Question about stubborn Independence

[Citrusheights5]

iPad is not letting correct my mistakes so please forgive me

 

I saw the thread on "gifted ness" and it prompted me to seriously think about my son who is 6. He is currently in first grade in PS after being HS for kinder. While I have no clue where he is on the spectrum of high achiver or gifted I know he is not at pace with the classroom. I have another son who just turned 8 who also attends first grade at the same school this year, and it seamed perfectly paced for him and the rest of the first graders. It is a very good school and I really loved their philosophy.

 

After looking around the boards I realized that this may be the best place to ask my questions about my boy, even if he's not gifted,but just bright. DS6, has always just been different- quirky, guy. He picked up reading,math, everything on his own. To the point where you almost can't teach him. It's infuriating. His strength appears to be memory?? As in playing stack the states, he plays for a week, masters the game, and has nearcomplete retention, of location capitals,etc even months later- but since he will not accept help -Nevada is pronounced -Nev-E-da... Until I hear him and correct him. But if you were to ask him does he know his states- if at that moment he can only recall 48, he will say no.. His perfectionist tendencies hold him back so much.

 

I've had him. Iq tested this year hoping to get him into a special program next year more at his pace,His iq came back as 100. Once a problem was the least bit challenging he just said -no lets go to the next one. So next year I will end up with both of them at home since DS8,need remediation.. And DS6 needs more than the school can provide. I know how to remediate but I have no clue how to teach DS6.

 

How do you teach someone who refuses to be taught? Lay out material and wait for him to come to me? I'm not sure he would if he needed help, although, I am fortunate that if I did say do this he would do the work, I just have no clue what I would get back most days. I have no clue what his strengths are because everything just sticks, but he has no interests independently until he does..ok that makes no sence. An example would be, He want to learn multiplying and dividing so he says. He wants to understand why, but won't listen to an explanation from anyone, long enough to get it. Yet, he walked by his brother doing his algebra homework and asked what the square root sign meant and DS13 said "a number times it's self". Off runs ds6 with a crayon and a paper and comes back with a list of 1+1, 2+2,etc, I put the answers down and he was smiles until Brother said- that is adding not multiplying multiplying is with an x sign. Paper goes in the trash, he's done.. But he still knows the answers to date... How do you teach a child like this?? I'm have no clue as far as curriculum goes, since I'm not sure if I should let him be Independent or push for more one on one. Ideas? Anything..

[blondeviolin]

Well, for math I would probably pick up something like Math Mammoth that is written to the student, even at the earliest levels.

 

For reading, could you have him read to you and correct any mistakes he does have?

 

I do have a child who is very stubborn like this and sometimes it is better to fight the battle to teach him the littlest thing so eventually I can teach him bigger things. He still jumps in halfway through saying, "I know! I know!" and tries to complete, but a lot of teaching him ANYTHING (not just schoolwork) is perseverance, picking my battles, allowing for some self-teaching, and knowing when to let him fail.

 

BUT, my kids are still really young. I am :bigear:, though, because this sounds a lot like my four-year-old...minus that it doesn't completely stick and/or he's not necessarily as interested in academic things.

[shann]

Before worrying about particular curriculum, I would honestly search long and hard for ways to help his perfectionism. I would guess he has a very high IQ and his perfectionism prevented the test from being remotely accurate.

 

I do not know if my Dd is gifted (her test results are not back yet) but she is very similar in attitude to your ds. Expects to be perfect at everything the first time because in the past learning has been so easy. When she is confronted with work that confuses her, it is an absolute meltdown. When she is not satisfied with her results, when they don't meet the ideal in her head, again melt down, crumpled up the paper thrown in the trash, stompy feet, tears, etc. She also hates being helped. She always wants to "do it herself" and when you try to correct her she gets a major attitude.

 

Lol I've not been too kind to her here, she is otherwise a wonderful kid and so much fun, but just wanted to share that this type of behavior is what I find time and time again as "gifted perfectionism". If you search here on the board and google you'll find lots of info.

 

What I've been trying to do is to slowly get her used to challenging work. We talk again and again about how it's not learning unless it's hard and unless she really has to work at it.

My favorite curriculums for gifted perfectionist challenge are Beast Academy for math enrichment and Michael Clay Thompson for Language arts because both engage higher order thinking. If he is a fast learner (which it sounds like he is) I would avoid anything with too much repetition or be willing to let him skip ahead when he shows mastery. Do not buy anything too far in advance or you may find he's already past the material before you've used it lol.

 

It sounds like you'll want to run your ds through many level assessments to find work that will actually be challenging for him. You might want to search around on the board for achievement test recs

[Citrusheights5]

Going to look in to the math and La suggestions. Thanks. I'm glad to know I'm not alone!

 

Sometimes I wish he would have a melt down tantrum whatever. I can deal with that. I can be just as pigheaded and determined. But he's learned this awesome skill at school, called tuning out and disapearing in his own head. Ugh. The whole shutting down thing is tiesome.

 

If nothing else I am pleased to know I am not the only one with an uber independent learner...

[LillyMama]

Before worrying about particular curriculum, I would honestly search long and hard for ways to help his perfectionism. I would guess he has a very high IQ and his perfectionism prevented the test from being remotely accurate.

 

What I've been trying to do is to slowly get her used to challenging work. We talk again and again about how it's not learning unless it's hard and unless she really has to work at it.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

If you have time for this kind of reading, pick up Nurture Shock. It's a book written by child psychologists that I've found super helpful for my over-achieving, perfectionist little daughter. (And like you, I have another child who is a little behind, one a bit ahead, and it is exhausting.)

 

Basically, the core of what I've gotten so far (I'm still working my way through the book) is that we need to be sure to create an environment praising hard work and not achievements or natural born skills. In other words, we compliment the child who works hard and say, "thanks for challenging yourself, I'm so proud you work so hard." and not say, "wow, you're so smart!" If a kids whole self-identity and worth are tied up in things they cannot change (like how smart they are) then they don't value perseverance and struggles.

 

I think getting him away from the PS may help him, as so many things are competition based, or at least susceptible to it. A child who can already do things better than his peers expects to always be better. Then when something challenging comes up, he doesn't know how to try and then thinks "I may not be as smart as I thought." I was that kid myself, so a lot of what I've read in Nurture Shock has hit very close to home.

 

As for the perfectionism thing- one thing I've learned is to not criticize perfectionism. It's a losing battle. A child hears, "Don't be so hard on yourself, 47 out of 50 states is good enough!" as "See, you don't even know how to feel right!" which just sends perfectionists back into trying to be perfect. Does that make sense? Instead, when my perfectionists (daughter and husband) get like that, I just start talking about all the things they do well. I NEVER compare them, never talk about how "most kids their age cannot do even that" or "so-and-so cannot even read and he's older than you!" because that just fosters the competitiveness that is so extreme. Even if they competitiveness is with themselves, it can be infectious. So I just say, "Wow, I think 47 states is pretty impressive, I like that you worked so hard to learn them. If you want to know all 50, maybe you can work more? Either way, good work!"

 

Anywhoodle, good luck! It's funny how having "advanced" kids can be just as worrisome as "regular" kids. Guess we all have things we're working on!

[MomatHWTK]

My DS likes to watch computer-based tutorials.

[lewelma]

I finally quit buying the textbook for singapore math because my older son would not let me teach him. He told me that if I taught him or if he looked at the textbook that would be "cheating." I finally just gave him the intensive practice books and left him alone to work through it at his pace. This same child found the AoPS intro algebra book on his 9th birthday and taught himself. However, he is more than happy for me to teach him explicitly how to write!

 

As for perfectionism, I found that it started to wane by about age 9.

 

I think these are pretty standard gifted traits.

 

Ruth in NZ

Edited May 16, 2012 by lewelma

[Iucounu]

If you have time for this kind of reading, pick up Nurture Shock. It's a book written by child psychologists that I've found super helpful for my over-achieving, perfectionist little daughter.

"Nurture Shock" is written by journalists, not child psychologists, but it summarizes some psychological research. OP, you might want to go straight to some material by research psychologist Carol Dweck herself ("Mindset: The New Psychology of Success") to get her ideas straight from the horse's mouth.

 

I made a page here some time ago, with links to resources, summarizing what some gifted experts have recommended as measures to counteract perfectionism:

 

 

• Give permission to make mistakes. (McIntyre, 1989)

• Use ungraded assignments calling for creative, individual work rather than right/wrong answers. (McIntyre, 1989)

• Limit time that can be spent on an assignment, or number of corrections allowed. (McIntyre, 1989)

• Explain that schools are places to learn, not just demonstrate achievement. (Brophy)

• Explain that errors are normal, expected, and necessary aspects of learning (Brophy)

• Explain that everyone makes mistakes, including teachers and parents. (Brophy)

• Teach a child to measure achievement by progress over the past, rather than comparisons with peers or ideals of perfection. (Brophy)

• Create an environment of acceptance. (Greenspon) Talk about your expectations as a parent, and that you love your child for who she is, not because she meets expectations.

• Avoid putting pressure on a child to be perfect, including with oral tone and body language. (Hately)

• Don't add to the pressure with extra work or scheduling constraints. (Roedell) For example, don't overschedule a child with lessons and activities, leaving no time for free play. Don't pile on extra academic work to help a child reach her potential.

• Do not lower (realistic, achievable) standards of performance. (Hately)

• Make a child aware of mistakes a parent has made. (Hately, Rimm) Model lessons learned, and try to laugh at one's own mistakes. (Rimm)

• Help children understand that they can be satisfied when they've done their best. (Rimm)

• Use praise which is enthusiastic but moderate, thus conveying values that children can achieve. (Rimm) Use "excellent" rather than "perfect", "You're a good thinker" or "You do very well when you try" instead of "You're brilliant", etc.

• Explain that a child may not be learning if all of her work is perfect, and that making mistakes is an important aspect of challenge. (Rimm)

• Teach appropriate, constructive criticism skills, for a child to use with herself and others. (Rimm) Help a child learn to take constructive criticism.

• Read biographies of successful people who surmounted failures. (Rimm)

• Teach a child that routines and habits should not be so rigid as to be immutable. Model flexibility by purposefully breaking routines every so often. (Rimm)

• Explain that there is very often more than one way to succeed. (Rimm)

• Divide projects into beginning, intermediate and final draft stages, with perfection promoted only for the final draft. (McIntyre, 1989) For example, designing a product prototype will entail multiple stages of mockups, etc. that are not expected to be perfect, while still tending towards improvement of the final product (a.k.a. good perfectionism).

• Avoid modeling perfectionistic tendencies for a child. (Rimm) Avoid being self-critical. Make attempts to fail in minor ways in front of a child, and act like it is no cause for alarm but rather to try harder or fail constructively. Take open pride in the quality of your work, and the fact that you've done your best.

• Encourage a child to take risks, and find activities with safe opportunities for minor failure. (Hately) Find activities, such as sports, that a child is not inherently good at and has to work to master.

• Help a child set realistic goals. (Pyryt)

• Help a child to concentrate on those tasks that require extra effort and/or are high value. (Pyryt) This might include teaching a child that 80% of a reward often comes from 20% of the total effort.

• Help a child develop a capacity for constructive failure. (Pyryt) Any present imperfection should be seen as allowing for future improvement.

• Teach a child to know when to quit. (Pyryt) This is especially important with increasing amounts of information available for research online.

• Encourage a child to separate their own self-worth from their work. (Pyryt)

• Help a child realize that the commitment to excellence is a lifelong struggle, and the present circumstances are a step towards the future. (Pyryt)

• Remind a child that a grade only indicates the perceived value of an assignment from one teacher's perspective, matched against a particular rubric. (Pyryt)

• Discuss observations of a child's perfectionistic tendencies with educators and other care-givers. (Pyryt)

• Get professional help from a counselor or psychologist, if perfectionism is leading to other problems (OCD, panic attacks, eating disorders, depression, etc.). (Pyryt)

• Find a child activities that bring joy, independent of any success / failure metrics. (Pyryt)

 

[nellecv]

Thanks Iucounu, that was incredibly helpful!

[Beth in SW WA]

My DS likes to watch computer-based tutorials.

 

My perfectionist (stubborn) dd9 does well with this format also. She also thrives with one-on-one tutoring via the internet with a passionate, enthusiastic math professional doing really creative, challenging problems. I watch and go :confused:. She loves it.

 

Another thing my dd likes is to check her answers after each problem to see how she's doing on daily work. She keeps her MUS Alg 1 answer key handy. It's a control thing. She doesn't want to do a whole page of problems and check it upon completion.

 

Basically, she likes to be in the driver's seat. Whatever works. :)

Edited May 18, 2012 by Beth in SW WA
Typo

[beaners]

"Nurture Shock" is written by journalists, not child psychologists, but it summarizes some psychological research. OP, you might want to go straight to some material by research psychologist Carol Dweck herself ("Mindset: The New Psychology of Success") to get her ideas straight from the horse's mouth.

 

You may want to...or you may not. I read both. In hindsight, I should have skipped Mindset and spent that time on something else. If I was fascinated by the subject and really want to delve deeper into that particular area, Dweck's book expands a bit on the summary in NurtureShock. If I was just interested in understanding what everyone is talking about, I'd call NurtureShock "good enough" ;) and spend my time reading something else.

 

I feel so guilty admitting that I didn't love Mindset, since it's such a huge favorite around here.

[Iucounu]

No need to feel guilty. I wouldn't say I loved "Mindset" either, though I did enjoy it more than "NurtureShock" and also found it far more informative on why I bought "NurtureShock" in the first place.

 

Thanks Iucounu, that was incredibly helpful!

You're welcome!

[Greenmama2]

No need to feel guilty. I wouldn't say I loved "Mindset" either, though I did enjoy it more than "NurtureShock" and also found it far more informative on why I bought "NurtureShock" in the first place.

 

 

You're welcome!

 

Ah, good to know. I found the summary in Nurture Shock interesting but I don't really like rushing out to buy Mindset.