we did not do school work on Saturday and Sunday.

 

Laura

 

 

This is brilliant! Thanks!!!!!

[skimomma]

I spent a good amount of time thinking about this last night. I have another question. When kids get to the next stage of Latin, out of the children's curriculum and into the more rigorous curriculum, do they go back to the beginning or start off with the assumption that they have the basic declensions and conjucations memorized? I ask, because I am now wondering if we should start all over again from scratch or just work on strengthening memorization as we continue on. If I know she is going to see this again from the beginning, I am more inclined to do the latter.

[Laura Corin]

Presumably it depends on what programme you move on to. For example, Latin Prep assumes no background in Latin - it starts at the beginning (from about age 10 or 11) but it moves faster than a programme for younger children. Having solid facts memorised already would be a great advantage. SY Latin also assumes no background in Latin but moves faster again and is designed for beginners aged 13 or so - again, having a background of memorisation would be very useful.

 

For comparison, at my boys' school, pupils start off playing with Minimus at about age 9. I don't think they do much memorising. It's more of a 'Latin can be fun' experience. At about age 10 they start of Latin Prep 1, spending two years on it and memorising thoroughly. After that, they start Cambridge Latin 1 - moving fast because they already have much of the grammar down. They work on through Cambridge Latin (supplemented with extra memorisation) until they get to about age 16. If they choose to do Latin after that, they work quickly through SY Latin 3 to mop up any bits of grammar and be really solid on it before diving head first into more complex original texts.

 

The thing that I worry about with not being solid with the grammar is that the pupil gets frustrated and goes off the subject.

 

Laura

[Sophia]

When kids get to the next stage of Latin, out of the children's curriculum and into the more rigorous curriculum, do they go back to the beginning or start off with the assumption that they have the basic declensions and conjucations memorized?

 

My 8th grader is in Henle and she is taking a class alongside students who are new to Latin, so yes, they do start at the beginning. The difference is that with her background of LL, the class is easy and enjoyable for her, while some of the other kids don't feel quite the same way.

[HecticMama]

I don't know if this will help you, but we write the words learned for the week each day, and the previous week's as well. We also make flash cards which we use right before we write the words with their translations. We also put the conjugations/declensions on cards. We go through all the cards about every other month, pulling out cards that aren't memorized yet to go over more often. Once the words are in place, more time is spent on the grammar and word placement.

 

Good luck!

[2_girls_mommy]

We recite the lists of things studied a couple of times a week at least.

[skimomma]

I am really wishing I had made a plan when we first started. Hindsight is 20/20, eh? The thought of making flashcards for everything we have covered so far is daunting. The Anki option looks interesting except that dd does not have access to a computer on a regular basis. I have made time for us to discuss this tomorrow. I am thinking of cancelling regular Latin lessons until Christmas and just do a thorough review, creating some sort of memory aids for the things that seem to challenge her the most. But I am also going to try not to sweat it too much. It is really me who messed this up. Even if it is not all 100% memorized, she will have a good basis for the next step. LHC has redular review chapters and she always aces those. It is a year later that words are slipping out of her brain.....

[ElizabethB]

:grouphug:

 

They have flash cards you can buy, here is for A, they also have a set for B.

http://classicalacademicpress.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_6_13&products_id=71&zenid=919ede001f4823ff4f85560c0dc3f79c

 

Personally, I found that the vocabulary my daughter and another friend learned best and retained the easiest were those that had similar English words. After a few months of LfC A, I switched to gently using Latin Alive. They learn the vocabulary much better now. Both girls are good readers and very verbal, so it fitted them much better. (The vocab is usually linked to similar English words, whereas in LfC, it was more rote memory.) They started using Latin Alive in 4th grade. I watch the DVDs a few lessons ahead and teach until their eyes start glazing over, usually 1/2 a lesson, but sometimes more.

 

[mom2att]

I'm no expert, but it sounds to me like that amount of translation is expecting a logic-stage skill from a grammar-stage child. Some kids are ready for it, but many may not be. For me the reason to begin Latin in the elementary years is to learn well the grammar of Latin--the conjugations, declensions, and vocabulary. Then when it's time to make those connections through more complicated translation exercises, the stage has been set. My oldest did Latina Christiana through part of Henle from 3rd -7th. When I could no longer teach her, having no Latin background myself, I signed her up for high school level Latin through our state's virtual school. Yes, it started at the beginning. But she could cruise through it because the forms and so much of the vocabulary had already been learned, and she was at an age where she was ready to move on and actually apply that info. She did well with both Latin I and II, then moved into Spanish which was incredibly easy after so much Latin.

 

I think I'd cut way back on the the translations at this point and really focus on retaining the basics. When she's ready for more advanced translation work, not having to stop to think about grammar and vocab will make it that much easier.

[aelgraham]

I remember doing this program with my son around that age. Looking back, I would completely drop that frustrating translation book. Maybe you could find a simpler one. It was just too much. We worked through LFC A & B, and towards the end of B we were really waning. We took some time off and started this year (8th grade) with Latin Alive and I'm surprised by how much was retained or comes back easily.

 

My advice is to keep plugging away, perhaps slow it down some, find simpler translation exercises, and don't worry too much. Then when you go on to a higher-level program you will have a stronger foundation than you think.

 

Latin is hard, but in my opinion, well worth it.

 

Hope that helps!

Amy

 

How is that for a title?

 

My 4th grade 9yo is working through Latin For Children B. We did A last year. This question is especially for people using LFC but advice from anyone doing Latin with a grammar stage child would be appreciated.

 

I did not learn Latin growing up but convinced myself to do it with my dd because I feel it helps with Language Arts and will be an aid in learning other languages later on. It has been going well. We like LFC and so far my dd has a good attitude about Latin. My original plan was to begin another foreign language next year (5th grade) while continuing Latin.

 

LFC includes a weekly history reader with semi-complicated translations to apply what they are learning. I understand that in a classroom setting, this exercse is meant to be done in groups with a lot of help. In our reality, my dd really struggles with them. I allow her to look up words, which she needs to frequently due to forgetting past vocabulary or simply because it is a word she has never seen before. However, I am also finding that she is not following the most basic of rules and must be reminded every single week. Like finding the verb and determining tense. Or finding the case of each noun to determine its role (and therefore order) in the sentance. I am really holding her hand here and it seems to be getting worse as we progress. Again, this in theory does not concern me too much as I know the reader is really not meant to be a totally independent exercise.

 

What is worrying me is her lack of retention. When we get to these forgotten steps, she often cannot recite some of the older chants. Especially pronouns, 3rd declension endings, and irregular verbs conjucations. Past vocabulary is also a problem. Anytime we go to review old vocabulary words more than a few weeks old, she often has forgotten them or gotten them mixed up.

 

So that got me thinking.... What is the goal here? In the grammar stage, should I expect full retention as though she is learning a conversational language she will be expected to use in real life? Or is my goal more like the first swipe at history, exposure, practice, and general familiarity? I am toying with stopping LFC and going back to try to hammer everything into memory. But I don't want to do that if it is expecting too much of a 4th grader or if that is not even the point of Latin at this stage.

 

Which got me thinking about adding a language, probably Spanish, next year. Am I setting us up for a retention failure? I thought memorization and retention was supposed to be easier for younger kids. Won't this just get worse as she gets older?

 

Please share your goals so I can better form my own!

 

Thanks!

 

[Dmmetler]

I've used Cambridge Latin along with LfC B, which worked better than the LfC readers. What I noticed with LFC was that DD memorized the chants, but didn't carry over the vocabulary in context, while by adding the immersion approach that CL tends to do, she was able to use the words she'd already memorized in the chants in context, and it really "clicked".

[SilverMoon]

I'd say for her age she's doing great. Really. :001_smile: It's okay to work those translations backwards by looking up the vocabulary and having to say the chants again. My first pass through LFC was with older kids than your DD and they still tripped up a bit on that reader. From our experience, having to work them backwards drove the grammar and vocab home more solid than extra chanting did.

[Tranquility7]

I would slow down and review vocab and grammar more often. Are you using a system for reviewing? We are using Anki (a computerbased flashcard program) so I do not have to worry about when to review what.

The first thing I would say is that daily chants and vocabulary review is a must.

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: Review, review, review. The fresher the vocab is, the easier (and more fun) translation is. It’s such a drag to have to look everything up!

 

I spent a good amount of time thinking about this last night. I have another question. When kids get to the next stage of Latin, out of the children's curriculum and into the more rigorous curriculum, do they go back to the beginning or start off with the assumption that they have the basic declensions and conjucations memorized? I ask, because I am now wondering if we should start all over again from scratch or just work on strengthening memorization as we continue on. If I know she is going to see this again from the beginning, I am more inclined to do the latter.

Have you ever heard of Getting Started With Latin? I am just finishing it up with my DS, and we have both loved it. It is translation-based, teaching basic grammar concepts, and very few vocab words (so not a lot of memorizing). What DS loves is that every chapter has ten translation sentences. They start off VERY easy, and the more grammar they teach you, the more complex the sentences get. It is a GREAT start to translating, because it starts so easy with it, rather than with a long complex sentence.

 

The grammar it teaches is present tense first and second conjugation verbs (plus sum and possum verbs, which are irregular), as well as first and second declension nouns (all cases), plus some of all parts of speech (so the sentences can be interesting). I think none of the grammar would be new to your DD if she is in LFCB (though a review never hurts, IMHO), and some of the vocab will be new, but actually *using* all of that grammar in translations will certainly be new. I think it will help her understand the grammar she has already learned a lot better, and might even be enjoyable – at least it has been for us! I highly recommend it. You could probably do the whole book with her in just a month or two **while also doing review of LFC vocab as PPs have mentioned**, and then go back to the LFC history readers and I bet they will be SO much more manageable for her.