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Ipads-scanning in workbooks, etc.


teamturner
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I was reading a recent thread about school uses for the Ipad and saw where some moms are scanning in workbooks to be filled in on the Ipad. I was seriously considering getting my older kids each an Ipad and save tons of money scanning in workbooks. I would only need to buy 1 instead of 3! Then I considered if this violates copyright laws and I think it does.

 

That leaves very little that can legally be used on an Ipad by 3 students unless I actually buy 3 workbooks and just put them on the Ipad for ease of use. So if I don't get the big savings and only have the convenience of the Ipads, I can't really justify the purchase of additional Ipads. We already have one and my boys just completed their Math Mammoth on it today and were thrilled. I could continue to let them share mine if they will only be doing math on it. Next year we're using WWS and I think we can buy one PDF copy and use it will all my kids. Is that correct?

 

What other curriculums can be used legally on the Ipad? If a publisher has a notice about not copying in their cover page, would it be a good idea to contact that publisher and ask if I could buy the rights to make a digital copy and how much that might cost?

 

More publishers might consider making these available at a lower cost if it might increase the use of their materials, right? I noticed that Killgallon has a Kindle version of their Sentence Composing for Elementary for example. I'd planned to use the Middle School sentence composing but it's not available as a Kindle book. I've heard of some private schools putting all their books onto the Ipad so perhaps this is a trend that homeschool publishers might want to look into.

 

Ideas? Thoughts?

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Buy pdfs that are MEANT to be duplicated/printed within a family. That way you can just load them directly.

 

Critical Thinking Company - many of these titles can be photocopied but not all.

Joy of Handwriting - we're doing cursive on the iPad from the PDF

Math Mammoth - get the PDFs.

 

Any PDF is generally meant to be reproduced, some physical workbooks CAN be copied, but check each book individually on the inside of the copyright page. Many workbooks are meant to be consumable - like MUS etc.

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I already have Math Mammoth. My boys are about to finish the highest level of MM. They did their math on the Ipad this morning and loved it. I know if I use KISS Grammar, which I am considering, I can also put it on the Ipad.

 

Unfortunately, the stack of workbooks I have sitting here that I'd like to scan into the Ipad say no copying. Just wondering what the process would be to get permission to copy it or if that is possible.

 

If there's only a handful of PDF variety of curriculums that I use, I don't need to buy my kids their own Ipads. They can just use mine.

 

I was hoping for a homeschool revolution at my house, I guess! :D

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I heard somewhere (maybe on another thread here) that even if the book says "no copying" they can't legally prevent you from copying or scanning as long as you are not selling either the original or the copy or distributing them outside your immediate family. I wonder if this is true.

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A lot of things are now available as ebooks. Have you looked for your materials on currclick? or directly from the publisher?

 

BTW, with the ages of your kids, have you looked at getting Pages or some mindmapping apps? That way they can type their outlines and papers on it.

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A lot of things are now available as ebooks. Have you looked for your materials on currclick? or directly from the publisher?

 

BTW, with the ages of your kids, have you looked at getting Pages or some mindmapping apps? That way they can type their outlines and papers on it.

 

 

Thanks for the suggestions! I will check out that those apps. I did find Figuratively Speaking on Currclick. :D

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For me, it's like copying a CD so you can listen to it on an mp3 player. US copyright law doesn't specifically allow or prohibit that, and unless that changes, I'm going to continue doing it. I don't resell or give away the paper version (or even keep it- I recycle it), nor do I sell or share the digital version.

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Under the letter of the copyright law, you deprive the copyright holder of any financial gain if you copy the materials without permission. Consider this, you copy the workbook for your own use and resell the workbook. You technically, under the plain English read of the law, have violated the copyright.

 

Even if you did not deprive the holder of financial gain, you can often be found to have violated the terms of the copyright. Fair Use is a very thin line. You certianly don't want to be the one that they make an example.

 

By copying the workbook, you did not copy a part of it, but its whole, and even a single page can cause you trouble. You resell the workbook and reduce the profit that can be made by changing the market environment.

 

They go after schools for copying workbooks or chapters of a textbook. Be careful.

 

Anything that will change the financial gain and resulted in duplication of any of the content would be a violation.

 

The only way that you can use a workbook and sell it used is if you do not have the children write in it. They write on paper or type the answers only. I would use extreme caution. The digital age can be one full of useful tools, but don't abuse it. Would you want to teach your children to circumvent your authority?

Edited by ChrissySC
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Just throwing this out there. If you would use a page protector over the workbook page so that you can reuse it for another DC, or have them write on paper instead of in the book, how is that different to scanning? So long as you purchase the original book and don't on sell it.

 

I use a number of curric on the iPad, most i have bought through Currclick, some a vintage texts.

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Just throwing this out there. If you would use a page protector over the workbook page so that you can reuse it for another DC, or have them write on paper instead of in the book, how is that different to scanning? So long as you purchase the original book and don't on sell it.

 

 

See this is what I was thinking. I know families that do this and never considered it an infringement on the copyright.

 

I would not sell the unused workbook though. Could I give it to someone as a gift?

 

On the Amazon site, I clicked on the button that tells the publisher you request they make this book available on Kindle for two of the Killgallon books I want to use next year. Maybe we should all go around and do that for all the books we use that are sold by Amazon. ;)

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Just throwing this out there. If you would use a page protector over the workbook page so that you can reuse it for another DC, or have them write on paper instead of in the book, how is that different to scanning? So long as you purchase the original book and don't on sell it.

 

I use a number of curric on the iPad, most i have bought through Currclick, some a vintage texts.

 

I thought of the page protector thing too because that's what I do. I'm also not sure how it's different than that or doing it orally or writing on another sheet of paper, when you're using it within your own family, not for others or for profit.

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Just throwing this out there. If you would use a page protector over the workbook page so that you can reuse it for another DC, or have them write on paper instead of in the book, how is that different to scanning? So long as you purchase the original book and don't on sell it.

 

There was a lot of discussion of this back years ago in the homeschooling movement. Some people do this prolificly, to the point of bragging about it. (Not quietly doing what they have to do to survive but bragging about it.) And to the extent that you do it with someone's materials you value, you're undercutting their ability to make a fair profit and continue offering their services. I think it's something each person is answering on their own. I don't *encourage* that because I think it's worth paying the workman for his hire. But my budget isn't that tight either.

 

So yes, I think if you scan say a Shurley workbook and write on it digitally rather than buying new copies, that's tacky. Unethical, yeah. I have no clue if that's what you're considering, just picked that because we used it. It's copyrighted material and copyrights extend to digital reproduction. Something like that would be a clear violation of copyright. On the other hand, it's not at all uncommon for authors to give permission if you write them and ask. They may even be considering digital versions. You just never know till you ask.

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So yes, I think if you scan say a Shurley workbook and write on it digitally rather than buying new copies, that's tacky. Unethical, yeah. I have no clue if that's what you're considering, just picked that because we used it. It's copyrighted material and copyrights extend to digital reproduction. Something like that would be a clear violation of copyright. On the other hand, it's not at all uncommon for authors to give permission if you write them and ask. They may even be considering digital versions. You just never know till you ask.

 

After reading through another thread that discussed scanning workbooks, I was all set to start scanning all the workbooks for next year. Then my brain kind of came to screeching halt when I stopped to consider the copyright issues. No, I would not want to break any laws so that is why I posted the question. Just checking to see if I was missing something.

 

I even did a quick search on scanning online and found there are companies that will scan books for you and the market offers really high tech scanners for individuals to have high quality digital copies. The article I read was a little over my head legally speaking and it didn't really answer my question.

 

It seems like all this new technology has the power to really change the education publishing industry. Electronic textbooks could really save school districts money if they ever become available. Updates and revisions could happen much more quickly too.

 

Thanks for all the advice. I'll use pdf formated curriculums on the ipad where we can and traditionally workbook the rest. Thankfully, we can afford multiple workbooks.

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Actually, you can even use the camera built in to the iPad to snap a pic of the page and use it. :D

 

Lots of stuff is just more interesting and convenient to use on an iPad electronically. I scan lessons so I can carry them on my iPad and flip thru them while we cuddle on the couch instead of trying to balance a bulky book on my lap. I don't consider I'm violating any copyright since I paid for the CONTENT not the PAPER. I wouldn't have a problem reselling as long as I don't continue to use (or proliferate) the electronic versions I made "for my personal use".

 

Workbooks can be tricky because they trigger the "consumable" aspect of the fair use principle, but then I don't know if it is any more moral to use a workbook without marking in it (either by using page protectors, writing on a separate paper, or solving orally) and reselling. Actually, if you are scanning for your personal use (to replace the use of the paper version) I don't see how you could be violating fair use of the copyrighted material.

 

For fun (note: this is about distributing, and in the last section the user has a legal copy, so I think the balance would fall towards fair use if you scan a workbook for your own use):

http://teaching.colostate.edu/guides/copyright/ncstatefairuseworksheet.pdf

Edited by ChandlerMom
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For fun (note: this is about distributing, and in the last section the user has a legal copy, so I think the balance would fall towards fair use if you scan a workbook for your own use):

http://teaching.colostate.edu/guides/copyright/ncstatefairuseworksheet.pdf

 

 

This link is great. It provides a fair use analysis used by Colorado State. When I answer these questions, I come up w/unfair use when reproducing the workbooks in question. Here's how I answer each one:

 

1. What is the purpose of the proposed use?

teaching, personal (this answer weighs in favor of fair use)

 

2. What is the nature of the copyright work to be used?

consumable materials/workbooks (this answer weighs against fair use)

 

3. How much of the copyrighted work will be used?

large portion or whole (this answer weighs against fair use)

 

4. What is the effect on the market or potential market for copyrighted work?

replaces sale of copyrighted work (this answer weighs against fair use)

 

So 3 out of my 4 answers weigh against fair use, so I guess I have my answer. Although I can see where there is grey area in some of these answers. I am considering asking for permission from some publishers I'm interested in and see what happens.

 

Here's a more detailed explanation of the 4 factors in determining fair use:

http://teaching.colostate.edu/guides/copyright/exemption_fairuse.cfm

 

Thanks for this information! Wondering how others interpret this as it pertains to using a workbook within a single family.

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This link is great. It provides a fair use analysis used by Colorado State. When I answer these questions, I come up w/unfair use when reproducing the workbooks in question. Here's how I answer each one:

 

1. What is the purpose of the proposed use?

teaching, personal (this answer weighs in favor of fair use)

 

2. What is the nature of the copyright work to be used?

consumable materials/workbooks (this answer weighs against fair use)

 

3. How much of the copyrighted work will be used?

large portion or whole (this answer weighs against fair use)

 

4. What is the effect on the market or potential market for copyrighted work?

replaces sale of copyrighted work (this answer weighs against fair use)

 

So 3 out of my 4 answers weigh against fair use, so I guess I have my answer. Although I can see where there is grey area in some of these answers. I am considering asking for permission from some publishers I'm interested in and see what happens.

 

Here's a more detailed explanation of the 4 factors in determining fair use:

http://teaching.colostate.edu/guides/copyright/exemption_fairuse.cfm

 

Thanks for this information! Wondering how others interpret this as it pertains to using a workbook within a single family.

 

See, I would answer #4 with

"!User Owns Lawfully Acquired Copy"

And

!No Similar Product Marketed By The Copyright Holder"

 

Because, I wouldn't be buying extra anyway. There are very few consumables that I use as consumables. We use a transparency sheet/dry erase, do it orally, or write on our own paper for most. I lawfully acquired it. And, the whole purpose of putting it on an iPad yourself is that there is no similar product offered. Otherwise, I'd just buy a PDF.

 

I can see where perhaps legally, it may not be right, but I don't agree that it's morally wrong for someone who wasn't going to buy more anyway, isn't going to resell the hard copy and continue using the PDF, and wants it in an electronic format when there isn't one available for purchase.

 

Of course, I'm way too lazy to scan hundreds and hundreds of pages, so I'll just hope publishers get on the ball and start offering PDFs more.

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Maybe my situation is unique in that I have 3 students using the same Latin student text, Megawords, Latin copywork, Logic book. The twins are using the same literature study guide and math books also. And next year it may be more workbooks that all three use.

 

I have twin 6th graders and 5th grader that are on the same level on several subjects. So I bought each one of them their own books for all of these subjects. I was wondering how much having all these books on the Ipad would assist us in streamlining our day, making school more portable, etc.

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I don't think copyright laws can be enforced or are expected to apply within a household. For example, I can buy a book, put it on my bookshelf and anyone within the family can pick up that book and read it. I can buy a workbook, each child can pick it up and fill out their answers on a separate piece of paper. I can buy a song on Itunes and download it to each child's device without violating any copyright law.

So in my opinion, you are allowed to share within the household. You cannot make copies and pass them out or sell them outside of your household.

 

Returning to one example, the copyright laws governing itunes books and music and the fact that you CAN download them on all the devices and even different itunes accounts as long as they are within one home is the best correlation I can think of for this Ipad workbook issue.

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Maybe my situation is unique in that I have 3 students using the same Latin student text, Megawords, Latin copywork, Logic book. The twins are using the same literature study guide and math books also. And next year it may be more workbooks that all three use.

 

I have twin 6th graders and 5th grader that are on the same level on several subjects. So I bought each one of them their own books for all of these subjects. I was wondering how much having all these books on the Ipad would assist us in streamlining our day, making school more portable, etc.

 

Michelle, that's some good sleuthing to find that Fair Use questionaire! Looks like it helped you sort that out. Now some of the homeschool-friendly publishers like VP specifically *allow* copying in the front. And any material that allows copying, I would definitely feel free to scan and use as you wish for your students. I don't recall if MP does the same thing. They seem very hip and forward thinking. You might just write them and ask about it. Sometimes they just need someone to suggest it. :)

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I've been following this thread with interest. This same thought came to me as well, after reading another thread about scanning into the iPad.

 

I was all excited about justifying the purchase of an iPad :D and the money I would save by not having to buy more than one workbook.

 

Then I fleshed it out with dh, and like someone else mentioned, the scanning idea came to a screeching halt, when we considered the ethics around this matter.

 

I even tried justifying the idea by comparing it to using sheet protectors. Here's my dh's reasoning on that:

Say you've bought a (consumable) workbook (which states no duplication is allowed).

With the sheet protector method, you are not duplicating the workbook. You still only have the 1 copy of the book.

 

The scanning scenario: You now have 2 copies of the workbook - a physical copy and a digital copy. You've violated the copyright.

 

He's a black and white guy. There's no grey with him. :tongue_smilie:

 

But I bought a refurb iPad anyway. :D I'll let the kids do their Math Mammoth on it. And I'm sure we'll find other educational uses for it. :001_smile:

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Say you've bought a (consumable) workbook (which states no duplication is allowed).

With the sheet protector method, you are not duplicating the workbook. You still only have the 1 copy of the book.

 

The scanning scenario: You now have 2 copies of the workbook - a physical copy and a digital copy. You've violated the copyright.

 

 

So what if you scan it and then destroy the hard copy? Would that make it okay? I'm really trying to figure out a way to make this work and I do just want it for portability, not for reusing it with future students. I'm perfectly happy to toss the workbook after scanning and then delete the digital copy when DD finishes it.

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Michelle, that's some good sleuthing to find that Fair Use questionaire! Looks like it helped you sort that out. Now some of the homeschool-friendly publishers like VP specifically *allow* copying in the front. And any material that allows copying, I would definitely feel free to scan and use as you wish for your students. I don't recall if MP does the same thing. They seem very hip and forward thinking. You might just write them and ask about it. Sometimes they just need someone to suggest it. :)

 

Actually, Chandlermom found the Fair Use questionaire. It was helpful for me to sort it out.

 

See, I didn't know that about VP. One reason I started this thread was so hopefully I could find this kind of information. Knowing which companies/curriculum will allow me to use the Ipad with their materials may help me decide what to use next year.

 

I was going to post a question to Memoria Press on their forum about this and see what they say. I'm leaning toward using their First Form next year with my 3 olders.

 

Now I need to go check out VP and see if they have anything interesting for next year. :D

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So I have a question after reading this thread and I want to make sure I understand something....Say I bought a PDF of a workbook. Am I allowed to use that 1 PDF with multiple students without violating any copyright laws? It would just be scanning a paper copy of the book into a PDF that would be a violation of the copyright correct? I saw another thread that posted about this and it seems like a great idea. It makes sense to me to be able to copy an item that I have purchased for myself but I want to make sure that it's ethical to do. There are some great older books that are no longer published that I would love to scan into my ipad....does a copyright expire?

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Certain educational materials allow for copies to be made. In that case, a digital is not an exception. It would be OK.

 

Let's say I bought R&S Spelling Through Sound and Structure, Book 1. I cannot copy it. I cannot create a digital version either. Why? It is a consumable workbook that is intended to be purchased, written inside, and used for one student. If I create a digital version that I save, allow my child to complete in an app, and resell my book, I have violated copyright. I violated the copyright by reproducing, maintaining the original copy, affecting the financial gain of the publisher who published the book with the intention of it being a consumable workbook.

 

Most books have a copyright for 75 years. Many are on Google Books and Gutenburg. I just printed the Modern Speller. The copyright has expired. It is up for grabs now. As a matter of fact, you could sell the paper or digital version if you so chose too.

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On average a workbook costs 14 dollars. A PDF is usually only a 6-dollar savings, if that.

 

So .... maybe 83 workbooks??????:lol::lol::lol:

 

Last year, I spent close to $165 for our Latin books because I bought 4 sets. If I only buy one set and make digital copies for my other kids, then it reduces what I spend for each subject. And granted I won't recoup the cost in one year, but perhaps I could in several. Plus, we have the ease of portability (we are in the car often) and we're not losing workbooks. They are forever losing their weekly checklists. I could sent a digital copy to their Ipad and they could check it off on it.

 

I need more places for them to type anyways so it's either an Ipad or a laptop. And with Apple's educational pricing on the Ipad, they start at $399. We already have one that was a gift so I might for next year get one additional one and see how it goes. No games or anything but school will be on it, not even educational games. Mostly, I like the idea of them doing math on it and you can't do that with a laptop. Plus, I think they could do their writing on it. One book I planned to use, Figuratively Speaking, is avaiable as a pdf on Currclick.

 

I haven't decided yet.

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So what if you scan it and then destroy the hard copy? Would that make it okay? I'm really trying to figure out a way to make this work and I do just want it for portability, not for reusing it with future students. I'm perfectly happy to toss the workbook after scanning and then delete the digital copy when DD finishes it.

 

 

See to me, this seems fine since you are only putting the orginal book into a format for you to use. Especially if you're not going to do anything with the original.

 

I, on the other hand, want to make 3 digital copies, which does keep the publisher from the sale of 2 additional books.

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Michelle, I'm still getting used to mine, but I would trying writing in a workbook using the ipad you have before you plan on it with more. I've been doing finger, not stylus, writing on pdfs using Notability, and it's kind of primitive. I looked at the more expensive apps and didn't pay for them. I'll probably have to if I get serious about it. Notability works, but the highlighter density isn't right, and you just feel like you're back in first grade. If you use your finger, it doesn't land precisely where you intend. I think Yllek said she has been using iAnnotate and everybody else seems to use pdfeditor. Both are $10. Hopefully they're better. I'm just saying when you want to hand a kid something like LC, where he needs to flip back and forth and see the vocab to do his exercise and make notes on his vocab and grammar, then flip back to the multiple pages of exercises, it might lose the beautiful simplicity of the MP layout. Now on a LARGE screen (kindle reader app on an imac), yes it would pull off really well. You'd use a wacom bamboo tablet and off you'd go.

 

I'm just not impressed with what I'm doing. It works, but I'm not in love yet and fully happy.

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Thanks for that info. I bought a stylus this week from Walmart for $13 and it works really well. We're doing Math Mammoth using PDF-Notes and it is great.

 

I was wondering if something like the Wacom Bamboo tablet existed to be used with a computer. I'll have to show that to my tech advisor when we gets home tonight. ;)

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I didn't know I could just walk into walmart and get one, hehe. I'll go check out pdf-notes. Like I said, I'm not happy with Notability. It's really primitive and not great visually. (and of course visual is the POINT) Ooo, I just went and looked, and it has a free version! I'm definitely trying it to see if it's better.

 

Yup, the bamboo tablets are cool. They come with PSE (photoshop elements), so that's another cool thing for you. That's why I bought it in the first place, because the bamboo tablet was about the same cost as PSE. It may be an old version (mine was PSE8), but it's in there and still does a lot.

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I say that you should buy PDF. Buy workbooks that will allow you to copy.

 

(Note, what are the chances that you will caught? I will not advocate this, but with mulitple children? The cost could be enormous. If you keep the hard copy and don't resell it, I cannot see the harm. I would view this a digital loophole. I don't think that copyright can explicitly address this without someone being brought to trial to set precedent.)

 

Alas, copyright is sorely behind the times too.

 

Consider this, I have a DVD. I can copy it. I rip it to another disk. I can store it on a hard drive. This does not violate the copyright laws for the DVD......

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Also, it may be worth it to check and find out what online support materials are available. I discovered that for about $6.50 US I could get access to most of the reading sections of DD's Cambridge Latin texts online via the subscription side of their website, with a lot of other support materials. That's FAR less than the textbook costs, and DD prefers the iPad version. Getting the TE gives me the comprehension questions and other materials that would have been in the textbook, and the total cost is less.

 

Quite a few of the textbook publishers that sell to PS markets are putting online versions of their texts available, and that might be a better choice than scanning.

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Consider this, I have a DVD. I can copy it. I rip it to another disk. I can store it on a hard drive. This does not violate the copyright laws for the DVD......

 

Exactly. You have the legal right to back up and keep multiple product copies of an item you purchased, as long as it stays within your home. The copyright violation comes in when you distribute and/or resell outside your home.

 

For ex, one could not copy workbooks on to iPads and then distribute them to a co-op

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Exactly. You have the legal right to back up and keep multiple product copies of an item you purchased, as long as it stays within your home. The copyright violation comes in when you distribute and/or resell outside your home.

 

For ex, one could not copy workbooks on to iPads and then distribute them to a co-op

 

Agreeing. I think comparing what you do with your three children in your own home with a university professor's classroom isn't fair.

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These are interesting points. However, a college is receiving money for it's educational services and the professor is making a salary doing his job. I, on the other hand, do not make a profit. In fact, and this may not be a strong point, but I could have my dc in public school and not buy even one workbook.

 

It does seem that the copyright laws are behind the times in many ways. I think that is the main reason we are all seeing the issue differently because it is not very clear. :confused:

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I did get a reply to my question about e-books and digital products from Memoria Press. Here is their reply:

 

We are working on entering the e-book market, but we are going into it reluctantly. We are all book-lovers here (did you read Martin's article in the e-blast that just went out?), but we do have some young people working here that are pushing us into it! I've been told by Paul Schaeffer that it's a generational thing and that I'm just old or I'd love e-books!

 

But, Paul is working hard to get us into this market. We are planning for our first e-book to be Butler's translation of the Iliad and Odyssey along with the study guides that go with that book. We'll see how that goes for us, and then we'll move forward from there. I'm not sure what is involved, but keep checking our website, and one day you'll see that we've moved into the 21st century - kicking and screaming!

 

 

So if these products fill a need for you, encourage Memoria Press by purchasing them. :) I think those are high school level materials.

 

This whole idea of Ipads for schooling has got me thinking how I can better equip my dc to be tech savvy before they go to college. I see many public and private schools are teaching their students computer skills and things like that, so maybe it's something we should teach as well. I'm mulling over how that might look, but helping then use these tools wisely and for things other than games seems like a worthy objective.

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I think we all have to realize that tablets are in the educational future of our students. I feel that, by the time my son is in college, that will be all that is used (as far a computers go). I love, love, love books; but I want to embrace this technology and use it to its full potential.

 

If you look at public schools, they are already on this. Some schools issue laptops to their students for high school. I would have welcomed an e-reader or tablet in my classroom. Most textbook companies just have a link that the students can go to, to access their textbooks. No more, I left my book at school, I guess!

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I think we all have to realize that tablets are in the educational future of our students. I feel that, by the time my son is in college, that will be all that is used (as far a computers go). I love, love, love books; but I want to embrace this technology and use it to its full potential.

 

If you look at public schools, they are already on this. Some schools issue laptops to their students for high school. I would have welcomed an e-reader or tablet in my classroom. Most textbook companies just have a link that the students can go to, to access their textbooks. No more, I left my book at school, I guess!

 

:iagree: Especially with the bolded part.

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