Non-mathy son, Teaching Textbooks versus Lial's math?

[DesertRambler]

To say I have a non-mathy son is probbably understating it a bit. For most of his elementary years, we were stuck on 2nd and 3rd grade math - he was unable to really get past multi-digit subtraction with borrowing. We didn't even START multplication and its concepts until the second half of 5th grade! He has LDs (working memory, sequential memory, and visual memory deficits) that have delayed his learning math, but it seems that the last year to year-and-a-half, things are starting to make sense. He's not fast, by any means, but he is learning much more easily now than ever before.

 

This year, his 8th grade year, he has been working in Teaching Textbooks 6, took some sidetracks to work through some Khan Academy a bit, continued with TT6, then I had him work through one of the Key to Fractions books (adding/subtracting fractions), and is now working back in TT6. He had never done the 4 operations on fractions before this year, so I felt he needed more than TT6 could provide for his first time through. I AM a mathy person (AP Calculus in 12th grade with a score of a 5 - missed 1 problem), and I know that understanding operations on fractions is the single most determining factor for success in higher level math, so I didn't want to skimp on it. I was working full time away from home but have recently switched to working from home and am now able to work through his math lessons with him. He is making even better progress now with his lessons since I have started sitting with him and guiding him through the lessons. Even so, and with working on average 3 days/week this summer, he probably won't finish TT Math 6 until about Christmas time - the middle of his 9th grade year.

 

This son will hopefully go to CC after high school for at least a 2-year degree that will give him some job skills and give him a foundation *in case* he ever decides to go to university. Ideally, I would like him to not have to take remedial math in college - I would like him to be able to place in at least a MATH 100-level class, meaning that he needs Algebra 1 and 2 in high school. If he doesn't pass the placement test for this level, I would rather continue his math education at home until he CAN pass the CC's placement than pay the college for remedial courses.

 

 

OK, enough background and current status. So here are 2 scenarios for his high school math, staying with Teaching Textbooks, the first one is my hope:

 

• 9th grade: finish TT6, take TT placement tests, start TT Pre-Algebra v.2 (already have used with other son)
  
• 10th grade: finish TT Pre-Algebra v.2, begin TT Algebra 1
  
• 11th grade: finish TT Algebra 1, begin TT Algebra 2
  
• 12th grade: finish TT Algebra 2, study and prep for CC placement test
  

2nd scenario is that he doesn't place into TT Pre-Algebra at the end of TT6 and we have to go through TT Math 7 first. Unless we do some compressing of TT7 and TT Pre-Algebra (taking chapter tests at the beginning of each level to skip those chapters that he passes the tests for), he might not have time to finish Algebra 2 by the end of his senior year.

So, I was wondering what the benefits, if any would be to use the Lial books? Also, why are the Lial books so much more preferred than other college developmental math books, like the Martin-Gay books that also get great ratings on Amazon? What are the advantages/disadvantages of TT versus Lial's? Should I just stick with TT and do what we can, or is there an advantage to using Lial?

 

I got Lial's BCM 6th Edition through ILL and Martin-Gay's BCM 4th Edition to compare. They really look almost identical in content and often even in presentation, so I am not sure why so many homeschoolers favor Lial over the others. But I also noticed things when comparing it to TT like 1 lesson in one of the BCM books goes through as much as 4-7 lessons in TT. TT seems to break it down in little tiny pieces, so while I saw right away that the BCM lessons would need to be scheduled over 2 days/lesson on average, I still see TT as breaking it down even more, which might be a good thing for this son. I also know that Lial's would probably require me to teach each lesson where I have a choice with TT to either guide him through the lessons or let him loose at times on his own. In fact, as he gets older going through high school, I know that he will probably rather do more on his own even if now he is benefitting from my instruction/guidance.

 

So should I "stay the course" with Teaching Textbooks, or is there a good reason to move to Lial's books and when? Even if staying with TT, I was seriously considering getting one of these BCM books to have as a "backup" or supplement for more practice problems as needed and/or alternate presentations of concepts/topics. Good idea?

Edited May 13, 2012 by DesertRambler

[Hope in God]

My daughter was quite behind and so this year she did TT6, TT7 and she is now working on TT pre-algebra. This worked out because she was motivated to do it herself (not just me pushing her up the hill from behind). I am glad that I started her on the TT6 and then had her do the TT7 as well (she placed between the 6 and 7 book on the test) because I wanted her to have success and I wanted her to have as much reinforcement as possible. She did find some things challenging at the end of the TT7 book so it is good that she worked through them and I'm sure she will re-visit these concepts in the pre-algebra book.

 

I am not sure about the Lials because we have never used it but I am going to be watching this thread.

 

Great questions!

 

:bigear:

[Lolly]

If he is doing well with TT, stick with it. No need to change something that is working well. Is he doing math year round? If not, you may want to consider it. The only problem I would have with your plan is that it does not include Geometry. If he is going to place, even into College Alg, he will need to have some geometry under his belt. TT geometry is, imho, excellent. You could do it at the same time you are doing Alg. 2. Imo, TT is a better choice than Lial's for someone who needs a lot of constant/consistent review. Lial's only reviews concepts at the end of each chapter. If you are taking extra time getting through lessons, that review will be very far between.

[klmama]

I've used Lial's with non-mathy dc. It's tough. If you feel your ds is working up to his ability and that TT is working, stay the course. Reading over the same sections in Lial's might be helpful to YOU in refreshing your memory of the finer details and how to explain them, though, even with your math background. It's helpful for vocabulary, too. I've spoken to several TT users who found their dc knew math very well, but not the vocabulary, which turned out to be a problem for them when they took placement tests for high school or college - they weren't sure what some of the problems were asking them to do.

[DesertRambler]

My daughter was quite behind and so this year she did TT6, TT7 and she is now working on TT pre-algebra. This worked out because she was motivated to do it herself (not just me pushing her up the hill from behind).

 

So how many lessons/day was she doing in order to get through all of that so quickly? And did she do all of the problems in the exercise set for each lesson, or only a selection of problems?

 

My son, currently, isn't that motivated to do extra math. I have been home with the boys now for about a month to work side-by-side with them and he is doing much better, but I am not sure he is yet motivated to do a consistent 2 lessons/day. I do plan to do that in some of the non-fractions chapters when we get there, but right now he is just getting a handle on the fractions. He will sometimes forget what it means to reduce a fraction, but once he remembers what that means and how to set it up, he can do the work just fine. He is also finally starting to remember how to write remainders as fractions to division problems more consistently and how to convert improper fractions to mixed numbers.

 

Thanks for your feedback!

[DesertRambler]

If he is doing well with TT, stick with it. No need to change something that is working well. Is he doing math year round? If not, you may want to consider it. The only problem I would have with your plan is that it does not include Geometry. If he is going to place, even into College Alg, he will need to have some geometry under his belt. TT geometry is, imho, excellent. You could do it at the same time you are doing Alg. 2. Imo, TT is a better choice than Lial's for someone who needs a lot of constant/consistent review. Lial's only reviews concepts at the end of each chapter. If you are taking extra time getting through lessons, that review will be very far between.

 

He hasn't been doing math year-round, but I told him that this summer, we should do math at least 3 days/week to keep him moving forward.

 

After my Geometry class in high school, I never used those postulates, corallaries, theorems, or any of that other geometry in any of my more advanced math classes through Calculus, so I didn't figure taking a full-year geometry class was that important. TT6, TT7, and TT PA have basic geometry in them so I had figured that would be enough to get him by, but I will keep in mind that taking Geometry along with Algebra 2 (that would be his senior year) is an option. Hopefully, TT Geometry is not the heavily proof-based geometry that I had - maybe it is more practical geometry?

 

Thanks for the feedback on Lial's in regards to the review issue. This son needs a good balance of practice on the current topic so he can feel like he's "getting it", but also needs consistent review on previous topics. Sometimes I don't feel TT gives him enough practice on the current topic, but I do like that it has consistent review. And I am starting to learn that it's the subsequent day's exercise sets where he gets more practice on the new topics, so it appears to be working for him right now. When I was working outside the home and this son started the fractions stuff, I was concerned that it was moving too fast through the concepts (expecting that by Math 6 the student had already been doing fractions operations in previous years) and not giving him enough practice. But now I am seeing that he gets that extra practice by continuing to review those problems in all of the follow-on lessons, which is good for him. It also made me feel better that when we move on to decimals and percents, he will still be reviewing his fractions as well, so there will be less chance of him forgetting it as soon as we move on to other topics. In the past, he would do well with something during that "chapter" in whatever curriculum he was using, but then by the end of the year he would not remember how to do it because he had not reviewed it in several months.

[DesertRambler]

I've used Lial's with non-mathy dc. It's tough. If you feel your ds is working up to his ability and that TT is working, stay the course. Reading over the same sections in Lial's might be helpful to YOU in refreshing your memory of the finer details and how to explain them, though, even with your math background. It's helpful for vocabulary, too. I've spoken to several TT users who found their dc knew math very well, but not the vocabulary, which turned out to be a problem for them when they took placement tests for high school or college - they weren't sure what some of the problems were asking them to do.

 

That's what I was concerned with - that because Lial's covers a lot in each lesson whereas TT breaks it down into smaller chunks, it might be harder for him.

 

Thanks for the heads-up on the potential issue with vocabulary in using TT. Maybe I should get an inexpensive Lial's book to use occasionally for practicing problems from another source that are worded differently.

 

Thank you!

[PeterPan]

We're doing math through the summer here too, 5 days a week, so I would definitely keep plugging on there. Yes, sitting with my dd during the lessons is making a big difference. Bores me out of my skull (I do something on the ipad to keep busy), but it definitely helps keep her focused. Means she doesn't lose so much time if she's stumped but can ask right away.

 

If I could make a suggestion you don't want to hear, I would consider holding him back a year. It wouldn't seem so dire if he had one more year to get through the progression. Is your sig accurate? You have him at 13.5. In our state that would place him as a 7th grader. I understand that's sticky with twins, but I'll throw out the suggestion anyway.

[Lolly]

He hasn't been doing math year-round, but I told him that this summer, we should do math at least 3 days/week to keep him moving forward.

 

After my Geometry class in high school, I never used those postulates, corallaries, theorems, or any of that other geometry in any of my more advanced math classes through Calculus, so I didn't figure taking a full-year geometry class was that important. TT6, TT7, and TT PA have basic geometry in them so I had figured that would be enough to get him by, but I will keep in mind that taking Geometry along with Algebra 2 (that would be his senior year) is an option. Hopefully, TT Geometry is not the heavily proof-based geometry that I had - maybe it is more practical geometry?

 

Thanks for the feedback on Lial's in regards to the review issue. This son needs a good balance of practice on the current topic so he can feel like he's "getting it", but also needs consistent review on previous topics. Sometimes I don't feel TT gives him enough practice on the current topic, but I do like that it has consistent review. And I am starting to learn that it's the subsequent day's exercise sets where he gets more practice on the new topics, so it appears to be working for him right now. When I was working outside the home and this son started the fractions stuff, I was concerned that it was moving too fast through the concepts (expecting that by Math 6 the student had already been doing fractions operations in previous years) and not giving him enough practice. But now I am seeing that he gets that extra practice by continuing to review those problems in all of the follow-on lessons, which is good for him. It also made me feel better that when we move on to decimals and percents, he will still be reviewing his fractions as well, so there will be less chance of him forgetting it as soon as we move on to other topics. In the past, he would do well with something during that "chapter" in whatever curriculum he was using, but then by the end of the year he would not remember how to do it because he had not reviewed it in several months.

 

Geometry: TT does do proofs, but....they CAN be skipped. Easily. Or, you can just talk through them. You may be surprised with his ability to do them. My less mathy kids have done particularly well with proofs. Use the answer key if you need, just seeing how to connect the dots in a proof seems to connect dots in the brain. If he does try the proofs, realize there is more than one way to get to the correct answer. It can make checking them tricky.:D

[Cinder]

I haven't seen BCM but we did try Lial's algebra I book--Introductory Algebra. My math-y son found the format overwhelming even though I broke the lessons down over 2-3 days. We switched to Jacob's and he did better with that.

 

I think if your ds is comfortable with TT you might have more success letting him continue with it.

[Hope in God]

So how many lessons/day was she doing in order to get through all of that so quickly? And did she do all of the problems in the exercise set for each lesson, or only a selection of problems?

 

My son, currently, isn't that motivated to do extra math. I have been home with the boys now for about a month to work side-by-side with them and he is doing much better, but I am not sure he is yet motivated to do a consistent 2 lessons/day. I do plan to do that in some of the non-fractions chapters when we get there, but right now he is just getting a handle on the fractions. He will sometimes forget what it means to reduce a fraction, but once he remembers what that means and how to set it up, he can do the work just fine. He is also finally starting to remember how to write remainders as fractions to division problems more consistently and how to convert improper fractions to mixed numbers.

 

Thanks for your feedback!

 

my daughter realized that she needed to do some catching up in order to be at a certain place by grade 10-11 so she was the one that turned on the afterburners. Some days she does only one lesson or even none on the odd day but then other days she does a lot. I don't ask her every day but I make sure to record what she has done at the end of each week. This way I keep tabs on her without stifling her motivation. I think recording it is a way of acknowledgeing the work that she has put in for that particular week.

[DesertRambler]

If I could make a suggestion you don't want to hear, I would consider holding him back a year. It wouldn't seem so dire if he had one more year to get through the progression. Is your sig accurate? You have him at 13.5. In our state that would place him as a 7th grader. I understand that's sticky with twins, but I'll throw out the suggestion anyway.

 

Well, actually they are turning 14 at the end of June. The other son will be starting PS high school in the fall after homeschooling 3rd through 8th also. Here the cutoff date for starting school is September 30th, and the boys started school in PS for K-2. So 8th grade is their normal progression. They will be 14 before 9th grade starts. And the son going to PS high school is not behind on math (he'll do Algebra 1 in 9th grade) and is actually signed up for Honors English.

 

However, I have no problems delaying this son's math courses in community college for 1-2 semesters if that's what it takes to get through his high school math and pass his placement tests to get into MATH 100+ courses. I would rather him continue with something like TT at home for math than pay the college for him to take remedial math courses (MATH 93, 96, or 97) that aren't even going to count for his Associate! Plus, the CC remedial math courses go much faster - the equivalent of Algebra 1 in 1 semester and Algebra 2 in the next semester, instead of 1 year for each. He could go ahead and start his English classes (provided he's ready for that, too) and his other classes and do math at home until he's actually ready for college level math. I guess that's where I am pretty much set for now.

 

Still not sure how important a full year of Geometry is, but we'll cross that bridge later. I like the idea of him doing Algebra 1 and 2 back-to-back instead of splitting them with Geometry in between - for this son, in particular, he would lose too much algebra knowledge while doing geometry and would have to redo some of it before starting Algebra 2. If he does geometry, I like the idea of doing it alongside Algebra 2. Unless he does it before starting his algebra sequence.

[DesertRambler]

Thank you all for your advice. I will stick with Teaching Textbooks and not worry about using Lial's. I might get a cheap used copy of Lial's BCM to have on hand, but it will just be a backup for extra problems and the like. I will stay focused on Teaching Textbooks for now.

 

Thanks again!

[webbeccjo]

I'd suggest going straight to TT prealgebra for 9th grade and use various other resources to supplement if he struggles. there's SO much review in the TT prealgebra....

then when you move on, the first half of TT alg1 is practically the same as the second half of prealg so theres a lot of review. you could move through that pretty quickly.

that would give you time to cover some geometry too which would really help him on the placement tests at cc

[AngieW in Texas]

TT is working for him, so I would stick with it. The best way to get through more of it in a year is to keep working through the summer. It will help keep him from losing what he's learned without having to double up on lessons.

 

I see that you are planning to possibly do 3 lessons/week during the summer. That's a very good idea.

 

I know that my youngest really can't afford to take off much more than one week from math because she loses too much otherwise. Taking off two weeks at Christmas means that we spend about 2 weeks reviewing before we can really get started back up again where she left off. Just a one week break means 1-3 days of review.

[ereks mom]

I vote for staying with Teaching Textbooks. I know Lial's gets rave reviews here on the boards, but I didn't like it. I found it too "busy" --it's designed for college students, after all (albeit those who need remedial math). It moves much too quickly for the average middle schooler, and especially for a kid with LDs. I bought a copy and sold it, then decided to look at it again and bought another copy, newer edition. I didn't like the newer one any better, so it's just sitting here on my shelf. :glare: (I guess I should list it on the For Sale board so maybe someone could get some use out of it. ;))

 

ETA: I just noticed that this thread is several weeks old, so the OP has probably already made a decision.

Edited June 24, 2012 by ereks mom

[DesertRambler]

TT is working for him, so I would stick with it. The best way to get through more of it in a year is to keep working through the summer. It will help keep him from losing what he's learned without having to double up on lessons.

 

I see that you are planning to possibly do 3 lessons/week during the summer. That's a very good idea.

 

I know that my youngest really can't afford to take off much more than one week from math because she loses too much otherwise. Taking off two weeks at Christmas means that we spend about 2 weeks reviewing before we can really get started back up again where she left off. Just a one week break means 1-3 days of review.

 

Thanks, Angie. He is a lot like this, too. We just returned from a nearly 1-month-long vacation. We will start back up this week, but I am sure I will spend a week or more reviewing just to get him back to where he was when we left. We are still working through TT Math 6. I plan to stick with TT pretty much all the way through, giving placement tests after each level to see if he could more forward more quickly. About the only level I hope to be able to really skip is TT7 and go straight to Pre-Algebra. If he can't pass the placement test for PA, then we will do some review and practice and try again. If that doesn't work, then we will actually do TT7. That way, we may be able to skip TT7 and save some time.

[MathNut]

Hi Cindy,

 

I find it helpful to have a couple of texts on hand to give different explanations when needed (and sometimes more variety in problem sets or content)

 

Lial's is very inexpensive used on Amazon.

 

Also library book sales have texts for a few bucks - nice to have onhand.

 

HTH

[Wytukamomma]

My non-mathy child did well on TT as far as doing the work, but nothing "stuck". He found a way to get through it somehow.

 

So, I have sold off our TT and I am moving to Jones Geniuses. We have to start again on level 5, but in two years they should be through to college level math. I mother of a "non-mathy" kid set me on that path, and I am optimistic that this is *the* answer for us.

 

I hope you find your answer.

[DesertRambler]

I have never heard of Jones Geniuses. I would love for you to report back after a while to tell us if it more successful for your non-mathy child.

 

Also, how did you place your son in level 5? Was there a placement test of some kind?

 

I have decided that our supplement for after finishing TT6 instead of TT7 to prep him for pre-algebra will be JUMP Math at Home 7 workbook. The consultant at Timberdoodle recommended using JUMP 7 and said that it would be a great way to "shore up" his skills and be able to be done more quickly, like even in a summer. Then the pre-algebra placement test and he should be ready.

[Wytukamomma]

I have never heard of Jones Geniuses. I would love for you to report back after a while to tell us if it more successful for your non-mathy child.

 

Also, how did you place your son in level 5? Was there a placement test of some kind?

 

I have decided that our supplement for after finishing TT6 instead of TT7 to prep him for pre-algebra will be JUMP Math at Home 7 workbook. The consultant at Timberdoodle recommended using JUMP 7 and said that it would be a great way to "shore up" his skills and be able to be done more quickly, like even in a summer. Then the pre-algebra placement test and he should be ready.

 

There was a placement test (it is on their site). You administer it to them and then send the scores in and they do a free evaluation with you.

[Guest mom4hand]

Just wondering if anyone had any updates on using the Jone's accelerated math.