Science plan for possible engineer?

[qfbrenda]

My head is swimming from all the science research I've been doing hopefully you all can clear up some things for me.

 

I was trying to figure out a science plan for my oldest who plans to be an engineer of some sort. I was thinking of jumping into biology for 9th grade and settled on BJU with the DIVE Cd. Then I noticed that BJU considers biology a 10th grade class. :confused: Is that still a decent plan?

 

Then I was thinking down the line and considering this plan:

 

10th: chemistry

11th: advanced biology/anatomy

12th: physics

 

But then I was thinking.... is that too much of a focus on life sciences for a engineering-geared guy? Or is that a decent plan?

 

I don't mind taking one year at a time but feel like we need some sort of idea where we are headed so we don't find ourselves in a real mess down the road.

 

Help, please!

[regentrude]

For an engineer, I would not do two years of biology in high school. Ideally, I would start with algebra based physics, then chem, then bio, and an advanced physics course in 12th grade. If that is not possible because the student does not yet have enough math, you would have to start with bio. For most students, math is the limiting factor in the science progression; it is the only reason why many begin with bio - there are no logical reasons otherwise.

 

I would use anatomy as a high school science only for a student interested in biological engineering or medicine related fields.

Edited October 26, 2012 by regentrude

[Gwen in VA]

I second the vote against doing two years of bio/anatomy. Do one year and then stick with chemistry and physics.

 

I'm a traditionalist, so I'd start with biology in 9th, followed by chemistry in 10th.

 

For 11th and 12th I would do either AP Chem and AP Physics B (in either order) or AP Physics B and then AP Physics C, depending on your student's interests..

 

AP physics B is not particularly difficult and is often taken as a first course in physics.

 

Iif your student wants to do AP Physics C, he definitely needs both a strong previous class in physics and to be taking calculus concurrently (or have already taken calculus).

[kiana]

What's he doing for math? Because honestly his math is at least as important as his science.

 

I'd lean more towards the physical sciences instead of the second year of biology, unless he's thinking of biomedical engineering. I see your last post was a year ago and indicates heading for pre-algebra, which I'm guessing he's doing algebra 1 in 9th, correct? If not, disregard the next paragraph.

 

If so, I'd go ahead and do biology. I'd also work year-round on math if need be as most freshmen engineers will at least have seen calculus 1 before, and his coursework will be far more difficult if he's one of the few who hasn't at least seen the concepts before. He also needs to make sure he gets in a serious course on chemistry and another on physics before he graduates. I'd also look into a course on programming, not to replace a science/math class but as an elective -- again, many engineering programs include a lot of programming, and someone who's genuinely starting from scratch will have to run to catch up.

[qfbrenda]

I'm very glad I asked about this. He's a bit behind on math--long story--so yes, we're planning on algebra 1 for 9th grade but he's not ready to start that yet. We're doing math year round and double on Saturday to work on catching up.

 

I'm thinking of following the DIVE CD schedule. So we would do:

 

Physical Science (physics/chemistry intro)

Biology

Chemistry

Physics

 

Does that sound better?

 

Thanks for the tip about programming. I'll make a note of that.

[Gwen in VA]

I would work VERY hard to get at least one "advanced" or AP or community college university-level science class.

 

Maybe he can double up on a science one year so he can get the year of advanced science? The lack of advanced science may be a stumbling block for admissions people at more selective schools.

 

Also, would you consider having him couble up on math? He could do geometry in addition to the algebra -- they are distinctly different subjects. Otherwise his being a bit behind in math will hurt him in his science progress.

[Storm Bay]

I'm very glad I asked about this. He's a bit behind on math--long story--so yes, we're planning on algebra 1 for 9th grade but he's not ready to start that yet. We're doing math year round and double on Saturday to work on catching up.

 

I'm thinking of following the DIVE CD schedule. So we would do:

 

Physical Science (physics/chemistry intro)

Biology

Chemistry

Physics

 

Does that sound better?

 

Thanks for the tip about programming. I'll make a note of that.

What the honours kids, which naturally include the ones who do AP classes, here in ps (but not necessarily at home) is to take Physical Science or Earth science with some atronomy & physical science tied into it, in gr 8, then they do Honours Biology during their freshman year even though Biology is a gr 10 class, & Chem for sure. Physics is important for your ds as he's going into a science related field. If you don't want to do an AP science class for some reason, you might consider doing SAT subject tests in the sciences; my eldest did one in molecular biology.

 

As for AP classes, you can do those, but not all students who go on to do well in engineering do, but it's important for some selective schools. I highly recommend considering doing AP Calculus his senior year, since there is a lot of math involved in engineering, and Statistics really isn't relevant. Dd is doing this now (she wants to major in math, not in Stats or in engineering) with the Larson text, although she's doing it at the ps.

[regentrude]

If he is at all interested in attending a competetive school, I would not include Physical Science in his high school courses, because most students have taken this as a middle school course. I second the recommendation of trying to get him to take an advanced science course.

[qfbrenda]

Ok, then we will go directly to biology this year and skip physical science. He has done a bit of physical science this year so that's enough of that.

 

Yes, we can double up on math. I remember having to do that in high school so I know it's doable.

 

Thank you all so much for your help! I'm open to any other thoughts you might have. :)

[EKS]

What we would have done (if we had continued homeschooling past grade 10.5)

 

7th grade: Conceptual physics

8th grade: Chemistry

9th grade: Astronomy (at son's request)

10th grade: Biology

11th grade: Chemistry I and II and Intro to Physics (dual enrollment) (and calculus I, II, and III)

12th grade: Calculus based physics I, II, and III (dual enrollment)

[kiana]

Ok, then we will go directly to biology this year and skip physical science. He has done a bit of physical science this year so that's enough of that.

 

Yes, we can double up on math. I remember having to do that in high school so I know it's doable.

 

Thank you all so much for your help! I'm open to any other thoughts you might have. :)

 

Just to help w/planning:

 

DIVE's chemistry recommends at least concurrent enrollment in algebra 2, and physics recommends at least concurrent enrollment in precalculus. So you'll need to be starting algebra 2 at a minimum by the beginning of 10th grade, and precalculus (which means you'll need geometry done) by the beginning of 11th grade. BJU's sequence is alg 1/geo/alg 2, so what you're probably looking at is doing alg 2/geo in 10th grade. I'd start geometry as soon as algebra 1 is done and work through the summer to reduce the school-year load for 10th grade -- two math classes at once can be difficult!

[qfbrenda]

Would it be possible to double up this year on math? So he would be doing algebra 1 and geometry at the same time. Then next year he would do algebra 2 and chemistry.

 

9th:

biology with DIVE

BJU algebra 1

BJU geometry

TOG history/lit/writing

vocab

logic if we have time

 

10th:

chemistry with DIVE

BJU algebra 2

TOG: history/lit/writing

not sure what else yet

[kiana]

Most geometry programs expect that the student knows algebra 1 -- I'm not very familiar with BJU, but looking at their course description it says '"Analytic Geometry" helps students to make the algebra-geometry connection in each chapter.' -- that looks like they're expecting the student to already know algebra. So I wouldn't start the geometry course until algebra 1 is finished.

 

If he's able to finish algebra 1 early with good understanding I would surely go ahead and start geometry, but I would run them consecutively, rather than concurrently. Whether he's able to get them both done in one year (even including summer) is going to very much depend on his aptitude, prior knowledge, and work habits.

[qfbrenda]

Thank you!

[swimmermom3]

For an engineer, I would not do two years of biology in high school. Ideally, I would start with algebra based physics, then chem, then bio, and an advanced physics course in 12th grade. If that is not possible because the student does not yet have enough math, you would have to start with bio. For most students, math is the limiting factor in the science progression; it is the only reason why many begin with bio - there are no logical reasons otherwise.

 

I would use anatomy as a high school science only for a student interested in biological engineering or medicine related fields.

 

Regentrude,

 

Do you mean to do something like this:

 

9th: Conceptual Physics or the Knight text(?) - Algebra 1

10th: Biology - Geometry & Algebra II

11th: Chemistry - PreCalc./Trig.

12th: Adv. Physics - Calculus

 

Our district just moved to STEM Physics for freshmen, then biology to chemistry. My two older kids aced biology, but struggled with chemistry. Sometimes I think the extra year of mature and math practice can really make a difference for chemistry.

[regentrude]

Regentrude,

 

Do you mean to do something like this:

 

9th: Conceptual Physics or the Knight text(?) - Algebra 1

10th: Biology - Geometry & Algebra II

11th: Chemistry - PreCalc./Trig.

12th: Adv. Physics - Calculus

 

Our district just moved to STEM Physics for freshmen, then biology to chemistry. My two older kids aced biology, but struggled with chemistry. Sometimes I think the extra year of mature and math practice can really make a difference for chemistry.

 

No. You can't do Knight without solid algebra 1 mastery, and even for Conceptual physics, some algebra 1 is beneficial. Generally, it would be ideal for a STEM interested student to have taken algebra 1 before 9th grade.

I would also study chemistry before biology, because there is so much biochemistry in any modern biology approach. (DD did bio as first high school science in 7th grade, and the lack of chemistry made it much more difficult.)

[qfbrenda]

Ok, every time I think I have this settled in my head I get confused again. I thought chemistry had to happen after algebra, so how could one do chemistry before biology? Suddenly high school feels like it should be stretched into 5-6 years. :tongue_smilie: LOL

 

For the record, I took algebra 1 and geometry at the same time in high school and the combo was fine. But that was 22 years ago and it's possible things have changed. :001_smile:

[swimmermom3]

No. You can't do Knight without solid algebra 1 mastery, and even for Conceptual physics, some algebra 1 is beneficial. Generally, it would be ideal for a STEM interested student to have taken algebra 1 before 9th grade.

I would also study chemistry before biology, because there is so much biochemistry in any modern biology approach. (DD did bio as first high school science in 7th grade, and the lack of chemistry made it much more difficult.)

 

Thank you. I was thinking about the Op's situation on the math, but you are right. My youngest had Algebra I has an 8th grader, so this year he is doing STEM Physics with geometry. The old sequence was biology to chemistry for 9th and 10th grade. Now the students take chemistry before biology. I hope they have ramped up the difficulty for biology since it will now be taken by 11th graders.

[regentrude]

Ok, every time I think I have this settled in my head I get confused again. I thought chemistry had to happen after algebra, so how could one do chemistry before biology?

 

Yes, chemistry requires algebra - but you can do chemistry before biology if the student has taken algebra 1 before chemistry. It is pretty common for STEM interested students to have taken algebra 1 before 9th grade.

 

If the student is taking algebra 1 in 9th grade, biology is pretty much his only option as a first science because he does not have enough math for physics or chemistry.

[qfbrenda]

Ok, thank you. Now I can't remember if I doubled geometry with algebra 1 or algebra 2. Oh well... I emailed Bob Jones so maybe someone there will advise me, just add another opinion into the mix.

 

So... maybe this:

 

9th:

biology

algebra 1

 

10th:

chemistry

geometry

algebra 2

[kiana]

Ok, thank you. Now I can't remember if I doubled geometry with algebra 1 or algebra 2. Oh well... I emailed Bob Jones so maybe someone there will advise me, just add another opinion into the mix.

 

So... maybe this:

 

9th:

biology

algebra 1

 

10th:

chemistry

geometry

algebra 2

 

That'll work.

 

Whether geometry can be doubled with algebra 1 *completely* depends on the geometry program. Some include very little algebra, but most modern geometry programs (BJU will probably tell you if theirs does) include enough algebra to make it problematic.

[regentrude]

Whether geometry can be doubled with algebra 1 *completely* depends on the geometry program. Some include very little algebra, but most modern geometry programs (BJU will probably tell you if theirs does) include enough algebra to make it problematic.

 

The student could STILL double up on math and, instead of doing the programs concurrently, do them consecutively: finish algebra 1 in one semester, do geometry the second semester. Either way, two math programs per year would translate into spending double time on math.

[kiana]

The student could STILL double up on math and, instead of doing the programs concurrently, do them consecutively: finish algebra 1 in one semester, do geometry the second semester. Either way, two math programs per year would translate into spending double time on math.

 

Absolutely; I think I already recommended this without the timeline. I think putting a timeline on algebra 1 such that "we must finish this in one semester" would be unwise, but I do think that going through algebra 1 as fast as the student can comprehend and then starting geometry immediately afterwards would be wise in this situation.

[Storm Bay]

No. You can't do Knight without solid algebra 1 mastery, and even for Conceptual physics, some algebra 1 is beneficial. Generally, it would be ideal for a STEM interested student to have taken algebra 1 before 9th grade.

I would also study chemistry before biology, because there is so much biochemistry in any modern biology approach. (DD did bio as first high school science in 7th grade, and the lack of chemistry made it much more difficult.)

 

Yes, this is all correct. There are now Biology texts with chapters on Chem now (my middle dd is using one like this for hon. Bio), but it's better to have a course first.

 

Conceptual Physics needs at least Alg 1--it's only Conceptual Chemistry that doesn't require it. While an ideal model is to do Physics first, you can do Chem first if your dc doesn't have Algebra 1 first for some reason. If you go that route, then you will want to double up on Algebra 2 & Geometry in order to get to Calculus by gr 12/senior year.

[AngieW in Texas]

If he is going to be starting Algebra I in 9th grade, then I would look at following this path:

9th - Algebra I and Conceptual Chemistry

10th - Geometry and Biology

11th - Algebra II and algebra-based physics (based on Algebra I, not Algebra II)

12th - Precalculus and AP Physics B

 

OR

 

9th - Algebra I and Conceptual Chemistry

10th - Geometry and Conceptual Physics or Algebra I-based physics

11th - Algebra II and Biology

12th - Precalculus and AP Physics B (Algebra II-based physics)

[Lanny]

I strongly suggest as much Math as is possible. As much Physics as is possible. And, Chemistry. I know 4 people who are Chemical Engineers.

 

Engineering school has lots of prerequiste courses. If one is behind, one goes into the Remedial track..... I suspect that is common, in Engineering schools. GL

[qfbrenda]

I don't know if we'll do 2 math classes at once or double up, but I'm glad to know either would work. I'm still waiting on BJU's answer.

 

About the conceptual chemistry... from researching, it seems that class is for non-science majors. So why would that make sense for him? BJU suggests biology before chem, so I guess I'm confused about why I should switch those around. I'm ok with doing chemistry first if that is the best way but I don't understand why we should then choose a science that isn't for science majors. :confused:

[regentrude]

About the conceptual chemistry... from researching, it seems that class is for non-science majors. So why would that make sense for him?...but I don't understand why we should then choose a science that isn't for science majors. :confused:

 

The College course Conceptual Chemistry is a class for non science majors. Your son is in high school - he is not a college science major. A college course for non-majors is just fine for high school. (Btw, there is also a high school version of conceptual chemistry, not that there is much difference)

 

There is no reason why you would want to choose a course for science majors in your situation, because such a course would have math prerequisites far beyond what he has taken. Taking a science course for majors as a high school student is something I would only recommend for exceptionally strong students with a strong math background, and even for those it will be difficult.

Edited October 30, 2012 by regentrude

[qfbrenda]

Thanks for the explanation. :)

 

I'm wishing I had known that it's now common for 9th graders to have already finished algebra 1.

[Whoareyou]

I have a STEM kiddo. I would focus on not only math and science but as much computer programming as you can. If you can design an engineering class that would be bonus as well. Or if you can find something like a Lego team, robotics team - something where your kiddo can apply his skills, that will go a huge distance for him.

Around here high school kids still do Lego competition.

[TheApprentice]

For an engineer, I would not do two years of biology in high school. Ideally, I would start with algebra based physics, then chem, then bio, and an advanced physics course in 12th grade. If that is not possible because the student does not yet have enough math, you would have to start with bio. For most students, math is the limiting factor in the science progression; it is the only reason why many begin with bio - there are no logical reasons otherwise.

 

I would use anatomy as a high school science only for a student interested in biological engineering or medicine related fields.

 

What's in bold is our plan. Ds is using Derek Owen's algebra based physics right now as a 9th grader.

[amy58103]

I’m not a homeschooler. I don’t even have any kids of my own. (I stumbled upon these boards during my own self-education explorations.) But I am a Civil Engineer, so I thought it might be worthwhile to offer my perspective:

 

1. I agree with everyone that Math and Physics are very important for future engineering students. However, I would not rush through the introductory math classes just to get calculus (or calculus-based physics) on their high school transcript. It’s far more import to take the time to build a STRONG foundation in basic algebra, geometry, and trigonometry. Furthermore, the math sequence at most engineering schools starts with Calculus I. Provided your student has a strong pre-calculus course in high school, they should do just fine.

 

2. Engineering students take a lot of courses. And most courses build upon topics taught in previous courses. So, if a student struggles through Calculus II, they are going to struggle in their Junior and Senior year engineering courses. While it is completely doable to finish an engineering program in 8 semesters ( 4 years), many students will take advantage of summer (or mini winter sessions) to take some of their humanities electives. This gives them more time to focus on their engineering classes during the regular semester.

 

3. I would disagree with @Whoyouare and say that “high-school†engineering courses are [mostly] useless. (Sorry!) I would not think of these as academic classes. Instead, these are more like clubs, and are probably less effective than something like a Lego Club. One good thing about these types of courses is that they almost always involve some kind of group work. Engineering schools love making students work in groups, so this is an important skill to learn in high school.

 

4. I would strongly agree with @Whoyouare that some experience with computer programming is very useful. At a bare minimum, the student should be very familiar with the multitude of functions available in Microsoft Excel (or similar spreadsheet type programs). A computer programing course in any language will work (eg. C++, Java, Python). Or even a course in web design.

 

5. Engineering students need to be able to think spatially. They need to be able to envision what a 2-D drawing will look like in 3-D space, or take a 3-D object and sketch it in a 2-D space. Courses CAD or ArcGIS are very useful. The aforementioned Lego Club or “Engineering Club†also help develop this skill.

 

So back to the original question, if I was in your situation, my high school math/science plan would look like this:

 

9th Grade: Algebra I and Chemistry (High-School or Conceptual)

10th Grade: Geometry and Biology (possibly AP*)

11th Grade: Algebra II (with basic Trigonometry) and AP Chemistry**

12th Grade Pre-Calculus (and start Calc I if there is time) and AP Physics***

 

* While the content of AP Biology isn’t really all that useful for engineering students (unless they are going into something like bio-mechanical engr), the skills learned in the laboratory portion (eg. experiment design, formal lab reports, oral presentations, etc) will be very useful for the student in their engineering laboratory classes. (Most college Chemistry and Physics labs are of the plug-and-chug variety.)

 

** AP Chemistry covers A LOT of material. I would strongly recommend completing a high school course in chemistry before attempting the AP course.

 

*** Starting in the 2014-2015 school year, the College Board will no longer offer the Physics AB exam. Instead, this course is being replaced with two courses: Physics I and Physics II. The intent is for each of these courses to be one-year in length, but a student can take both exams in one year. The new courses are both algebra-based (as opposed to the calculus-based BC exam).

[qfbrenda]

Thank you for that helpful list, Amy. :) And thank you for who have chimed it. I really appreciate your patience with me. I think I have a tentative plan...

 

9th:

conceptual chem

algebra 1

 

10th:

biology

geometry

maybe algebra 2 if he did well with algebra 1

 

11th:

chemistry

algebra or trig

class or other training in Excel

 

12th:

physics

trig or calculus

computer programming

 

Am I on the right track?

 

 

My son definitely has spatial abilities. One of his favorite things to do is take a 2D picture and recreate it in 3D form with Knex. I know they are just toys but he makes some amazing things. :D

[kiana]

1. I agree with everyone that Math and Physics are very important for future engineering students. However, I would not rush through the introductory math classes just to get calculus (or calculus-based physics) on their high school transcript. It’s far more import to take the time to build a STRONG foundation in basic algebra, geometry, and trigonometry.

 

I do agree here. I wouldn't rush faster than he can. But I think there's a difference between 'rushing' and just not taking summers off. I wouldn't take summers off from math.

[Storm Bay]

I don't know if we'll do 2 math classes at once or double up, but I'm glad to know either would work. I'm still waiting on BJU's answer.

 

About the conceptual chemistry... from researching, it seems that class is for non-science majors. So why would that make sense for him? BJU suggests biology before chem, so I guess I'm confused about why I should switch those around. I'm ok with doing chemistry first if that is the best way but I don't understand why we should then choose a science that isn't for science majors. :confused:

 

The College course Conceptual Chemistry is a class for non science majors. Your son is in high school - he is not a college science major. A college course for non-majors is just fine for high school. (Btw, there is also a high school version of conceptual chemistry, not that there is much difference)

.

Regentrude is correct. Conceptual Chemistry for liberal arts college students is a strong text that my eldest did her freshman year at home, even though she already had Algebra 1. She is planning to major in math, not engineering, and ended up doing math based Physics her junior year. Since many of the labs called for equipment we didn't have, we did the Microchem labs (tame to some) so that she could do them at the kitchen table with several other homeschooled teens.

 

There are teens who can do the math for these subjects that don't really understand the conceptual aspects, and this book helps reduce that problem.

[suzielou]

9th-Biology with Algebra I

10th-Chemistry with Algebra II and Geometry

11th-Physics with Trig/Pre-Cal

12th-AP Physics or AP Chemistry with AP Cal

 

Our school district didn't offer eighth grade Algebra, so when we moved in High School, I was automatically ineligible for some classes. They let me take Algebra II and Geometry at the same time in tenth so that I could take AP Cal. It worked great, since neither is a prerequisite for the other.