Is grammar necessary?

[jpklehm]

With the exception of 3rd grade, my ds, 14, has been doing grammar every year. My dh doesn't think it's necessary to continue doing grammar in the fall, 9th grade.

 

My son did FLL in grades 1 and 2, and from grades 4-8 he's been doing Growing With Grammar. He's done well.

 

So, do I continue with GWG or move to Analytical Grammar for 9th grade then end it, or discontinue it all together at this point?

 

What do you all do with grammar?

 

Thank you.

[jpklehm]

Any thoughts on this, please?

 

Thank you!

[regentrude]

I may be the heretic on a classical board, but I do not consider formal grammar instruction in the native language essential.

 

Since your kid had grammar, I see no reason why you should go over it again in high school.

I assume you will do a foreign language in high school? Any student of a foreign language will have grammar instruction in the foreign language, and that is very useful in understanding the structure of one's native language as well.

[luvnlattes]

I'll reply even though I'm no expert. My oldest starts 9th grade next year. He will have grammar as part of his English credit but that is because he will be finishing Analytical Grammar. If we had completed AG in 8th grade, I would not have given grammar for 9th.

 

The author of AG believes that once the student completes the AG text, there is no need for any additional grammar instruction. She does offer High School Reinforcement books. The student complete one worksheet every two weeks to reinforce the concepts. The TM states that she developed these after repeated customer requests so it sounds like initially she thought the program was enough.

 

Since your son has had so much grammar you may not need to continue. Have you looked at AG's Table of Contents to see if there are topics covered that your son hasn't seen? If there are no new topics, you could have him do periodic reviews of his prior curriculum.

[Julie in MN]

I may be the heretic on a classical board, but I do not consider formal grammar instruction in the native language essential.

 

Since your kid had grammar, I see no reason why you should go over it again in high school.

I assume you will do a foreign language in high school? Any student of a foreign language will have grammar instruction in the foreign language, and that is very useful in understanding the structure of one's native language as well.

 

I'll join Regentrude.

 

You may not need grammar. You will likely get grammar in foreign language, especially in year 2.

 

I'll add that you can do it on an as-needed basis. High school writing assignments will give you a good window into your child's grasp of grammar. Discussions about any errors in his writing assignments will show you whether he has the "grammar vocabulary" to understand what you're saying about passive voice, mixed tenses, subject-verb agreement, etc. In other words, the "purpose" of all that grammar study was to now bear fruit in high school writing. (Unless you are using grammar for another purpose, such as logic or attentiveness.)

 

As-needed at our house means each kid is different. My older dd needed zero grammar in high school, having mastered it in her elementary years in public school. My oldest son was public schooled K-12 and he wished he'd had a bit more - didn't have quite the same teachers as his sister. And lastly, my homeschooled youngest son needs a refresher now and again, but overall a fairly minimal amount in high school, having grasped most of what he needed in our 7-8th grade studies.

 

Julie

[jpklehm]

Since your kid had grammar, I see no reason why you should go over it again in high school.

I assume you will do a foreign language in high school? Any student of a foreign language will have grammar instruction in the foreign language, and that is very useful in understanding the structure of one's native language as well.

 

He will have Spanish, yes.

 

Since your son has had so much grammar you may not need to continue. Have you looked at AG's Table of Contents to see if there are topics covered that your son hasn't seen? If there are no new topics, you could have him do periodic reviews of his prior curriculum.

 

I will look at the AG's Table of Contents and perhaps check out the Reinforcement books, as well. I'll see if either of these materials is what is needed.

 

I'll add that you can do it on an as-needed basis. High school writing assignments will give you a good window into your child's grasp of grammar. Discussions about any errors in his writing assignments will show you whether he has the "grammar vocabulary" to understand what you're saying about passive voice, mixed tenses, subject-verb agreement, etc.

Julie

 

Good point, I agree. His writing assignments will let me know how he's applying all the grammar he's learned, and if it's necessary, I can give him as-needed reviews.

 

Thanks!

[amtmcm]

DD 15 used solid grammar curriculum through 7th grade with a little review in 8th grade. In 9th grade she used "Editor in Chief" once a week. The material is similar to the Writing portion of the SAT. An unexpected benefit of using EIC is that now she says she enjoys editing her own writing.

[Ellie]

I may be the heretic on a classical board, but I do not consider formal grammar instruction in the native language essential.

:iagree:

 

I'll join you in that heresy. :D

 

 

[Melissa B]

We are not doing any grammar studies in high school. Our emphasis is on literature and composition.

[SkateLeft]

Count me in with those who don't do grammar in high school. I don't think it's necessary.

[elegantlion]

I hadn't planned on grammar in high school, but ds has some serious deficits, so we will do 9th grade at least.

 

What I've found, from my own little research pool of one, is that two years of a foreign language study is good for the basics of grammar. However, we didn't get into the harder concepts of grammar such as the harder concepts of phrases and clauses and comma usage.

 

I'm hoping we can address many of those more difficult concept in context of his writing, not using a curriculum at all. My challenge is going through my own study of deeper grammar, so I know what *I'm* doing.

[Second Time Around]

I'll probably let DS read through the Elements of Style throughout the year and perhaps add in Chortling Bard, if it works well (he will be doing lots of Shakespeare next year, so hopefully this will be a good fit). He moaned about doing Jensens this year (10th) as a refresher after years of Rod & Staff, but I think he needs to get grammar to a point of automaticity. I did find that his writing improved quite a bit from doing the Oxford Guide to writing. I know that this is classified in TWTM as rhetoric, but it has been the only thing where I've seen him focus so minutely on the mechanics of writing. His content needs work, but the Oxford Guide seemed to gather the strings of the grammar lessons together and allow him to execute them in a conscious manner. DS has had very severe dyslexia and only started to read kids books when he was around 6th grade.

 

Also I was educated in the UK at a time when no one took grammar lessons past age 14. Sometimes I think this is reflected in my own writing, though, and even that of my fellow college grad. friends. Stylistically, American writing seems to have been much more streamlined (perhaps through books such as Elements of STyle?) than the typical British writing. As a student, I always preferred to get my hands on a nice American literary critic, who would write so directly, than his/her more convoluted British peer!

[garddwr]

I may be the heretic on a classical board, but I do not consider formal grammar instruction in the native language essential.

 

Since your kid had grammar, I see no reason why you should go over it again in high school.

I assume you will do a foreign language in high school? Any student of a foreign language will have grammar instruction in the foreign language, and that is very useful in understanding the structure of one's native language as well.

 

 

 

 

I agree with Regentrude. I went through school with almost no formal English grammar, and it never hurt me. I did get lots of grammar practice with foreign languages! The usual argument for multiple years of intensive grammar is that it improves writing, but unless you are seeing real grammar problems I would focus more on high quality reading and a good writing program to improve writing skills.

[tex-mex]

Count me in with those who don't do grammar in high school. I don't think it's necessary.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

I would think writing, essays, reports and critical analysis exercises are more important than grammar, IMO. Preparing them for what a college class requires them in assignments and trying to get them independent with due dates with their final draft. I have sent my son's papers to other parents to be graded and this has forced him to really work hard as they can be tough graders. LOL :D

[jpklehm]

DD 15 used solid grammar curriculum through 7th grade with a little review in 8th grade. In 9th grade she used "Editor in Chief" once a week. The material is similar to the Writing portion of the SAT. An unexpected benefit of using EIC is that now she says she enjoys editing her own writing.

 

I'll look into this. This may be a better alternative than another year of structured grammar.

 

The usual argument for multiple years of intensive grammar is that it improves writing, but unless you are seeing real grammar problems I would focus more on high quality reading and a good writing program to improve writing skills.

 

The English course I'm developing for my ds is all about literature and composition. His writing issues aren't really about his grammar usage but more about content, so that's where we need to put our emphasis. Great point!

 

I would think writing, essays, reports and critical analysis exercises are more important than grammar, IMO. Preparing them for what a college class requires them in assignments and trying to get them independent with due dates with their final draft. I have sent my son's papers to other parents to be graded and this has forced him to really work hard as they can be tough graders. LOL :D

 

I agree. I am planning on sending his longer papers (1 per semester, 4 total for the year) to an outside/online "grader" that SWB recommends. Due dates and content development are what we'll focus on this year, in terms of his writing, and when/if grammar issues come up, we'll tackle them one at a time.

 

Thanks for the suggestions!

[5knights3maidens]

So, Ds (going into 9th) has never really had grammar. He has used many vocabulary books and Editor in Chief (continuing E in C in 9th) and has done extremely well. I was going to have him do the 6th grade KISS. Should I not do this?

He does need to write more. Also, he will do the First Form Latin workbook this year. (he watched the dvd's this past year)

[jpklehm]

So, Ds (going into 9th) has never really had grammar. He has used many vocabulary books and Editor in Chief (continuing E in C in 9th) and has done extremely well. I was going to have him do the 6th grade KISS. Should I not do this?

He does need to write more. Also, he will do the First Form Latin workbook this year. (he watched the dvd's this past year)

 

What is the KISS?

[Mom22ns]

I think grammar study should be finished before kids start high school. High school should be about literature and writing.

[5knights3maidens]

What is the KISS?

 

http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/PBooks/index.htm#L1_Instructional

[jpklehm]

Is the KISS an instructional program then a final test, making sure the student has "grade-level" skills in grammar?

 

I'm trying to understand this. It's the first time I've heard of it. Anyone else every hear of KISS? Used it?

 

Thank you!