6 grade/11yo behind in writing skills- HELP!

[Sharon37127]

I have tried for 3 years to follow the writing portion of TWTM ON MY OWN using subject-based material. I have failed. My 11yo is seriously lacking in writing skills. He does fine with grammar, spelling, vocabulary, reading, etc- things that are either black & white or things that we can't help but do (like reading). Both sides of the writing process- creating sentences in response to the writing prompt (like narration questions, summaries...) & holding those thoughts in your head and getting them down on paper.

 

I have never used any of the formal curriculum SWB has created. I guess I felt I should reinvent the wheel or something. I am finally going to use the Complete Write series. I used the evaluations on PeaceHillPress.com to try and determine where my 11yo is (and my 8yo). We are barely scraping by the second level! Am I to understand this is second grade skill level? What can we do quickly catch up?

[ErinE]

It's not second grade materials. It's the second level of The Complete Writer series. If your ds needs work on his narration skills, Level 2 is the right place to start. Given his age, he may pick up the pace once he learns the process.

[cloversandlions]

:lurk5:

 

In the same boat here, except it's because dd has dyslexia. I'm going with the BraveWriter Arrow series for now. I'll probably add in MCT soon.

[Sharon37127]

Both steps are a struggle.

 

Narrations are limited to questions specifically answered in whatever passage we read. When asked anything more than that- such as, summarizing or picking out main ideas- I still get loads of details about anything and everything he can remember.

 

Dictation is limited to sentences as found at end of year/level 2 of Writing with Ease. This was a bit of a struggle. I am able to get a general idea of the selection I read to him for dictation. He remembers the general meaning of what we read, but not the word for word dictation. So, I really should start somewhere in level/year 2.

[justLisa]

WWE2 is surely not 2nd grade level. I mean granted some kids are using it in second but I don't really see it that way. Some kids in middle school in PS can't give good narrations and dictations.

 

You definitely want to start at 2. But you can accelerate it. It goes something like this:

 

Day 1 - Read him the passage and he gives narration

day 2 - copywork

day 3 - dictation

day 4 - narration and dictation.

 

What I did was day one, read passage, he gives dictation, AND copies his narration. Day 2 was day 4. This way I was doing it 2-3 times a week but leaving room for other things too.

[Alte Veste Academy]

My 11yo is seriously lacking in writing skills.What can we do quickly catch up?

 

Both steps are a struggle.

 

Narrations are limited to questions specifically answered in whatever passage we read. When asked anything more than that- such as, summarizing or picking out main ideas- I still get loads of details about anything and everything he can remember.

 

Dictation is limited to sentences as found at end of year/level 2 of Writing with Ease. This was a bit of a struggle. I am able to get a general idea of the selection I read to him for dictation. He remembers the general meaning of what we read, but not the word for word dictation. So, I really should start somewhere in level/year 2.

 

If I'm being completely honest here, I would not do WWE alone. The skills taught in WWE are enormously beneficial and I would absolutely use the program. However, spending a couple of years exclusively on WWE 2-3 is likely to get you a 13 year old who is still behind in writing. He will have gained valuable skills, yes, but he will not be writing at age/grade level. At your DS's age, I would get a sound, incremental writing program and start that simultaneously.

 

WWE2 is surely not 2nd grade level. I mean granted some kids are using it in second but I don't really see it that way. Some kids in middle school in PS can't give good narrations and dictations.

 

You definitely want to start at 2. But you can accelerate it. It goes something like this:

 

Day 1 - Read him the passage and he gives narration

day 2 - copywork

day 3 - dictation

day 4 - narration and dictation.

 

What I did was day one, read passage, he gives dictation, AND copies his narration. Day 2 was day 4. This way I was doing it 2-3 times a week but leaving room for other things too.

 

If you do only do WWE, definitely plan to accelerate. But I would still do something else too.

[justLisa]

And I had to click submit as I have a dd needing something....

 

but I have to put my plug in for IEW. I think the skills are valuable in WWE, but alone I just really don't think it always produces a "writer." Granted I did WWE2 in 2nd grade but still, DS could not write a single original thing on his own. After starting IEW it was like an instant light bulb.

 

I know it's pricey but it also has the option of a student intensive writing portion and the child can watch a DVD of Andrew Pudewa giving lessons to a class.

[justLisa]

If I'm being completely honest here, I would not do WWE alone. The skills taught in WWE are enormously beneficial and I would absolutely use the program. However, spending a couple of years exclusively on WWE 2-3 is likely to get you a 13 year old who is still behind in writing. He will have gained valuable skills, yes, but he will not be writing at age/grade level. At your DS's age, I would get a sound, incremental writing program and start that simultaneously.

 

 

 

If you do only do WWE, definitely plan to accelerate. But I would still do something else too.

 

You posted while I was coming back to say this same thing :tongue_smilie:

 

Definitely not enough for a 6th grader, but used along side something else would be good if you want to continue with it.

[Soror]

And I had to click submit as I have a dd needing something....

 

but I have to put my plug in for IEW. I think the skills are valuable in WWE, but alone I just really don't think it always produces a "writer." Granted I did WWE2 in 2nd grade but still, DS could not write a single original thing on his own. After starting IEW it was like an instant light bulb.

 

However, the goal of WWE2 is not to produce a creative independent writer. The scope and sequence is not the same as ps. I'd be hesitant to use that alone at regular pace for a 6th grader that is behind though.

[Mrs Twain]

If I'm being completely honest here, I would not do WWE alone. The skills taught in WWE are enormously beneficial and I would absolutely use the program. However, spending a couple of years exclusively on WWE 2-3 is likely to get you a 13 year old who is still behind in writing. He will have gained valuable skills, yes, but he will not be writing at age/grade level. At your DS's age, I would get a sound, incremental writing program and start that simultaneously.

 

 

 

If you do only do WWE, definitely plan to accelerate. But I would still do something else too.

 

And I had to click submit as I have a dd needing something....

 

but I have to put my plug in for IEW. I think the skills are valuable in WWE, but alone I just really don't think it always produces a "writer." Granted I did WWE2 in 2nd grade but still, DS could not write a single original thing on his own. After starting IEW it was like an instant light bulb.

 

I know it's pricey but it also has the option of a student intensive writing portion and the child can watch a DVD of Andrew Pudewa giving lessons to a class.

 

:iagree: IEW would be my recommendation as well.

[redsquirrel]

A 6th grader? I would use WWE at what ever level you think is appropriate. Those narration skills are very important. But, I would also start the student working through WWS1. I would consider each to be a separate subject.

 

WWS1 can be challenge, but it isn't beyond what a typical 6th grader should be able to achieve. My son's friends are writing much longer assignments in public school. It's not being taught as well, but they are producing at a much higher volume. WWS1 is focused and you get a great return on the work done.

 

You say your child is behind, but you don't say that there is an organic reason for the delay. If he is not dealing with any reading or expressive delays then he should be able to manage WWS1 and WWE2. Just working through WWE2 would be super boring and not helping to pull him up to his grade level. WWE2 should only take a few mins a day. It takes my 7 year old a few mins ever day...less than 15. I think you can do both with a 6th grader.

[nansk]

I would try to do 1 week's worth of WWE lessons in 1 day.

 

Another writing series I have read good things about is Writing Skills by Diana Hanbury King. He should start with Book 1 or Book 2.

Edited October 16, 2012 by nansk
Added links to samples.

[Momling]

You might also think look into EPS "The Paragraph Book". It's a slow and gentle introduction to writing paragraphs for middle school students who are struggling.

[Sharon37127]

Thanks all for the recommendations and advice. I think we will just jump into WWE2 for a few months and see where that gets us and THEN add in an easy formal writing program.

[BlueTaelon]

I'm in the same boat with my 6th grader, I just got Bravewriter with the Arrow. I've never seen anything like it:)

[Colleen in NS]

I have tried for 3 years to follow the writing portion of TWTM ON MY OWN using subject-based material. ...What can we do quickly catch up?

 

You might like using the WWE Instructor Text as opposed to the workbooks. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/the-complete-writer-writing-with-ease-instructor-text.html It covers all four years, allows you to pick your own reading material as you have already been doing, and it tells you exactly how to conduct each week's lessons. It gives you a sample week, say, for Week 1, then tells you how to use that pattern for weeks 2-3. Week four would be another sample week with weeks 5-10 (or so) having you follow the week four teaching sample, but on your own materials. This also allows you to catch up, because let's say your student grasps the Weeks 4-10 skills in just a few weeks - then you can skip on to Week 11 sample week and do as much as he needs in that next clump of weeks.

 

As with the suggestions for the WWE workbooks, with the Instructor Text you can also cover two days in one, or three days in one, or whatever.

 

Thanks all for the recommendations and advice. I think we will just jump into WWE2 for a few months and see where that gets us and THEN add in an easy formal writing program.

 

WWE *is* a formal writing program. It teaches basic skills one needs before moving on in writing skills. As for adding another program, you can give him more writing practice just by giving him more writing practice. In other words, he does the WWE lesson(s) for the day. Then, in other parts of the week, he can practice narration and dictation skills, gained from his work in WWE, in his content-area reading. In fact, the more he practices this (and he may easily be able to do this extra practice each week), the faster he will gain the skills and be able to move on to the next level of writing skills.

 

Someone mentioned using WWS alongside WWE. I would not do this. WWS does start off with reviewing how to do narrations, but it quickly moves on to more sophisticated skills which I think are very difficult to do if the student is not well-practiced in narration and dictation (and being able to merge the skills together himself - three or four sentences of thoughts into words combined with words on paper, without your intervention). I would spend the time working through WWE two and three in an accelerated (and extra practice) fashion, and then move into WWS 1 (you can safely skip WWE 4 at his age if he solidly grasps narration and dictation merged together on his own).

[Alte Veste Academy]

Thanks all for the recommendations and advice. I think we will just jump into WWE2 for a few months and see where that gets us and THEN add in an easy formal writing program.

 

Based on what you've said, I think this is a great solution. Yes, WWE is a "formal" curriculum, of course, but completing it will not get your DS grade-level in short order. If he was younger...maybe 4th, I'd say no biggie. But in 6th, I personally would not want to take the longer road of doing programs sequentially rather than simultaneously. Although I've only been using it a short while, I can definitely get on board with the suggestion of IEW. If your son struggles with capturing main ideas, definitely work on it (WWE is great for this), but IEW begins by pulling out key words sentence by sentence. It is extremely incremental in this way, and since you say that your son's mechanics are solid, he could be writing fluently and confidently pretty quickly using IEW's techniques.

 

Since it has not gone well for you trying to do WTM style writing, pulling material from his subjects, I would definitely advocate the workbooks. They are more likely to get done, easy peasy, and you can accelerate with them just as easily as with the instructor book.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Alte Veste Academy

[Annabel Lee]

Sharon, I could have written your post verbatim! My 11 yr-old 6th grader is behind in writing due to me having the same struggle implementing WTM writing.

 

I can share my plan to move forward with you, but I can't suggest it yet. I'm all ears on what others commenting here think of it. My 6th grader is also in WWE 2 (workbook). We are going at an accelerated pace of "however much he can tolerate", from a whole "WWE week" per day to a minimum of at least 2 "WWE days" per day. To get up to speed and comfortable with other writing, I'm having him do the writing lessons from R&S English 3, 4, and 5 at a rate of 1 writing lesson every 1 - 3 days dep. on length. We skip all the grammar lessons because he uses FLL4 for grammar. R&S writing is blessed off by TWTM as a writing program to use beginning in 3rd grade & continuing into logic stage (along with content subject summaries, outlines, etc.), although I don't think SWB ever imagined anyone would use it for the writing alone.

 

I'm also implementing cross-curricular writing better this year using a concise framework of weekly instructions I typed up based on the TWTM. I need that list that tells me what step to do next, when to do it, etc. I've got him writing in history, science, and literature, but I have to rotate them weekly because of the other writing. My goal with all of this is for me to read the R&S writing lessons ahead of time and apply it to his content subject writing as often as possible, to streamline and not have this extra, seemingly arbitrary writing lesson in the mix. I haven't managed that yet, so we're just limping along with the R&S lessons as written.

 

He should be done with R&S 3, 4, & 5 writing by mid-Feb. At that point, if he still needs more practice before starting WWS1, I'll have to stop & evaluate whether Evan-Moor materials will do the job or if I should pop in some IEW-SWI A DVDs. I know we can't simply skip ahead, but I do feel the panic.

 

I'm curious if anyone knows whether the workbook or the WWE instructor text (hardcover) seems to require more from the student than the other? I vaguely remember that being said somewhere around here, but I could be wrong.

 

OP, I hope this helps give you some ideas on how to move forward after you get WWE2 flowing smoothly.

[Colleen in NS]

I'm curious if anyone knows whether the workbook or the WWE instructor text (hardcover) seems to require more from the student than the other? I vaguely remember that being said somewhere around here, but I could be wrong.

 

About panic. :) I have taken my kids through varying combinations of the following: implementing WTM writing ideas before WWE came out, WWE Instructor Text (I accelerated one kid through it when he was in 5th-6th grade and took the other kid through at her grade-level pace) when I realized it did a much better job than I was doing with implementing the WTM ideas, incorporating R&S writing lessons cross-curricularly using a similar list to Annabel Lee's, and now using WWS and are beta-testers for level 2. Based on our experiences and what I see in WWS, I would just like to say that I don't think you, Sharon and Annabel Lee, have to panic about your 11 year olds. :grouphug:

 

I think that WWE, for most middle grade students, is pretty easy to accelerate through, esp. with the Instructor Text. I also think that WWS covers much of what you find randomly scattered in R&S writing lessons, but in a more logical fashion. More hand-holding. More applicable - the book makes it obvious that you should *use* the charts of, say, how to write a scientific description, to write your own scientific descriptions cross-curricularly.

 

As for the "don't panic" part - if your kids accelerate through WWE in, say, a year or two, and then start on WWS in, say, 8th grade, they still have plenty of time to get a great writing-skills foundation. The way WWS is written is so efficient. (as an aside, there are many older jr. high and early high schoolers using WWS - SWB said her own 9th grader last year was using it) In fact, I read recently where SWB said that most of what she wants in WWS will be in the first three levels, with the fourth being optional or for those kids reaching that level in 8th grade. I concluded that if a kid is getting to WWS 4 in 10th or 11th, he could actually skip it and still move on to some rhetoric study and still have had an excellent foundation for rhetoric study.

 

If I were starting all over again, I would not even bother with the R&S writing lessons - trying to implement those along with trying to implement the WTM ideas was difficult for me, and knowing now what I know about WWE and WWS, R&S writing lessons seem like an unnecessary burden. Because it's all going to be covered in WWE and WWS anyway, more efficiently and sensibly. (Annabel Lee, carry on, though, if there are specific reasons they are helpful to your student - this is just my own experience) I would just carry on with WWE (acceleratedly for middle grade kids if they are up to it) and WWS, and implement those skills cross-curricularly. To me it's just so much easier than trying to juggle two or three programs, when one, applied to content areas, is sufficient and will meet the same end goals.

 

Annabel Lee, about the Instructor Text vs. the workbooks. I think because the workbooks have everything laid out, they may seem to require more of the student. With the Instructor Text, though, you can tailor the precision to your student, and maybe have an easier time accelerating because of it. I host a monthly classically-educating Moms' support group, and last night one of the moms was commenting that the workbooks were exhausting her kids, because then they would also move on to doing narrations/dictations in their history/science/literature. I explained about the Instructor Text to her (which she had but had never looked at!), and she was so excited to see that she could combine writing instruction with history and science study and not have a bunch of extra work to do. I think the IT vs. the workbooks just boils down to personal preference. But when I was accelerating my then-5th/6th grader, only the IT was published, and it was great. I don't think I'd have used the workbooks for acceleration had they been published.

 

Hope this all makes sense. Mostly just trying to encourage you two not to panic. :)

[Sharon37127]

Based on our experiences and what I see in WWS, I would just like to say that I don't think you, Sharon and Annabel Lee, have to panic about your 11 year olds. :grouphug:

 

Most appreciated! This is what I needed to hear. Even after 3 1/2 years of HSing, I still get into that "they are behind" mentality. You gotta catch up or someone's going to be standing over you waiting to- I don't exactly what, but it will be bad. If I stop and think about it, if he were in PS, he may be behind (may or may not be as much), but he would be LEFT THERE. No one to lead him in the right direction. Thanks so much.

[Penguin]

My DS11 still needs to work on his summarizing skills, but I didn't see the need to drop out of WWS and drop back to *any* level of WWE. WWS has so much more going on than just summarizing, and DS is just doing great with all the other aspects: outlining, thesaurus use, incorporating the transition words, etc. I am glad that we just kept going. Just something to think about! I am having him do cross-curricular summarizing for the extra practice.

 

But I am still wondering if he is "behind." What about compare-and contrast essays? Persuasive essays? Sigh.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Penguin

[Colleen in NS]

Annabel Lee, Sharon, and Penguin,

 

I was searching for where I had read about how doing WWS 1-3 would be enough for older kids for prep for rhetoric study, and look what I found:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showpost.php?p=4214900&postcount=271

 

:D

 

(Penguin, there is a blurb in there about how WWS is full preparation for persuasive essays)

Edited October 17, 2012 by Colleen in NS

[LibraryLover]

I am a huge WWS fan.

 

Wordly Wise is a vocabulary program, and I think it works very well with WWS.