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in content subjects. Information just doesn't seem to soak in. How do I help her remember the information we cover?

 

My ds learns by reading. He reads it he remembers it. We might have to discuss to help him apply and generalize that information, but the facts are there to build on.

 

Then my dd comes along. She is a natural writer, she does fine with math. However, when she reads for content, she learns nothing. We have read out-loud (taking turns), I have read to her, she has read silently, she has outlined, she hast taken notes. We have tried discussing each concept. We have tried discussing after larger sections. She has taken notes and answered review questions, but when I ask her to regurgitate the information a few days later, no matter what we did, she doesn't have it.

 

I think what I may be missing is more visual or kinesthetic learning. When I have done learning style tests, she comes out strongest in auditory learning. She is a Sociable Sue in Cathy Duffy terminology, with strong Wiggly Willy tendencies. She is a child always in motion. I don't stop her motion. I let her keep something in her hands or sit on a ball or do whatever she needs to to focus. That doesn't seem to matter either.

 

So again, how do I help her remember what we cover? Someone give me some ideas!

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Sounds like she might learn by doing instead of by hearing and reading about it?

With a child like this, I would try:

History reenactments, museums, projects, build models, make costumes

Science experiments, plant collection, dissections, rock collections, science centers, cave tours, nature hikes

build circuits, disassemble and rebuild computers from parts, help with construction....

Anything where she can do something instead of just passively absorbing information might make the information she reads stick better becasue she can put it in context with an activity.

 

I would try to have her do memorization work, such as foreign language vocabulary or poetry, by listening to it while walking.

Edited by regentrude
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Sounds like she might learn by doing instead of by hearing and reading about it?

With a child like this, I would try:

History reenactments, museums, projects, build models, make costumes

Science experiments, plant collection, dissections, rock collections, science centers, cave tours, nature hikes

build circuits, disassemble and rebuild computers from parts, help with construction....

Anything where she can do something instead of just passively absorbing information might make the information she reads stick better becasue she can put it in context with an activity.

 

I would try to have her do memorization work, such as foreign language vocabulary or poetry, by listening to it while walking.

 

Yup. I think I've talked with you about how we're doing physical science this year, doing only the labs from BJU and CIA and tossing the book. Sounds horrible, but makes sense when you consider my dd can tell you about every lab we did back when she was 6. Seriously. I'm done beatin' her over the head with books.

 

A nifty little read for you "Why Don't Students Like School?" http://www.amazon.com/Why-Dont-Students-Like-School/dp/047059196X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1345860403&sr=8-1&keywords=why+don%27t+kids+like+school Your library might have it. Anyway, it has a chart showing that comprehension has nothing to do with reading level and is driven instead by prior knowledge. In other words, if she reads it after she has DONE it, she might engage and get those channels going across her brain and make the connections. But just to read a bunch of words, nope, not enough. I guess that's not perfect logic, but there you go.

 

And yes, history with my dd has always been immersive: cook it, wear it, live it, feel it. But we were talking science, right?

 

Sorry, I'm just very tired. You do know there are *names* for "my bright kid is wiggly and uber-creative and seems to need hands-on and retains nothing when they slog through a textbook they're not interested in" right? When you're to the point where it's frustrating, sometimes it means it's time to take the plunge and get the evals.

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GEMS Guides and TOPS guides are the best for hands on! GEMS guides always have a story weaved into the program. For instance in Mystery Festival you have to print out foot prints and make a "crime scene" from where the teddy bear has been stolen. Crime Scene Chemisty involves a ransom note for a stolen dinosaur exhibit (that's the story we used, there are others...)

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Ok so part of the reason that this is so hard is that ds cannot learn by doing. He is ASD amidst a slew of other labels. We homeschool because he couldn't learn in a classroom. She was a straight A student in ps. True, her teachers sometimes took away her chair because she couldn't remain sitting. How is it that a classroom worked, but my homeschool classroom doesn't? How do I Physically involve her in learning all the time without stopping all learning for ds?

 

I think dd could be labeled ADHD, but most professionals wouldn't. It would be very mild. She is attentive in any classroom or group. I had an ECSE teacher (she was a reverse mainstream) put in writing that she is "perfect". I think part of the issue is her highly social nature. She actually does better with lots of distracting people around. The rest of the family are introverts.

 

Regentrude, I love the idea of walking and working on memorization. She likes to jog on the treadmill. We could do that.

 

Elizabeth, if you are dumping the textbook, how do you know what to cover and how much? This is a child interested in a science field. I don't want to blow that for her.

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Elizabeth, It was late when I read your post last night and I didn't follow the link. I've actually already read that book. The thing is, all my reading of material like that was based around ds. Now I have to rethink it for dd who always seemed to fit the "girl who does well in school" model, but is now struggling.

 

I should also add, laziness is a definite part of the issue. She doesn't want to work at school. If I could find a way to better motivate her...

 

I will take a look at the GEMS and TOPS guides and see if I can integrate some of the project stuff. I'm not a project person and this is such a huge stretch for me.

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Ok so part of the reason that this is so hard is that ds cannot learn by doing. ... How do I Physically involve her in learning all the time without stopping all learning for ds?

 

Looking at the ages of your students, I really see no reason that they must be schooled together. My kids are two years apart, have very different learning styles, use different materials and have zero overlap in subjects.

I would expect a 10th grader to be able to work independently for a large part, which would allow you to accommodate his sister's special learning style.

 

What puzzles me is your description of her school experience, because that does not seem to suggest that she can not retain audiovisual information- otherwise school would not have worked. If she can learn well in a school environment, I would try to find her an opportunity to take some classes together with other students. May I ask why you made the decision to homeschool her? I understand your motivation that school did not work for DS- but why did you pull out DD as well?

Edited by regentrude
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Looking at the ages of your students, I really see no reason that they must be schooled together. My kids are two years apart, have very different learning styles, use different materials and have zero overlap in subjects.

I would expect a 10th grader to be able to work independently for a large part, which would allow you to accommodate his sister's special learning style.

 

What puzzles me is your description of her school experience, because that does not seem to suggest that she can not retain audiovisual information- otherwise school would not have worked. If she can learn well in a school environment, I would try to find her an opportunity to take some classes together with other students. May I ask why you made the decision to homeschool her? I understand your motivation that school did not work for DS- but why did you pull out DD as well?

 

I think that is a very reasonable question. She really made the decision. The first year I started homeshooling, it was just him. I pulled him because he couldn't work independently even for a few minutes. He needed constant help to stay on task. As I said, he comes with an armload of labels. After watching for a year, dd decided she wanted to homeschool too. She was very successful at ps but didn't like it and was bored. The gifted program didn't offer much. I thought I could challenge her more and also give her more flexibility since she is a competitive gymnast and spends a lot of time at the gym.

 

Ds has come a LONG way. He does now work independently quite a lot, but if he is left alone too long he loses his ability to focus.

 

This year, the only subject I had planned on them doing together is history. My plan included textbook reading and NROC courses. Textbook for him, audio for her, historical fiction and writing for both of them.

 

That said, if her science if very experiential, it is hard not to disrupt him. There isn't much in the way of museums in the area. We've been to Civil War reenactments and all the hands on science museums here and in St. Louis. Everything else has to be done at home and anything done in my home tends to be quite distracting to ds. I guess I'm just going to have to get over that.

 

You are right Regentrude. I need to let ds fly on his own more and focus more on dd right now.

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That said, if her science if very experiential, it is hard not to disrupt him.

 

 

He needs labs for his science courses anyway, so maybe they can do those together, with him doing more and deeper analysis, but with her being involved in the hands-on aspects? This way, both can benefit.

 

There isn't much in the way of museums in the area. We've been to Civil War reenactments and all the hands on science museums here and in St. Louis. Everything else has to be done at home .

 

I hear you.

 

Another thought: it might help her retention if she was not simply studying from a book or an online course, but if she could research a topic on her own, using a variety of sources, and then present her findings in an oral presentation or poster. I find that my DS is much more engaged in those activities than in textbook work. It would still involve reading and listening, but since she would be the one to choose the focus and materials, she might be more interested and engaged.

 

You might also want to have a look at lewelma's description of the scientific inquiries she does with her son:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showthread.php?t=361740&highlight=scientific+investigation

 

Maybe a hands-on, long term science project like this would be a good way to get your DD engaged.

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I once came across a suggestion when reading about the Robinson Curriculum and I thought it was an interesting/good idea. I haven't tried it...just remembered reading about it.

 

This was the Q and A:

 

Yes, I can attest to the merit of this method. It is what I do when I work with students in the learning center. Very often, just saying the problem out loud, or explaining what your question is to another person, is sufficient for the student to come up with an answer.

Great method... though I am not entirely sure how this would help with to the OP DD's problems.

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Ok so part of the reason that this is so hard is that ds cannot learn by doing. He is ASD amidst a slew of other labels. We homeschool because he couldn't learn in a classroom. She was a straight A student in ps. True, her teachers sometimes took away her chair because she couldn't remain sitting. How is it that a classroom worked, but my homeschool classroom doesn't? How do I Physically involve her in learning all the time without stopping all learning for ds?

 

I think dd could be labeled ADHD, but most professionals wouldn't. It would be very mild. She is attentive in any classroom or group. I had an ECSE teacher (she was a reverse mainstream) put in writing that she is "perfect". I think part of the issue is her highly social nature. She actually does better with lots of distracting people around. The rest of the family are introverts.

 

Regentrude, I love the idea of walking and working on memorization. She likes to jog on the treadmill. We could do that.

 

Elizabeth, if you are dumping the textbook, how do you know what to cover and how much? This is a child interested in a science field. I don't want to blow that for her.

 

Elizabeth, It was late when I read your post last night and I didn't follow the link. I've actually already read that book. The thing is, all my reading of material like that was based around ds. Now I have to rethink it for dd who always seemed to fit the "girl who does well in school" model, but is now struggling.

 

I should also add, laziness is a definite part of the issue. She doesn't want to work at school. If I could find a way to better motivate her...

 

I will take a look at the GEMS and TOPS guides and see if I can integrate some of the project stuff. I'm not a project person and this is such a huge stretch for me.

 

I looked at GEMS a couple years ago for my dd, but they were too young for her. I have a number of TOPs books, and while *I* like them a lot, I can't get her to bite. I suppose if I sat with her and did them, they'd be fine. Just to hand them and use independently the way the structure of the materials seem to imply, nope.

 

Now if I could parse or quibble over something, you said she "does well in school" and I'd like to change that to DID well in school. When was she in school last, 5th grade? An age when they were still doing a lot of interactive and project-driven stuff? Your expectations are changing each year, and the material is becoming more and more abstract, more and more curriculum-driven instead of interest-driven or rabbit-traily. So while she might have been fine in the past in a school setting, that doesn't mean that plopped into a current 8th grade class she'd suddenly be all great and grand.

 

You mentioned you don't think they could diagnose the adhd. You say that because?? Just wondering, because they should be able to. Indeed it presents differently in girls than boys, and there are subtypes (inattentive, etc.). Girl adhd *can* sit in church through multi-hour services and be the perfect student, absolutely. Have you read up on executive function? "Late, Lost, and Unprepared" is a good start on that. It has lists contrasting nt and EF-deficit at various ages. The neuropsych will typically have you do EF questionaires and then do (I forget the name) computerized tests for attention. It's all quantified, compared to norms for gender, so it WILL show up. If that's what's going on, they can catch it.

 

Ok, I just read your comment about the introverts and had a chuckle. Yes, I've got two introverts in my house, and they drive me BATTY. You're probably selecting introvert-friendly learning options for her and don't even REALIZE it. Your curriculum list is by yourself history, textbook french, etc. Whatever, you probably don't think of it that way. And yes, you might need to re-read your books and start thinking in terms of her. You have to break them up in your mind and put them into two different worlds. At least that's what I do with my ds and dd, because they're totally, totally different.

 

Now about the laziness. I guess the question to ponder is whether the issue is laziness or that the materials don't fit her. Also EF problems can make a child seem lazy when it's really a lack of structure. And to top it off, an extrovert who isn't getting her people time will be very demotivated and de-energized. So it becomes this triple whammy.

 

I think Regentrude's point is interesting on why you pulled her out. Not that I'm saying put her back in, but she's clearly very different. I would go ahead and get the evals, because a neuropsych definitely could find something. That's their job. And the neuropsych we used spent time with us answering my questions about how curriculum, etc. It was very validating and gave me confidence to make some changes I wouldn't have felt sure about otherwise.

 

You mentioned you're not a project person. I guess that's your own hurdle to climb. I don't think you have to go so far outside of yourself that you are constantly going out of your gourd. It's more of a balance, blending what you can work with as a framework with the ways they need to take it. For instance, I've got multiple physical science textbooks, including the Hewitt/Suchowski and BJU. So if we spend 3-4 hours a week doing labs and 1 hour going back and reading the book to understand what we saw, that's balance. I got my framework, she got the hands-on. It's 8th grade, so I'm not wigging out. I know where it's going, and I know what I need to see happening. Frankly, to me hands-on is where it's at anyway. The base level high school classes aren't necessary to go into AP, but the hands-on experience is. My plan is to take her into the Illustrated Home Guide books after this and plow right through them. BTW, my comments on AP are based on my own experiences in high school. I went into AP chem and physics with no prior background. Actually, I had totally missed physical science too, because of changing schools. The ONLY thing you needed to go into AP chem or physics successfully was good math and that wealth of real experiences so you could interpret what you were reading about. Reading comprehension is based on prior knowledge, and if you pick up an AP text and have SEEN that stuff happening, it's no biggee. So that's the theory I'm operating on. Doodler's dh, who has a phd in science, agreed with my comments, so I'm owning it. It's the whole concept behind the Conceptual Physics and Conceptual Chem books anyway, that kids don't *understand* enough.

 

Well whatever, I'm on a rabbit trail! I think the key to making the project-driven learning do-able is to make sure it's structured. Labs are inherently structured, and they don't seem to overwhelm you, as you've done them successfully. Just do more, kwim? BJU's lab book is better than CIA's. The Conceptual Physics lab book is freely available online to download. Knock yourself out. There's no need to be holed up in a book. I spent a lot of time correlating them, picking out the supplies, and now we can just go at it. I've got enough to do 3+ a week, which I estimate will take us 3-4 hours, and that's without trying any of the labs from the CP book. Add on a little bit of book reading, and it's just plenty.

 

We're still finishing up the VP 1850 to modern cards, have two to go next week and we're DONE. She's been reading up a storm. After that I think we're starting into the cultures/regions/blending history and geography, ancient to modern, plus lit plus whatever study I created. Not saying you should change, but I wanted to toss out that I'm realizing that my looser approach to projects in the past (hmm, what are we studying this week? what would you like to do?) could probably be stepped up. Our study is going to go in 3 week cycles by region/culture, so I'm probably going to sit down and start researching in the next few days to find some good, significant, STRUCTURED projects for her. If it's too open-ended, it just takes off and becomes a problem. There's good open-ended, and then there's TOO open-ended. On the one hand it's an awkward age, not sure what I'll find, as indeed people are doing less hands-on projects of significance. On the other hand, they're so incredibly capable.

 

Just as a totally off the wall idea, have you read Soma Mukhopadhyay's book "Understanding Autism through Rapid Prompting Method"? I've been fascinated by it for a couple years, and someone finally, just yesterday, loaned me the book. Although it sounds like it doesn't apply, what she does particularly well is helping you identify the open channels your dc has to learning. In a given moment or stage of development or day you have their visual, auditory, kinesthetic, etc. etc. to get to them through. So it fascinates me to have someone make it explicit how to see that and how to change our methods to connect with them better. You have content that is engaging (due to the way they think: narrative vs. ...) and then you have the channels of learning you're engaging. Whatever, just something I'm reading finally. It's written specifically about autism and connecting with non-verbal kids, but of course some of those same brain differences in how they learn, to a lesser degree, I think are apparent in adhd. I don't think it's MERELY that the dc is in motion and that we have to entertain them. I think it's that they actually make connections better certain ways, that some channels are making more connections than others.

 

Well whatever. Off to a thrilling day of cleaning. I'm the extrovert who gets left alone a lot because my introvert familings are oblivious. And what's pathetic is I clean so much BETTER with company. :D

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I admit i couldnt get through all of OhElizabeth's post . . but my first thought - someone mentioned something like this . . . you said she's a natural writer, right? I remember noticing that i learned more when I had to research something and write about it. Could you incorporate more of that for her? Give her topics related to where you are in history (a war, a president, a social change, whatever) and have her research and write a paper, or even write her own historical fiction. You have to find a way to get her to engage with the material. have you tried having her take notes while she is reading or listening? this also might help - i found i had to take notes and read my notes to really take in what was happening in a class, and i had to highlight books and review the highlights.

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Can I first just say Wow Elizabeth! Thanks for taking the time to think through all of that. Now I'm going to go a point at a time :).

 

I looked at GEMS a couple years ago for my dd, but they were too young for her. I have a number of TOPs books, and while *I* like them a lot, I can't get her to bite.

 

I looked at both of these and can't imagine her liking the tops too childish. There was only one GEMs guide that looked good and I think I already have enough labs on the topic to not need it.

 

Now if I could parse or quibble over something, you said she "does well in school" and I'd like to change that to DID well in school. When was she in school last, 5th grade?

 

Point taken. She actually was last in ps in 4th grade. However, she does band (private school), Sunday school, bible studies and other classroom type environments and thrives in all of them.

 

You mentioned you don't think they could diagnose the adhd.

Too few symptoms, too mild symptoms.

 

Have you read up on executive function? "Late, Lost, and Unprepared" is a good start on that.

Yes, I have read that. I don't see her in it at all. She is organized and an organizer. She can follow an extensive list of verbal directions, all the things I think of as symptoms of EF issues, she is good on.

 

Ok, I just read your comment about the introverts and had a chuckle. Yes, I've got two introverts in my house, and they drive me BATTY.

Yes, the poor child. I've felt bad about this her whole life. I can't imagine how hard it is to be the only extrovert in the house.

 

You're probably selecting introvert-friendly learning options for her and don't even REALIZE it. Your curriculum list is by yourself history, textbook french, etc. Whatever, you probably don't think of it that way.

I actually realized this last year. This year she is doing almost everything WITH me. It has really helped. She loves her schedule right now. We do French together and it is interactive and fun - not at all textbooky :).

 

Also EF problems can make a child seem lazy when it's really a lack of structure. And to top it off, an extrovert who isn't getting her people time will be very demotivated and de-energized.

I dont' think the EF problems are it. We are pretty highly structured in our home and school because ds has always needed HIGH structure. However, you are so right about her needing her "people time" She is at the gym 16-20 hours/week over 4-5 days. She has youth group Sunday morning, worship band practice Sunday night and regular band practice 2 days/week. She gets more "People time" than the rest of the family put together, but I don't know if it is enough.

 

So if we spend 3-4 hours a week doing labs and 1 hour going back and reading the book to understand what we saw, that's balance. My plan is to take her into the Illustrated Home Guide books after this and plow right through them.

We spend 2 hours/week as a minimum doing labs. Then she is watching DIVE lessons with the Physical Science and likes them. We also do some other demos and quick lab sort of things. I'm not using the CIA labs. For Chem we are combining with ds using the Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Labs and doing a few DIVE labs without him.

 

Reading comprehension is based on prior knowledge, and if you pick up an AP text and have SEEN that stuff happening, it's no biggee.

That would so NOT work for me. I didn't take enough high school science and started with intro classes in college and had a hard time. I made it through and have my science degree, but I don't want her to have my experience.

 

Just as a totally off the wall idea, have you read Soma Mukhopadhyay's book "Understanding Autism through Rapid Prompting Method"? Although it sounds like it doesn't apply, what she does particularly well is helping you identify the open channels your dc has to learning. In a given moment or stage of development or day you have their visual, auditory, kinesthetic, etc. etc. to get to them through. So it fascinates me to have someone make it explicit

I haven't read that one. Figuring out what her "open channels" are is certainly my challenge!

 

 

Thanks again for all the thought!

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I remember noticing that i learned more when I had to research something and write about it. Could you incorporate more of that for her? Give her topics related to where you are in history (a war, a president, a social change, whatever) and have her research and write a paper, or even write her own historical fiction. You have to find a way to get her to engage with the material. have you tried having her take notes while she is reading or listening? this also might help - i found i had to take notes and read my notes to really take in what was happening in a class, and i had to highlight books and review the highlights.

 

We have tried taking notes and it does help, but doesn't solve the problem. The writing would probably work, but she hates being assigned "projects". I do it anyway, but it meets with lots of resistance. I'm afraid adding more would make us all miserable. :glare:

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Maybe being able to stand up, talk it out, and write on a board would be helpful. She could pace around. It would be more active than just sitting and reading a book.

 

 

Wendy,

My white board is behind my couch. We can reach it and write while sitting. Maybe I need to move my couch! This is a really practical thought for me. Thanks!

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Have you tried "mapping" the information in some way. You can do everything from the completely informal web on a piece of paper to sophisticated software. I am very visual, so I usually use one piece of paper for a topic, put everything I need to know on there, and then try to re-draw the information on another paper. It is actually the act of trying to remember something again that cements it in your memory, so just reading something or staring at it without interaction doesn't work for many people.

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Have you tried "mapping" the information in some way.

 

I have never even heard of this before, but when I asked dh he had used one of the software programs. Ds and I have nearly photographic memories for what we read. I am just out of touch with what everyone else requires to remember information.

 

Off to look into this more :auto:

 

Thanks for the idea!

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What about using lectures/DVDs/Videos/Documentaries? Does she remember things from them? Maybe she needs to watch documentaries on the subject first, to get her interested and get those pegs in place, then read the written material, once she has a feel for what she is learning.

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We love our iPad. I'll look at that.

 

I think these small practical things are going to be my stepping stones into reaching a learning style that is so different from my own.

 

It really is trial and error. As much as is said about learning styles, it still comes down to what works for each individual, so no one can give a recipe for any other kid. I have one dd just like me. Then I had two that aren't (and aren't even like each other. :glare:)

 

What I have found is helpful is to put out a "buffet" of techniques and let each one choose which they keep. Even my similar dd has some things she likes more or less than I do. It takes research to find many different study skills, memory techniques, etc., but it is worth it. I figure I am saving them a lot of pain in college or the workplace by helping them know themselves now.

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Yup. I think I've talked with you about how we're doing physical science this year, doing only the labs from BJU and CIA and tossing the book. Sounds horrible, but makes sense when you consider my dd can tell you about every lab we did back when she was 6. Seriously. I'm done beatin' her over the head with books.

 

A nifty little read for you "Why Don't Students Like School?" http://www.amazon.com/Why-Dont-Students-Like-School/dp/047059196X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1345860403&sr=8-1&keywords=why+don%27t+kids+like+school Your library might have it. Anyway, it has a chart showing that comprehension has nothing to do with reading level and is driven instead by prior knowledge. In other words, if she reads it after she has DONE it, she might engage and get those channels going across her brain and make the connections. But just to read a bunch of words, nope, not enough. I guess that's not perfect logic, but there you go.

 

And yes, history with my dd has always been immersive: cook it, wear it, live it, feel it. But we were talking science, right?

 

Sorry, I'm just very tired. You do know there are *names* for "my bright kid is wiggly and uber-creative and seems to need hands-on and retains nothing when they slog through a textbook they're not interested in" right? When you're to the point where it's frustrating, sometimes it means it's time to take the plunge and get the evals.

 

Funny that I see this only now, after the interventions thread. Dh had to attend a presentation about this book at the school where he teaches. All the teachers were supposed to read it and write a response, I think. :tongue_smilie:

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