Struggling with Family-integrated church issues (m)

[Sarah CB]

I know we just had that great thread on Youth Group - why or why not? I've been pondering that and have also just finished reading Family Driven Faith by Dr. Voddie Baucham. I've also listened to a bunch of his stuff from the Colorado conference. I really like what he has to say about the authority and responsibility of the family. I do believe that it is our primary role to disciple and raise our children, but I don't know that having our kids attend Sunday school or youth is negating that responsibility. If we're doing our utmost to disciple our kids at home then what would be the downside to having our kids attend Sunday school or youth group?

 

Right now, I look at Sunday school as an opportunity for the kids to enjoy crafts, singing, and games with other kids their age in a nurturing environment.

 

Same with youth group. It's an area where I feel safe allowing my 12 year old the freedom to get together with friends and do some fun things with solid supervision. I am not sure that learning about our faith at youth, in addition to solid teaching at home, is going to have any negative effects.

 

But something about age-segregation doesn't sit well with me...

 

So, can anyone share with me why they decided to go to a fully family-integrated model?

 

Thanks.

[Michelle in MO]

I really like what he has to say about the authority and responsibility of the family. I do believe that it is our primary role to disciple and raise our children, but I don't know that having our kids attend Sunday school or youth is negating that responsibility. If we're doing our utmost to disciple our kids at home then what would be the downside to having our kids attend Sunday school or youth group?

 

Right now, I look at Sunday school as an opportunity for the kids to enjoy crafts, singing, and games with other kids their age in a nurturing environment.

 

Same with youth group. It's an area where I feel safe allowing my 12 year old the freedom to get together with friends and do some fun things with solid supervision. I am not sure that learning about our faith at youth, in addition to solid teaching at home, is going to have any negative effects.

 

But something about age-segregation doesn't sit well with me...

 

I personally think it's ideal for a church to have both, if at all possible.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with you----I personally like a well-run Sunday School and youth group; I think both provide a wonderful opportunity for kids of all ages to be taught various aspects of their faith in an environment of fun, while spending time with other kids of their own ages. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

 

I think a good church can incorporate elements of both perspectives; i.e., it's possible to have Sunday school and youth group in which the kids are with kids of their own age, while at the same time having church functions which integrate and appeal to all ages. Church potlucks, picnics, volleyball, fundraisers, etc., require everyone to pitch in and participate and provide opportunities for all ages to meet and get to know one another.

 

When it comes to church sermons, sometimes my kids, due to their age/maturity (or lack thereof), have gotten completely lost and even bored, despite the fact that the pastor is trying to communicate something very valuable. In that respect, Sunday Schools and youth groups can help bridge that gap until the kids are at a riper age and able to better appreciate the depth of what the minister is saying.

 

I think my ideal for a healthy church is where elements of both perspectives are incorporated. If the kids in Sunday Schools and youth groups can't relate to the rest of the church, then you have problems with age segregation and that's something that probably needs to be addressed by the church as a whole. In other words, the leadership might need to say, "How can we incorporate these kids into the church as a whole?" On the other hand, if the church is trying to implement the other model but for some reason or another it's simply not working, it might not be a bad idea to take a serious look at implementing a good Sunday School and youth group program in order to reach the kids and not lose them in the process.

 

I hope these thoughts make sense!

[Ellie]

I don't mind age-segregated *Sunday school." I don't mind age-segregated, directed Bible study or other programs such as Missionettes or AWANA.

 

So, on a Sunday morning, all of us going to our own Sunday school classes doesn't bother me; on Wednesdays, the dc going to AWANA/Royal Rangers/Missionettes, older dc to a *Bible study,* and we adults to a Bible study doesn't bother me.

 

Teen-aged dc sitting over *there* in a group during the worship service instead of sitting with their families...*that* bothers me. Wednesday/midweek general goofing off, with some "worship" thrown in...*that* bothers me. Sunday night "worship," with mostly goofing off, some "worship," some sort of "preaching*....*that* bothers me. Teen-aged dc playing in their own "praise bands" instead of being part of the musicians during the morning and evening worship services...*that* bothers me (especially when those musicians are in their early 20s...they are adults and should be in with the adults).

 

And the whole "youth group" mentality, where the dc think they are all that and they can't lower themselves to talk to adults or younger dc, *that* bothers me, too. They need to apply those "social skills" which they are supposedly learning in school to actual IRL situations, KWIM?

[Jami]

We don't attend a family-integrated church, but we've always attended very family-supportive churches. Churches where the members take very seriously the responsibilities of helping one another bring up covenant children. Part of each infant baptism includes the members agreeing to come alongside the parents to nurture and teach the covenant children.

 

Sunday School is one opportunity for those vows to be lived out. Part of the age segregation (and ours is loose because we're a small church and there can be 2-3 grades in a class) is to make teaching children at their understanding a little bit more effective. I'm not sure about youth groups, I think young adults in the adult classes can be a great addition. Again, I've only been in small churches, so youth group might have included 7-12th grades and I think that provides younger youths with the opportunity to be mentored by some of the more mature teens and for the older teens to take the youngers under their wing to encourage.

 

Our former church used summer Sunday School as a time to enjoy a family-integrated class. One summer the asst. pastor led parents and children (well 1st grade or so and up) through the Narnia books. It was much enjoyed by all.

 

While I firmly believe the family is the primary spiritual unit for the nurture and upbringing of children, I think one has to be careful to not elevate the family unit over the unity of the body itself. Christ will return for one body of believers, no longer to be separated by family, even marriage will be gone in heaven. I don't think God wants us to worship the family (not saying you are Sarah, I just see hints of that in some circles).

 

I personally think that it can be very helpful for children and teens to have other adults come alongside their parents affirming the things they're being taught at home. As long as you're in a church where your teachings as a parent aren't likely to be thrown aside. Susan Schaeffer Macauley (daughter of Edith and Francis Schaeffer) talks in her books about the huge impact that her Sunday School teacher (Nancy Barker) had on her spiritual understanding. And I'm sure she was being well-taught in the home.

 

I guess I just think we need to be careful to not elevate certain aspects of Christian living above the gospel itself, a family-integrated church may (or may not be) more worshipful and faithful than a church which uses age-segregation or youth groups in a thoughtful way to come alongside families to support their teaching at home.

 

And *personally* I love attending a women's Bible study with my peers (other women, not age-peers necessarily) without my children present. Or Sunday School with other adults where meaty topics can be dealt with. And when it's time for the worship service, it is a joy to be together as a family and be the primary instructor to my children on how we worship our God.

 

My thoughts, for what they're worth. :001_smile:

 

Jami

[M&M]

I know we just had that great thread on Youth Group - why or why not? I've been pondering that and have also just finished reading Family Driven Faith by Dr. Voddie Baucham. I've also listened to a bunch of his stuff from the Colorado conference. I really like what he has to say about the authority and responsibility of the family. I do believe that it is our primary role to disciple and raise our children, but I don't know that having our kids attend Sunday school or youth is negating that responsibility. If we're doing our utmost to disciple our kids at home then what would be the downside to having our kids attend Sunday school or youth group?

 

Right now, I look at Sunday school as an opportunity for the kids to enjoy crafts, singing, and games with other kids their age in a nurturing environment.

 

Same with youth group. It's an area where I feel safe allowing my 12 year old the freedom to get together with friends and do some fun things with solid supervision. I am not sure that learning about our faith at youth, in addition to solid teaching at home, is going to have any negative effects.

 

But something about age-segregation doesn't sit well with me...

 

So, can anyone share with me why they decided to go to a fully family-integrated model?

 

Thanks.

 

I wish I had some answers, but I am still asking questions. Dh just spent time today talking about this exact same thing. It is the age segregation thing that bothers me too.

 

Voddie Baucham has some compelling arguments, but is he right...is there a right or wrong here. My problem is that I can see both sides, but I have to choose one. There seems to be no middle ground, if we join youth group we are in, if we don't we are making a statement that will not be well received.

 

I am going to take a nap.

[Nestof3]

Well, we attend a family-integrated meeting -- home church, and we really get the best of all worlds. Our kids have a blast playing with dozens of other children, they get supervision from adults, and they get to interact with adults as well.

 

During the meeting, the children are welcome to request songs, they are called upon to read scripture, they can comment on the various teachings (as long as the child shows some maturity, if you know what I mean), and the young adult men are encouraged to bring teaching as well.

 

Last week, our 18 year old brought a message about running and finishing the race -- about encouraging and exhorting other believers to run as well. He primarily aimed the message at the children. He described in detail the Battle of Marathon (his strength is history) and compared the runner to we Christians running the race -- though our enemy is most often sin rather than the Persians.

 

So, I think we have a great setup!

[LisaNY]

I personally think it's ideal for a church to have both, if at all possible.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with you----I personally like a well-run Sunday School and youth group; I think both provide a wonderful opportunity for kids of all ages to be taught various aspects of their faith in an environment of fun, while spending time with other kids of their own ages. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

 

I think a good church can incorporate elements of both perspectives; i.e., it's possible to have Sunday school and youth group in which the kids are with kids of their own age, while at the same time having church functions which integrate and appeal to all ages. Church potlucks, picnics, volleyball, fundraisers, etc., require everyone to pitch in and participate and provide opportunities for all ages to meet and get to know one another.

 

When it comes to church sermons, sometimes my kids, due to their age/maturity (or lack thereof), have gotten completely lost and even bored, despite the fact that the pastor is trying to communicate something very valuable. In that respect, Sunday Schools and youth groups can help bridge that gap until the kids are at a riper age and able to better appreciate the depth of what the minister is saying.

 

I think my ideal for a healthy church is where elements of both perspectives are incorporated. If the kids in Sunday Schools and youth groups can't relate to the rest of the church, then you have problems with age segregation and that's something that probably needs to be addressed by the church as a whole. In other words, the leadership might need to say, "How can we incorporate these kids into the church as a whole?" On the other hand, if the church is trying to implement the other model but for some reason or another it's simply not working, it might not be a bad idea to take a serious look at implementing a good Sunday School and youth group program in order to reach the kids and not lose them in the process.

 

I hope these thoughts make sense!

 

I totally agree! We have both in our congregation. Once a child reaches Bar/Bat Mitzvah age, they can stay upstairs for the main message instead of going to Shabbat School downstairs. Children are not dismissed until after worship and the D'var, which is reading from the Torah along with a 5 minute commentary. We have home groups, Sisterhood meetings, and a Men's Breakfast which are open to all ages. We do tons of things together as a congregation, which are all-inclusive.

[Kim in SouthGa]

until a couple of years ago, we had always attended a chuch were Sunday school and anything aside from a basic, family integrated worship service was frowned upon, and even thought unBiblical by some. We then went to the opposite extreme, a mega church were you ride together and then split up and don't see each other util noon when it's time to go home. I think there has to be a happy medium. Worship and Biblical teaching is absolutely, without question, the responsibility of the parents. If we are not teaching our kids at home, it really doesn't matter where we go to church. I personally prefer a family-integrated worship service on Sunday morning and night, and then seperate Bible studies that are optional. Of course, parents have to be able to control their children for this to work. I have been in services where a 2 year old was so distracting, absolutely screaming for way too long, and the mom didn't take him out. We accept that for the first year or two, there is going to be a lot of in and out, and training needs to go on at home, such as teaching toddlers to sit still during family devotions and read-alouds, so it is not totally foreign when we get to church. All of our kids have been able to sit through services about 90% of the time by the age of 18 months. That doesn't mean they were absolutely still and quiet-I don't think that is expected, anyway, in FI churches. But all the work is so worth it. I think it is very important for us to all be able to talk about the sermon together. Often when my kids go to a seperate service (we are looking for a church right now, and visiting all kinds, LOL) they can't even remember what the lesson was, or just some sketchy details. And in the really big churches that we have been to, the teachers had no control over the kids. My son, then 11, hated his class because the kids would not be quiet and he couldn't hear the lesson.

 

So what would be my perfect situation? I think a short, well-run, disciplined, age segregated (not necessarily 1st grade, 2nd grade, etc either-could be ages 8-11, etc) Bible study before services on Sunday morning and maybe one night a week. FI Sunday services. Occassional get togethers involving the whole family, like ice cream socials and stuff. I had a bad experience with youth groups as a teenager, so I'm still not sure how I feel about that. Maybe a couple of outings a year, like a Chrisitan concert or hiking or something.

[TravelingChris]

We have age based Sunday school but my family and a number of other families just do what is best for our family. For my children, not being with the siblings 24/7 is what is best. I know that when my children were younger, I looked forward to have Sunday school without little ones I had to take care of. They enjoyed doing crafts. When my children are around 11, they make decisions where they want to be. Because of the way Sunday Schools were set up, at that age but my oldest and my youngest decided to attend adult Sunday school with one of the parents. They weren't challenged in the regular age-based one. My middle was fortunate to be attending at a small chapel at the age in Belgium where she got appropriate lessons (it helped that the usual kids who attended were older than her by at least three years and so the lesson was geared older and turned out just right for her (( the class was very small)) ). Since we returned from our summer vacation, it turns out that my youngest Sunday school is now preschool trhough her age. Well she was already not learning anything and because her one age mate PCSed, she is older and much more knowledgeable about the Bible and Church history than her other classmates. She started attending the SS my dh attends where todays discussion was about the differences between anthropology and Christology. She doesn't understand it all but she is being challenged now. I attend a class where I am by far the youngest person by probably at least 15 years. My middle child goes to youth Sunday school sometimes but because she has to leave early for choir warm-up, she isn't there for more than half of it. She has been singing in adult choir for the last two years and she is joined with other youth for Christmas and Easter cantatas. At least one of the youth is in the adult praise band. Our church is in a denomination that many would reject outright because the main denomination is more liberal. But our pastor teaches a non-watered down Gospel and interlaces his sermons with quotes from people like CS Lewis. It is friendly to homeschoolers; the youth and seniors and everyone else is talking to each other; and it helps the less fortunate in the community and in the world. People come over and inquire how my daughters are doing. I am so happy that I was distracted by what some churches in the denomination are doing when this one is truely focusing on Christ and how we are to live our faith. (It is a UMC church which is funny since we are theoligically more in tune with Calvinists but this is where we feel God has led us to be).

[Erica in PA]

I know we just had that great thread on Youth Group - why or why not? I've been pondering that and have also just finished reading Family Driven Faith by Dr. Voddie Baucham. I've also listened to a bunch of his stuff from the Colorado conference. I really like what he has to say about the authority and responsibility of the family. I do believe that it is our primary role to disciple and raise our children, but I don't know that having our kids attend Sunday school or youth is negating that responsibility. If we're doing our utmost to disciple our kids at home then what would be the downside to having our kids attend Sunday school or youth group?

 

Right now, I look at Sunday school as an opportunity for the kids to enjoy crafts, singing, and games with other kids their age in a nurturing environment.

 

Same with youth group. It's an area where I feel safe allowing my 12 year old the freedom to get together with friends and do some fun things with solid supervision. I am not sure that learning about our faith at youth, in addition to solid teaching at home, is going to have any negative effects.

 

But something about age-segregation doesn't sit well with me...

 

So, can anyone share with me why they decided to go to a fully family-integrated model?

 

Thanks.

 

Coming from the other position, I have read Family Driven Faith as well as other materials from a family-integrated perspective, and it doesn't ring completely true to me. I think youth groups and activities for kids can be a wonderful resource, and are only a problem if parents abdicate their responsibilities. To me, the position that any age segregated faith-related activities is wrong, doesn't hold water. It would be like saying, pulling your children out of public school and homeschooling isn't enough, it is wrong to even have your child in a once a week co-op because it's your responsibility to educate your child. Just as a homeschooling parent can use a weekly co-op as a resource, I believe a Christian parents can use youth or child-related activities as a resource, with much benefit.

 

Of course, a lot depends on the kinds of activities, especially when it comes to youth groups. Some are beneficial, others are not. But to rule them out completely, across the board, as being *wrong*, strikes me as rather extreme, personally.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

Where we are, we don't have any choice. Our kids are too old for the children's activities, and there aren't any youth things. Also, being homeschooled, we don't get a lot of interaction with other kids. It's been a little difficult. I really wish there were youth group activities and a service for our kids. I wish we had the option.

[TravelingChris]

This is such an old thread that we have moved and I have a new name and new location. My name when I made my post was Christina in Space Coast and I was in Space Coast, FL. Since it is over a year old, I am now TransientChris and I now live in Northern VA.

 

Why are threads over a year old being resurrected?

[tex-mex]

EDITED: Awwww... man! I fell for the old thread being ressurrected. AUUUUuugh.

Note to others -- see post #10 for the answer to this. I think she just wanted to be a part of the topic.

 

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I do agree with Erica in PA that to label all youth groups or Sunday School as not healthy is a slippery slope.

 

BTW, my local area has a family-integrated church model that meets on Saturdays. The only thing that bugs me

is they require dads to participate with sons. And moms to participate with daughters. I have no girls. And my hubby

travels on ministry quite often. Where does this leave my son and I? We can't participate in the FIC model. Bummer.

Edited October 5, 2009 by tex-mex

[Erica in PA]

EDITED: Awwww... man! I fell for the old thread being ressurrected. AUUUUuugh.

Note to others -- see post #10 for the answer to this. I think she just wanted to be a part of the topic.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do agree with Erica in PA that to label all youth groups or Sunday School as not healthy is a slippery slope.

 

BTW, my local area has a family-integrated church model that meets on Saturdays. The only thing that bugs me

is they require dads to participate with sons. And moms to participate with daughters. I have no girls. And my hubby

travels on ministry quite often. Where does this leave my son and I? We can't participate in the FIC model. Bummer.

 

Oh, yeah, me too! I didn't even look at the dates. Oh well... :tongue_smilie: