What is it about TOG that makes it "reformed"?....

[Rhondabee]

I'm not really asking what "reformed" theology is (I know that I'm not reformed ~ tho', I'd have a hard time labeling what exactly I am!). I'm more asking how does TOG weave that worldview into the curriculum.

 

I'm just still uncertain how being "reformed" affects how literature and history are studied, if that makes sense. Where does it come out? Is it easily skipped, or is it pervasive?

 

I figure this would probably be more of an issue in the rhetoric levels - since that is where it delves into philosophy. Is that a correct assumption?

 

Any hints on what to expect - or what kind of disagreements you had with that POV and how you dealt with them - would be greatly appreciated!

 

Thanks,

Rhonda

[Bula Mama]

I'll take a stab at this since no one else has yet for you! I've never used TOG so I can't answer those questions specifically but what it probably means is a heavily Calvinistic perspective. Just like other theological perspectives there can be a bit of flux from person to person but 'reformed' generally means a strong emphasis on predestination (as opposed to God giving us a choice in free-will and grace and the belief that you can't be SURE that you're chosen by God until Heaven), studying the Catacism (spelling????), and they believe in infant baptism to name a few things.

 

I'm not reformed but I do appreciate how some of the theology balances out some possible weaknesses in my own. For example, I think it's good to remember thet God is Soverign and that we need to serve Him in reverance and holy fear (a focus of a reformed church) alongside of accepting His grace. I wouldn't have a problem using TOG materials but I would have to be prepared to discuss any differences in beliefs that my family may have.

[Staci in MO]

But yes, the reformed perspective is going to take the viewpoint that God is sovereign in all things.

 

I think this is going to come up more in the church history in the upper levels. I was looking through the logic church history book yesterday, and in the explanations of Calvinism vs. Arminianism, it is more favorable to Calvinism.

 

The idea that you can't know until you die whether you get to heaven was common among the Puritans, I'm not aware of any who still hold this idea today (but I could be wrong about this). Infant baptism is not universal among reformed Christians, nor is it restricted to reformed churches. Methodists, who are definitely not reformed, baptize infants as well. Some of the more well-known reformed authors (John Piper, John MacArthur) today do not practice infant baptism.

 

Okay, I've taken a simple question and started splitting hairs. :blush: Sorry.

 

Anyway, in the church history and philosophy, it's going to emphasize predestination and God's sovereignty.

[Shelbelle7]

If you follow this link: http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/faq/ and click on "How is Christianity presented in Tapestry of Grace", that might give you a better idea as to where the material is coming from. hth

[coopers5]

First, please I must respond, if only a little, to the first reply - just to clarify.

Those of us who hold to reformed tradition and faith do NOT in any way shape or form believe that we cannot know we are God's until heaven.:001_huh:

That is simply not part of reformed theology or belief. Rather, it is by his grace alone, and nothing of our own doing, that we are adopted into his family, and are assured that he holds us in his hands forever. No offense taken, and none intended here, either. But I just needed to clarify.:001_smile:

 

I think the best way to "sum up" how reformed tradition pervades the materials, is also a good way to sum up a big imperative about it in general - Scripture alone is the authority for all of faith and practice. Not traditions of man or any surmised authority of any church. Also, along with this, TOG seeks to present history in a way that glorifies God (and his sovereignty over all creation and events) rather than man. This is also a "trademark" of reformed faith - God-centeredness (it's about Him), rather than man-centeredness (it's NOT, none of it, about us).

 

Where you will probably most obviously see reformed underpinnings is in the church history sections of study. However, the publishers are very, very careful to give you the facts.

I would encourage you to go to the FAQ page on the Lampstand Press/Tapestry website:

http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/faq/

The last three questions/answers should help you learn more. Additionally, feel free to contact the folks there on the website - they are more than happy to answer all of your questions. They are indeed very sharp and thoughtful.

 

I do love the TOG materials and I think that I can fairly say that it is because they are so well-done and easy to use. I feel they are thorough and - wow! my daughter grew and was so challenged this year learning especially about analyzing literature. She's a bright girl, loves to read everything, and I needed more challenge for her, something to take her deeper. This really did so. (she's rhetoric level - my last child left at home)

 

At any rate, I wish I'd known about TOG a long time ago, I would have used it with all of my children together.

 

HTH!

Jo

[Rhondabee]

Thanks for replying! I'm trying to figure out maybe a better way to ask....

 

I guess what I'm wondering is...do they "teach" or "prove" their theological beliefs while explaining history or literature? Is that the whole basis, or is it only a small part?

 

For example, would they try to "prove" predestination in their lit analysis notes - or, would there maybe a question (which I could ignore or change at will) stating, "In light of what the Bible teaches about Predestination, write an essay explaining...."

 

In the first example, which frankly I have a hard time envisioning, I would feel overwhelmed - like, can't we just stick to examining how the author presents his viewpoint. But, if it's just a question to answer about whether or not I agree with the viewpoint, and the reasons why, then I can see modifying that question.

 

It's not that I'm unwilling to listen to someone else's pov. I just don't want to be forced to discuss our differences every day, or even every week. (There's just so much that is good and true and shared by all Christians, and I'd rather focus my attention on those.)

 

Thanks!

Rhonda

[Rhondabee]

Sorry, it took me too long to post my other reply, so I missed yours! Would you mind reading that, and telling me what you think about the reformed pov influencing the lit analysis/history analysis?

 

thanks!

rhonda

[coopers5]

Well, as far as their "trying to prove" any positions - no, I think I can very confidently say there's none of that. Parents are provided with literally, seriously, in the teacher notes, word for word excerpts from the World Book encyc., to prepare for the weeks. Then, in questions, and discussion material, you are given exactly what to ask and bring up in discussion times. There are also plenty of Scripture references in margins for you to use. And, as the website FAQ tells you, these are straight from the Word, and you are free to use them how you wish.

 

From time to time, there has to be "talk" of God, you know? I mean, because admittedly, as I stated above, He is woven all through the history study (which is the backbone of all the other elements - lit., ch. hist., philos., etc.)

Leaving him out of the discussion would be like leaving the author out of the discussion of a work of literature.

So, students are questioned, I believe, in ways that only make them take a look at the events and the Bible, plain and simple. I think that's what I want from a curriculum with worldview study.

 

I truly don't think there is any overriding feeling of being "forced" to view a particular aspect of theology any certain way, save what I have mentioned before, about God being sovereign and using all kinds of people and events to bring about his purposes. Salvation is not spelled out in such a way as to make a person who is not reformed, per se, feel uncomfortable.

 

Again, though, I'd encourage you to go to the website and, seriously, take a look at the actual samples of weeks they have. (study, especially, the teacher notes pages and the student activity pages in whatever agegroup you're interested in) These are invaluable and would give you a better peek into this. I totally understand your wanting to be sure about it. I would not want to have to spend a bunch of time trying to side-step things as I work through a curriculum; and I truly don't think you'd have that problem here.

 

Let me know if there's anything else I can help with.

:001_smile:

[M&M]

I'm not really asking what "reformed" theology is (I know that I'm not reformed ~ tho', I'd have a hard time labeling what exactly I am!). I'm more asking how does TOG weave that worldview into the curriculum.

 

I'm just still uncertain how being "reformed" affects how literature and history are studied, if that makes sense. Where does it come out? Is it easily skipped, or is it pervasive?

 

I figure this would probably be more of an issue in the rhetoric levels - since that is where it delves into philosophy. Is that a correct assumption?

 

Any hints on what to expect - or what kind of disagreements you had with that POV and how you dealt with them - would be greatly appreciated!

 

Thanks,

Rhonda

 

I could be wrong, but my understanding of Tapestry is that they tried very hard not to focus on theological differences between denominations, there is a great emphasis on the Parent, led by the Holy Spirit disciples R level (and younger) students. I just don't think that you will find such questions in a lit discussion...you might find something like, What does the Bible say about xyz? How does that relate to the decision abc character made in the book you read this week? The teacher's notes would have verses relating to whatever the topic was with some guidance for discussion.

 

We are not Reformed either, and I have had no problems with Tapestry, we have not used the R level yet, but what I have seen of the Pagent of Philosophy there is not a problem there for me either.

 

I joined the Tapestry Catholic Yahoo group (I have Catholic hsing friends) and I was surprised at how little they have had to change it only seems that the Reformation/Counter Reformation periods needed the most tweeking.

 

To me that says that TOG works for all Christians, because it is designed as a tool to aid your teaching, not something that controls you.

 

I hope you get more help from others who have taught R level. Maybe you could ask on the TOG forum as well.

 

I hope that this helps you some.

[Rhondabee]

Thanks! My other reply got deleted by my 13yo. =)

 

I had noticed on the website that the FAQ seemed to indicate that the "commentary" is (usually) just scripture. (Rather than, a "commentary" on scripture.) Thank you for confirming that.

 

We *do* already talk about God throughout our day, and even how what people believe about God influences their actions, and how "a man may plan his way, but the Lord directs his steps." So, I'm guessing that may be a similar thought, rather than an opposing one. I'll definitely re-check the samples online.

 

Thanks for all your help!

Rhonda

[Rhondabee]

That is very encouraging. Thanks!

 

Rhonda

[Bula Mama]

First, please I must respond, if only a little, to the first reply - just to clarify.

Those of us who hold to reformed tradition and faith do NOT in any way shape or form believe that we cannot know we are God's until heaven.:001_huh:

That is simply not part of reformed theology or belief. Rather, it is by his grace alone, and nothing of our own doing, that we are adopted into his family, and are assured that he holds us in his hands forever.

 

Sorry if I spoke out of turn here. My brother is reformed and I've had a very specific conversation with him and his wife where I found that they don't believe that they can know for SURE that they are chosen until Heaven. They THINK that they are but they don't express assurance of salvation like other denominations do. I guess this is not universal among reformed churches then.

 

I don't think I stressed works as the doorway. Of course, it's by grace but the stress for them is more on His Divine choosing rather than by free-will choice as a more Arminian theology would stress.

 

Like I said, it's not my particular theological bent but I do have great respect for those who are reformed that I know and think that different perspectives in the Church have a lot that can be learned from each other.

[Rhondabee]

Ok - this so illustrates the problem I would have with using *any* "Christian" curriculum that attempts to explain its theology using what I would call "the semantics of man" versus quoting scripture, and allowing each person to be guided by the Holy Spirit as to its interpretation/application in their everyday life.

 

(I am not saying that it is mere semantics that is separating reformed & arminian & whatever else there may be. Merely that I trust what God says for Himself. But whenever man starts paraphrasing it, something is lost - or added.)

 

According to the FAQ (and I haven't yet gotten a chance to look at the samples to confirm this), TOG is simply listing scripture references, and allowing the user to interact directly with the Bible. *That* I can meditate on, study, and benefit from.

 

Thanks, guys!

Rhonda

[8filltheheart]

Hi Rhonda,

 

I looked at TOG and decided against it. I am also on the Catholic-TOG yahoo group. I have been on that loop for over a yr and from the posts, my assumption is that only a few are well versed in history. Yr 2 is definitely Protestant in POV. (not that you would necessarily have a problem with that)

 

I decided against TOG b/c I really try to teach history in a balanced perspective. I have yet to find a pre-fab program that is. It is easier for me to just start from scratch than to keep modifying.

 

HTH,

Karen

[Denise in PA]

Tapestry of Grace has been my life-line teaching my older students. I have now taught from TOG (years 2, 3, 4) and have never felt or noticed Marcia Somerfeld, author of TOG, to prostelytize her faith. In fact, she is very careful not to create a theological rift. TOG year 2 historically brings to light the Reformation Movement and then later the Great Awakening. Marcia deftly describes the Protestant theology - but not derisive view points. I am very comfortable with TOG. THe primary focus is to teach students to think, analyze, and then synthesize.

[Rhondabee]

Sent you an email.

Rhonda

[Holly IN]

I am not reformed. I am actually in the Restoration church (Christian Church/Church of Christ). I am very comfortable with TOG and agree with most of what they say. I do not feel that they bring their ideas about their faith into TOG. It is basically history only, nothing else. Religion is up to the parents as all have different religions. That is why there is no Bible portion in TOG, only Church History.

 

Holly

[Rhondabee]

I am not reformed. I am actually in the Restoration church (Christian Church/Church of Christ). I am very comfortable with TOG and agree with most of what they say. I do not feel that they bring their ideas about their faith into TOG. It is basically history only, nothing else. Religion is up to the parents as all have different religions. That is why there is no Bible portion in TOG, only Church History.

 

Holly

 

And, after several other churches, we are back in a Christian Church now. So, your words hold alot of weight. Thanks for chiming in!

 

:001_smile:

Rhonda