lulubelle Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 My ds 9 can get so frustrated with some basic concepts that he freaks out. He yells, swears, pleads, and cries. He is starting to threaten lately. Just words. No physical abuse. If it is not his usual way of doing things or it is too challenging for him, yet age appropriate. Do we just stop it altogether? It really sucks. It usually happens maybe once a day or at least a few times a week. I've been thinking of medication. Nothing seems to help. He is below the line Adhd and below the line Asperger's. He was tested. If it is not his outbursts, then it is constant annoying behavior, such as, bothering his siblings, spacing out, not listening, easy distracted, and he normally takes all day to complete a reasonable day of school work. I don't want to live with him emotionally controlling our whole family any longer! I have recently considered school outside the home as well. Thanks for any advice or shared experience! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MommyK Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 My ds 9 can get so frustrated with some basic concepts that he freaks out. He yells, swears, pleads, and cries. He is starting to threaten lately. Just words. No physical abuse. If it is not his usual way of doing things or it is too challenging for him, yet age appropriate. Do we just stop it altogether? It really sucks. It usually happens maybe once a day or at least a few times a week. I've been thinking of medication. Nothing seems to help. He is below the line Adhd and below the line Asperger's. He was tested. If it is not his outbursts, then it is constant annoying behavior, such as, bothering his siblings, spacing out, not listening, easy distracted, and he normally takes all day to complete a reasonable day of school work. I don't want to live with him emotionally controlling our whole family any longer! I have recently considered school outside the home as well. Thanks for any advice or shared experience! Do you feel it's truly a frustration with struggles? Or is he acting out to be a stinker? I guess what I'm asking is, is this a discipline issue, or a genuine cry for help.. because there's a big difference, and it could very much be one or the other. If he's truly overwhelmed, maybe you could cut back on what you are requiring of him for awhile, and then start slowly and slyly adding more back in as you get a handle on the outbursts. We ran into that with piano and my 10 yo dd. She just would get so carried away with her frustration, and I let it really get to me. Crying. Pounding the keys, an overall nasty attitude. So we stopped altogether, but I kept working with her siblings. She would always come around, for the attention if not anything else. I realize that's not schoolwork, but I'm just trying to offer a little support. Hopefully someone will chime in with some great ideas.:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottakee Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Has he been tested for other learning delays/learning disabilities? I think the key would be finding out what is behind his frustration---is it ADHD, or more ADD, is the work too hard for him to honestly understand, is there a vision or other processing issue, etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 (edited) As I understand it, a child with a weak working memory are only good about focusing intently on difficult information for 8-10 minutes max. The mental drifting, the blank stares, disruptive behaviors, and the explosive outbursts are protective in nature because the brain can't process or comprehend new info anymore. My own child blanks and turns inward. I use a timer when we are doing something difficult and give him short breaks. He asks for hugs when he gets upset and I use that as a cue to give him a short break, using the timer to keep us on track. He simply requires a distraction. Something novel to refocus, like checking the mail or rotating laundry. Not all kids refocus well. As the teacher, try to be mindful of time. Be calm and don't over react to your son. Speak to your son about more appropriate ways to respond to stressers. Take a look at the materials where he struggles most and consider whether the material you are using is appropriate. Look at curricula that is both multisensory and explicit. Understanding his learning style will help you both become more efficient. Play to his strengths. DS has dysgraphia, so I taught him to type. You may need to take a more non-traditional approach to composing by making posters or allowing him to use power point slides or drawing cartoons. Consider reducing the overall written output. Reduce or take away screen time. Ensure he is well fed and had plenty of sleep. Consider videos and audio books. Consider looking at omega 3 and 6 supplements for focus. Consider speaking with his ped and ask about a referral to an OT for evaluation. DS is presently exercising daily and using the interactive metronome with positive results. You love this child. Tell him and let him know that you homeschool because you believe in him and will happily walk beside him as he struggles. ETA: I absolutely agree that your child should be tested for LDs and getting the vision checked. Edited July 6, 2012 by Heathermomster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lulubelle Posted July 6, 2012 Author Share Posted July 6, 2012 Thank you so much for your input. Just recently, I cut out some of his writing, because it was just to much and too frustrating for him. He is a child who loves to be inside his box! He does not want to be stretched in any way. He does not like to be told what to do. I keep saying to my husband, but why, oh why, didn't the neuropsych give him a diagnosis of ADHD or Asperger's. He has many of the signs of both, just not enough. He said he was quirky and bright, but not enough. The only thing outstanding was his higher i.q. and his average processing speed. He was evaluated by an OT and found to have a coordination disorder. He did OT for a short time, but insurance did not pay and we have him doing some other great physical activities, such as, karate, swimming, gymnastics, and an adventure class. But, he has been difficult since he was 2! If it isn't math today, it's something totally unrelated and uncontrollable tomorrow. It certainly doesn't help that his Dad is the same way! And, he did math with him today! They are like fire and gasoline at times and neither will give in. But, as my husband can stay calm, my son begins to rage! One reason it takes my ds all day is because I realize he needs breaks. And, that is sort of okay. But, the anger and verbal abuse has got to go. Thanks again for suggestions, they are very helpful and insightful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 A few things... Your son sounds a bit like my older son. His diagnosis is gifted with dyslexia and ADHD (and there was an Asperger's diagnosis in there too, but it was incorrect). Since I refused to have school take all day, I orchestrated things so that "breaks" were less demanding forms of schoolwork and not just free time. So we would do something brain intensive (maybe math) and then do something easy (maybe a read aloud), alternating until we were finished. Also, outbursts resulted in major penalties--no screens, in room for a long time, that sort of thing. I had a zero tolerance policy. Lastly, and maybe most important, I tried to analyze where and when the outbursts occurred. Sometimes it was with a particular resource and sometimes it would be with a particular type of output requirement. Sometimes it was my attitude (honestly, my son was *much* more difficult when I had PMS). Try to really think about what the triggers are to see if there is something you can change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairProspects Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 This may sound dumb, but have you tried letting him chew gum during some of his more difficult tasks? Chewing can be organizing to the brain, and for some reason ds tolerates dictation (his trigger) much, much better when he is chewing gum. It is a simple fix that might work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lulubelle Posted July 7, 2012 Author Share Posted July 7, 2012 Having more "trouble" with him during my pms was definitely the case. But, it seems lately, the trouble with him is all the time. He refers to it as blowing a gasket. He seems to have a certain level of anxiety about school work that ebbs and flows. He can feel incredible pressure to finish and when something doesn't go smoothly and easily it can either take him FOREVER to complete or he throws a fit. If he didn't have to actually work at anything he would do much better. I have also found over the years, with this kid, that consequences make everything worse! It adds more anxiety and more anger. Though, stairs or jumping jacks have worked pretty well. I've read many, many, many books about behavior issues. We even tried to do Marcia Garcia's Super Flex curriculum to get him to be more flexible and it only showed how inflexible he is and how unwilling he is to change! I've tried the Explosive Child and even went to an all day seminar and implemented their approach, but he is just too darn inflexible. In some ways he has improved over the years. Maybe that is just from getting older. It seems to be one step forward and two steps back! His ability to be so inflexible and annoying makes me explode! It's as though we have created this bottle neck environment for him at home that just cycles. He also seems to feed off of all of us for attention and he wants it all. All the attention, whether good or bad. I have always felt he needed to be an only child because he is incapable of sharing anything! I have been trying to ignore his annoying behaviors unless he is hurting or bothering someone, and trying not to explode back at his explosions. Also, trying to help his younger brother ignore his frustrating behavior towards him. It is just all so exhausting! Constantly exhausting to deal with. I just always wonder if medication would take the edge off of him. The neuropsych said that if he was in school he would probably push it to give him an ADHD label. I think he was being too conservative because we homeschool. He also said that if we felt we wanted to try medication that we could go that route. If med's could curb his constant annoying behavior and help with his inflexibility than that is what I want. But, my husband is scared that if he starts he may always have to take drugs. We have tried the gum thing and I have noticed no difference, except it is another annoying thing he is distracted by! Sorry so long! Thank you for taking the time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) There are good/helpful drugs and there are bad drugs. The best way to counter your DH's concerns is to address the ADHD/ADD medication options. Not all ADHD drugs are the same, and as the parent, you ultimately control whether your child takes them or not. You can explore these avenues, try them, and stop if you like. Do what works best for your family.:grouphug: Edited July 7, 2012 by Heathermomster I wasn't homeschooled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 He also said that if we felt we wanted to try medication that we could go that route. If med's could curb his constant annoying behavior and help with his inflexibility than that is what I want. My son took Celexa for anxiety back when he was 10yo. That *really* helped with the outbursts. We took him off it after 6 months, and he was still quite a bit better (though while he was coming off it he was terrible). When he was 12yo, we started with stimulant medication for ADHD. That made a *huge* difference in his ability to learn. But it also caused him to be anxious. Now, at 16yo (and in school), he only takes the ADHD meds when he feels he needs to focus well, like for an exam. It isn't ideal because he really needs them all the time, but at his age, I figure it is important for him to have the choice. I honestly think that if he were to take both the Celexa and the ADHD meds, it would help immensely, but I don't want him to be using so much medication. Possibly a different ADHD med would be less anxiety producing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiramisu Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Thank you so much for your input. Just recently, I cut out some of his writing, because it was just to much and too frustrating for him. He is a child who loves to be inside his box! He does not want to be stretched in any way. He does not like to be told what to do. I keep saying to my husband, but why, oh why, didn't the neuropsych give him a diagnosis of ADHD or Asperger's. He has many of the signs of both, just not enough. He said he was quirky and bright, but not enough. The only thing outstanding was his higher i.q. and his average processing speed. He was evaluated by an OT and found to have a coordination disorder. He did OT for a short time, but insurance did not pay and we have him doing some other great physical activities, such as, karate, swimming, gymnastics, and an adventure class. But, he has been difficult since he was 2! If it isn't math today, it's something totally unrelated and uncontrollable tomorrow. It certainly doesn't help that his Dad is the same way! And, he did math with him today! They are like fire and gasoline at times and neither will give in. But, as my husband can stay calm, my son begins to rage! One reason it takes my ds all day is because I realize he needs breaks. And, that is sort of okay. But, the anger and verbal abuse has got to go. Thanks again for suggestions, they are very helpful and insightful! I don't know how long ago the evaluation was, but you obviously have remaining questions. I wonder if...1. You could repeat an evaluation if the testing was done more than two years ago, or 2. You could take the results/report to someone else and get their feedback. What is so hard about the rages is that they can be out of the dc's control and they feel so awful afterwards about their behavior. Others also get resentful and the dc picks up on it, and it becomes a vicious cycle. I think need to follow your instinct and try to get more answers. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Don't know if this will help any but I have been working on directly teaching the response I want in certain circumstances. Such as to say, "Mom, I cannot figure out how to do this, can you help?" or even, "Can I take a break and go play outside?" I also am using an organic gum that I now found, since mine is reactive to all sorts of ingredients in most gums, and that does seem to help also. Also, gum is only for certain subjects (ones that involve writing, which tends to be a problem), so I get to hear "Can I have some gum and do my ____- now?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heart'sjoy Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 More sleep: by covering windows with blankets. This sounds crazy, but dc was losing sleep from long daylight. Solving nightime wetness with a Malem alarm over 6 weeks. Quiet relaxing eveining at supper and quiet activities at home. No evening activities on a regular basis. Collaborative Problem Solving: http://www.directionservice.org/cadre/section5.cfm We painfully and slowly switched to this method of solving discipline issues. It was harder for me to retrain myself and be willing to invest an hour on something I wanted done in 5 minutes. 2 years later most problems are solved in 5-10 minutes. I don't mean my child has the new habit that takes 3 months or more. But 99% of problems are addressed with a plan that's agreeable to both without either of us losing it. The bottom line. My child is not in high anxiety mode when there is a discipline issue and actually believes I will support him in the process. Another option that we were using was RDI therapy at home. This greatly changed the inflexibility. RDI can be used without a diagnosis if you use private pay. It allows you to work on the inflexibility deficits directly regardless of the diagnosis. Two of the parent tools that paid the biggest dividends were: 1. Dyanmic or declarative communication vs. static/ or imperative communication http://www.pathwaystreatmentcenter.org/papers/staticVsDynamic.html http://www.pathwaystreatmentcenter.org/papers/declarative.html 2. pausing or counting to 20 before I expected a response. To summarize: We altered our entire lifestyle: activites, pace and speed, communication, and problem solving, beside some therapy with RDI. The payoff: 95% of this happened within the four walls of our own house and with minimal hoop jumping. The child is functioning; the family as a whole is functioning. :grouphug:Feel free to PM me. I'm spent some days weeping in the bathroom too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lulubelle Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 Heart's Joy, thank you for the RDI info. I have requested the book from the library and found a place about a half hour away that uses it for family therapy. I think my ds inflexibility needs work before the Collaborative approach can work - which we have tried in the past. I really appreciate everyone's experience and opinions. Thank you all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flutterby Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I am not certain of the "official" label, but there is something that refers to when a child is overly stimulated by just about anything. Sensory or sensitivity issues? Some of the issues you describe I could have just as easily thought you were talking about my ds who is 10. We went through a period of VIOLENT outbursts and just not knowing what to do... and that is with dh as a therapist. And "dropping it" to avoid an outburst isnt always possible. So you do what you do. You learn and you move on. We have worked sooooo hard on behavior mod, positive incentive, ignoring, you name it we have probably tried it. And if I am honest NONE of it seemed to be working at the time. But apparently our efforts have paid off. Are things perfect now? No... but better by a million miles. Thankfully I cant remember when he had his last physical outburst. Verbally he still kicks off occasionally, but he doesnt black out anymore and that to me is a miracle. He remains conscious of what he is doing and regrets it later. What came to mind when I read your original message was something that happened just the other night. I just recently discovered WTM and decided to switch our curriculum and follow this new path. Previously it had been a bit... completely... eclectic. Not unschooling, but just whatever I could find that I thought would be appropriate... it worked well enough until now. But he HAS to have structure. He knows every single morning exactly what is going to happen, how it will happen and when. For someone that was spontaneous like myself having a child who went berserk without structure, this took a lot of getting used to. So imagine the scene a few nights ago when I sat down after dinner and started to explain my new notebook system I had spent a week assembling... his eyes glazed over and I could feel his frustration building. "Mom, I hear the words but they are not going in. You might as well be speaking Greek." I started getting frustrated until I realized it was pointless. It would only end with the both of us in tears. So he asked if he could look it all over in his free time and then ask me about each section when he was in the space to hear it and understand it. Bravo to him for self-awareness. That is a HUGE step for us. It has been a few days and I am having to hold my temper in check as I am the type of person where everything seems obvious (except the UK testing system) and should not need explanation. He is the type where it may need to be explained in several different ways. Sometimes he needs to type out his stuff and others tell me verbally... though he is extremely articulate in his writing. I think you have gotten great advice from other moms here and I just wanted to through my hat in the ring as support. I know that for my ds it is critical that he be given the space, time and situations that HE feels support his understanding. That means that he doesnt do a lot of work at a table, but if he needs to he does. It also means that he cant do it if I am in the same room teaching his sister something. Or if he is asking a question he cant filter out other noises so I have to sometimes repeat myself. Or go to another room. I also have to get REALLY creative in my explanations, or when I just cant do it anymore... send him to dh. Who like your situation... they are both very similar... so that sometimes backfires into huge fireworks of neither one hearing the other. Yet other times because they ARE so much alike it clicks! I know it sounds rather simplistic and I am sure you have done this, but have you asked your ds what would work for him. If he knows that not doing it (unless there is a VALID reason for not doing it... and I do concede occasionally with a valid well thought out and articulated discussion) is not an option... what does he think he needs in order to be successful? What time of day is it easier for him to do it, where, how, with whom, for how long a time period? Does he recognize when he is losing it? Does he recognize what triggers his outbursts? Maybe asking him to keep a diary of what was happening just before the out burst and what other choices he could have made if he knew they are available to him. Sometimes I think our kids dont know they have other options available to them, or that what they are feeling and how they are reacting are not generally associated with "normal" behavior. Though on the flipside they can tend to carry a lot of shame and guilt about it as well. When my ds realized that we were on his side trying to teach him how to manage himself, things started to change, but I also think there was a certain degree of maturity with that. He is by no means perfect. Tonight he got mouthy, but quickly recognized he was exhausted not having slept well with the thunderstorms so thought he should go to bed... but then was still mouthing off on his way, trying to defend his decision... which no one was disagreeing with... oh well... baby steps. I apologize for the length... I could still share stories about dd and her stuff too... but that is enough for now... best wishes to you and always remember what works for one child may not work for another, and you know your precious angel best. I totally know that feeling of just wanting peace at any cost even if it means sending one to ps... but he sees the torture he would be in there and begs us not to give up on him. How can you argue with that? :grouphug: ~Jenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parkah6 Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 You have all offered so much good advice, and many ideas about behavior, discipline, habits, as to the cause. I thank you all, esp. Lauren, for sharing. These posts help me greatly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delirium Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 No advice just comfort. I can't imagine how frustrating that is with all the things you've tried. I was lucky enough to have the explosive child tactics work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlemamaof7 Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Have you ever looked into Bi-Polar disorder. Sometimes it can cause the explosive behavior. My friend had a boy who had it and he would beat up his younger siblings and say terrible things to them as well. He slammed the door on me one time as we were going out of church and I had a baby in my arms and my younger daughter (age 7) was in front of me and the door almost hit her head. I kept wondering why does he act like that he's home schooled!? Well I guess now I know that doesn't matter. My sister has Bi Polar and she was always mean to me and when we were teens she would beat me up on a regular basis. For little or no reason but I fought back and didn't put up with it but she always won out because she was bigger than me. It was a horrible way to live! I would consider sending him to school for a year so you can school your other children without disruption. Sometimes they just do better in school. My friend's boy thrived in school as he loved the competition. Like I said some kids just do better in school. My oldest did better in school as she struggled and was so stubborn about doing Math with both my husband and I so we sent her to school. She's back home now for HS but she wanted to come back and I'm not teaching her Math! I made that perfectly clear to her. We are going to use a virtual school and that way I'm not responsible for keeping up with everything for High School. :) Look into Bipolar disorder it can sometimes go with both of these other things or it can be that and you think it's the other. God Bless you! Kelly:auto: Having more "trouble" with him during my pms was definitely the case. But, it seems lately, the trouble with him is all the time. He refers to it as blowing a gasket. He seems to have a certain level of anxiety about school work that ebbs and flows. He can feel incredible pressure to finish and when something doesn't go smoothly and easily it can either take him FOREVER to complete or he throws a fit. If he didn't have to actually work at anything he would do much better. I have also found over the years, with this kid, that consequences make everything worse! It adds more anxiety and more anger. Though, stairs or jumping jacks have worked pretty well. I've read many, many, many books about behavior issues. We even tried to do Marcia Garcia's Super Flex curriculum to get him to be more flexible and it only showed how inflexible he is and how unwilling he is to change! I've tried the Explosive Child and even went to an all day seminar and implemented their approach, but he is just too darn inflexible. In some ways he has improved over the years. Maybe that is just from getting older. It seems to be one step forward and two steps back! His ability to be so inflexible and annoying makes me explode! It's as though we have created this bottle neck environment for him at home that just cycles. He also seems to feed off of all of us for attention and he wants it all. All the attention, whether good or bad. I have always felt he needed to be an only child because he is incapable of sharing anything! I have been trying to ignore his annoying behaviors unless he is hurting or bothering someone, and trying not to explode back at his explosions. Also, trying to help his younger brother ignore his frustrating behavior towards him. It is just all so exhausting! Constantly exhausting to deal with. I just always wonder if medication would take the edge off of him. The neuropsych said that if he was in school he would probably push it to give him an ADHD label. I think he was being too conservative because we homeschool. He also said that if we felt we wanted to try medication that we could go that route. If med's could curb his constant annoying behavior and help with his inflexibility than that is what I want. But, my husband is scared that if he starts he may always have to take drugs. We have tried the gum thing and I have noticed no difference, except it is another annoying thing he is distracted by! Sorry so long! Thank you for taking the time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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