Colleen or others knowledgeable about raw milk/organic milk-I have a question!

[HappyGrace]

I'm not absolutely positive that the place we get raw milk from is organic. She says it is, and I want to believe her. They do sell the milk to dairies or stores or something, but I have no idea whether it is sold to them as organic or not. The cows are grass fed only, so that's great.

 

The thing that has me wondering is that they enter their cows in big statewide shows, etc., and I know the cows have won some things like "best udder" and so on. It wouldn't seem to me that organic cows could win in these type of shows against "drugged" cows because it would be like comparing apples and oranges. Plus their udders look really huge to me, and they are VERY big cows. Am I totally off base on this? Could they actually be organic, and competing in these shows? And is there really any way to tell by looking (sizewise, etc.) if a cow is taking growth hormone and so on?

 

And my next question is: if I'm unsure, would it be better healthwise to have raw milk that may NOT be organic, or grocery store milk that I'm sure is organic? Thanks so much for your help!

[Sue G in PA]

We buy our milk from an Amish farm around the corner. They don't advertise organic, but do state they they don't use RBGH on their cows. THat's good enough for me. Plus, I think the cows are grass fed. It's cheaper than grocery store organic milk, too. I'd ask them directly if they use RBGH on their cows. As for the shows, I wouldn't think they would be able to enter "drugged" cows. How not fair is that! Sort of like drugged athletes, KWIM?

[Mom to Aly]

From what I know, raw milk can cause undulant fever--is that not a worry?

[Colleen]

I'm not absolutely positive that the place we get raw milk from is organic. She says it is, and I want to believe her. They do sell the milk to dairies or stores or something, but I have no idea whether it is sold to them as organic or not.

 

If you want to know if they're certified organic, ask to see their paperwork verifying that. It sounds like she's using the term "organic" not in an authoritative sense ~ that is, they aren't certified ~ but as a description of their practices. If I were you, I would want to know specifically about their farming practices, particularly if I were purchasing raw milk. I would have to be very, very familiar with both the farm and the farmer in order to drink their raw milk.

 

The cows are grass fed only, so that's great.

 

Dairy cows are not grass fed only ~ especially show cows. So that claim right there makes me a bit suspicious. Even pasture-based management doesn't imply a diet of grass only.

 

It wouldn't seem to me that organic cows could win in these type of shows against "drugged" cows because it would be like comparing apples and oranges.

 

Not necessarily.

 

Could they actually be organic, and competing in these shows?

 

Yes, especially if the animals are registered, e.g. have a good pedigree.

 

And is there really any way to tell by looking (sizewise, etc.) if a cow is taking growth hormone and so on?

 

No.

 

If I'm unsure, would it be better healthwise to have raw milk that may NOT be organic, or grocery store milk that I'm sure is organic?

 

What you should do, imo, is gain more information about this place before buying any more raw milk from them. Certified organic isn't necessarily the most important issue to me as a consumer, but I certainly would need to know with assurance about feeding and treatment of the herd. As I said above, if I weren't very familiar and comfortable with it, I'd forego raw milk. In my case, if we didn't farm, I'd buy from a local farmer, a friend of ours, who bottles and pasteurizes his own milk. It's not certified organic, but I know enough about him and his practices to know that he could easily obtain organic certification. If that was not an option, I'd buy organic from the store.

 

Does this help? Let me know if you have more questions.:)

[Sue G in PA]

From what I know, raw milk can cause undulant fever--is that not a worry?

 

Never heard of that before. I do know that unless you are buying raw milk from a reputable source it is best to stay away. We know the family from whom we buy. People have been drinking raw milk since after the fall w/out problems. It's all in how it is handled, I think. I'll have to check into undulant fever...

[hillfarm]

What state are you in? Each state usually has its own laws that pertain to the use of the term Organic. Honestly, nowdays it is more of a legal term rather than a descriptive one. Some of the laws allow certain percentages of horrible chemicals to be present and the product still gets labeled organic. In my state it is also based on dollar volume, If I sell less than $2000 of milk, I can do whatever I want and call it organic. But if i sell more, then I have more regulations if I want to call it organic. Even then, most people would be disappointed at what meets the standards and is labeled organic. Each farmer has their own standards. Most around me consider organic/chemical free to mean that we feed all organic feeds, whether grass or grain and hay, uncontaminated water, and if a cow has a medical problem and has to be treated with a non-natural substance, they will be removed from the herd.

 

Second, ask your supplier if by organic they mean chemical free or in accordance with the state definition or what. Do they go all the way and feed only organic feeds, pure water, and remove any cows that need medicated from the herd? If you are paying organic prices, then you have a right to know. Tell them you were reading something recently (you don't have to mention that you initiated the topic:)) and that you realized that you didn't really understand where their milk fit into the whole framework. Honest farmers who take the pains to go chemical free are usually proud of that fact and are excited to talk about it. If they seem shifty or reluctant to answer your questions, then you may well not be getting what you think you are.

 

BTW, grass fed is great but unless you live in a tremendously rich grassland area, they will definitely have to supplement in the winter and possibly all year round. It takes a lot of nutrients to produce several pounds of milk each and every day. There is nothing wrong with supplementing the ration if needed with good quality grain and hay. It is more of an issue with beef cattle where the flesh will be consumed, not just the milk. Can you imagine asking a nursing mother to produce her best on a low calorie diet?

 

You will sometimes hear people talk about how grain supplementation isn't natural, but IMHO, neither is milking two or three times per day for an extended period of time. In order for cows to thrive in our current modern dairy system, they usually need extra nutrients. (Sorry, I'll get off my milkcan now...)

[LauraGB]

I'm not absolutely positive that the place we get raw milk from is organic. She says it is, and I want to believe her. They do sell the milk to dairies or stores or something, but I have no idea whether it is sold to them as organic or not. The cows are grass fed only, so that's great.

 

The thing that has me wondering is that they enter their cows in big statewide shows, etc., and I know the cows have won some things like "best udder" and so on. It wouldn't seem to me that organic cows could win in these type of shows against "drugged" cows because it would be like comparing apples and oranges. Plus their udders look really huge to me, and they are VERY big cows. Am I totally off base on this? Could they actually be organic, and competing in these shows? And is there really any way to tell by looking (sizewise, etc.) if a cow is taking growth hormone and so on?

 

And my next question is: if I'm unsure, would it be better healthwise to have raw milk that may NOT be organic, or grocery store milk that I'm sure is organic? Thanks so much for your help!

 

Yes, they certainly can compete - clean them up and they look a lot like every other cow ;). As for buying your milk...have you seen your farm's tests? The bulk tank was tested regularly from the farm we bought milk from and the results posted. You really want this to be the case due to the bacteria, which can be an issue at ANY kind of dairy. If you are unsure about this, ask them. They should have this info available if they sell their milk to a major manufacturer. I must say, though, do not drink milk from a non-organic farm. The dangers are why homogenization and pasteurization came about. If your farm is on its way, but not certified, just ask to see the tests.

[hillfarm]

And another thing....

 

Raw milk can contain various bacteria and other pathogens. However, pretty much all of the other food we consume can have these problems present also. For milk, some of the issues are based on the cow's diet. Certain toxic plants have been found to pass toxins through the system and into the milk. In most cases, though, the problem comes in during the handling. Producers have to be very careful to keep the product from becoming contaminated. There are many very small operations that do a stellar job of this and there are some larger commercial dairies that do a miserable job. It depends on the individual. As Colleen mentioned, definitely talk to the people. Ask if you can observe one of their milkings and have a tour of the facility (I am thinking Field Trip material here!). Pay special attention to their cleaning and sterilization of the equipment after the milk touches it.

 

Most of the good guys will be glad to have customers who care. Especially if you have been a previous buyer over time.

[Colleen]

From what I know, raw milk can cause undulant fever--is that not a worry?

 

Undulant fever (brucellosis) is not an issue here because all herds ~ including organic herds ~ are vaccinated against it.

[Colleen]

There's a lot of justifiable confusion about the use of the term organic. To that end, I want to clarify a couple of points you made, hillfarm, for others reading this discussion.

 

Organic certification is not merely willy-nilly, depending upon the state in which one lives. While various state and private agencies oversee the certification process, each of those certifiers has been approved by the US Department of Agriculture. It's inaccurate to say that each state has its own laws pertaining to the use of the term organic. In accordance with National Organic Program legislation, the use of the term "organic" is restricted to certified organic producers. Yes, very small producers are an exception in that they don't have to obtain certification, but they're still subject to compliance and can (and have) had their practices verified.

[Janna]

Dairy cows are not grass fed only ~ especially show cows. So that claim right there makes me a bit suspicious. Even pasture-based management doesn't imply a diet of grass only.

 

Colleen, this statement interests me. There is a creamery close to where I live that claims they are 100% grass-fed cows. It's a creamery, so all they do is dairy. Are you saying that that's impossible? It's a genuine question, I'm not trying to argue or anything. Here's their website, with their statement right there on the front. What do you think? Have I been paying sky-high prices for this and being scammed? It doesn't seem that way when we visit their farm...

[Julie in CA]

The thing that has me wondering is that they enter their cows in big statewide shows, etc., and I know the cows have won some things like "best udder" and so on. It wouldn't seem to me that organic cows could win in these type of shows against "drugged" cows because it would be like comparing apples and oranges. Plus their udders look really huge to me, and they are VERY big cows. Am I totally off base on this? Could they actually be organic, and competing in these shows? And is there really any way to tell by looking (sizewise, etc.) if a cow is taking growth hormone and so on?

 

 

 

Lol! Others here have addressed many of your questions already, so forgive me if this has been mentioned already, but I'd like to put your mind to rest on this one point at least!

 

Just as human females have different sized booKs and still produce plenty of milk whether large or small, so it is with cows. The udders can be big, they can be small, and still produce plenty of milk, and still be organic (or not). You shouldn't factor in either the size of the cow or her udder when considering whether you believe the milk is truly organic. :001_smile:

[HappyGrace]

I did ask her previously and they do not use RBGH. They are not certified organic. I do know they actually were certified by the state to sell raw milk until about a year ago, but there was an incident (which she actually got on videotape because the cows are on video in the barn so they can watch birthings but not interfere unless needed, plus for security) where the inspector claimed something in the milk, but the video showed him improperly taking the sample (and I mean very improperly-there were about four things they did wrong that could have contaminated the milk.) She was so frustrated she dropped the certification. (This was after several other ambush type things like this from inspectors. It is very frowned upon in our state.)

 

A very trusted friend told me about this small farm. The friend is STRICTLY organic (even goes to a special dentist, etc.), and it came highly recommended to her and she checked into it. She has been getting her milk there for over two years. When I called, the farmer actually offered my dc and I a long tour. She was very open about everything, and seems really on the level. The milking room is all stainless steel and immaculate. She washes the cows (or parts of them) frequently, sometimes daily! The entire place is extremely clean. While I was in there, one cow urinated and one defecated and she immediately went and removed it and placed clean chips down. The barn was recently completely overhauled and the cows have almost like a posturpedic mattress type thing underneath them. These cows are their entire life-we have walked in on her singing to them while she milks!

 

The cows are supplemented with balage all summer and eat their own organic balage all winter. I should mention that she did not specifically say they were not fed any grain, but that grass/balage is the bulk of their diet. We also have to call the day before so she can fill up for us that next morning, because once she sterilizes it's done til the evening milking.

 

I do know they do a lot with bloodlines and so on with the cows. I guess it was the showing of cows that got me wondering. I like hillfarm's idea of mentioning reading something recently and wondering how they fit into the scheme of things organic-wise. I felt really, really comfortable with her and the farm when I went though. I had no qualms until this showing business came up.

 

Anything else come to mind after reading this extra info?

[HappyGrace]

I'm laughing about the booK size comment!

 

I guess my wondering came from something I read once about non-organic cows producing exponentially larger amounts of milk (freak-like amounts) than non-organic, so I wrongly thought that udder size would reflect that! LOL!

[Tracy in Ky]

Colleen, this statement interests me. There is a creamery close to where I live that claims they are 100% grass-fed cows. It's a creamery, so all they do is dairy. Are you saying that that's impossible? It's a genuine question, I'm not trying to argue or anything. Here's their website, with their statement right there on the front. What do you think? Have I been paying sky-high prices for this and being scammed? It doesn't seem that way when we visit their farm...

 

I'm not Colleen, but I'll jump in. It is possible to have dairy cows that are only grass/hay fed, it just isn't all that common in the US. The milk from 100% grass-fed is supposed to be very, very nutritious.

 

Feeding them grain really increases the milk supply, so most dairies do. And I *think* that most modern cows are bred such that they almost have to have grain to make the volume of milk that they have been bred to make. The way I understand it is that if you don't feed them some grain, they will continue to try to produce the same amount of milk, but to do so they will draw on their own reserves, weaking themselves in the process. We wanted to feed our cow grass only, but we realized that it might make Daisy weak and sickly. So, we decided to feed her some (8 pounds a day), but not as much as the dairy was (16 pounds a day).

 

I'm sure Colleen can tell you more. I barely know what I am talking about.:001_huh:

[Scarlett]

Yes, very small producers are an exception in that they don't have to obtain certification, but they're still subject to compliance and can (and have) had their practices verified.

 

I didn't know this. Very helpful.