Giving up on the "Classical" dream......

[MyLittleBears]

I have been trying to stick as closely as possible to TWTM because, I love it. The trivium makes sense to me, philosophically, developmentally.

But I've been slowly and painfully coming to the conclusion that it may just be a pipe dream.

 

Ds 11 has auditory processing issues and working memory problems.. he is so slow with everything and it's not getting easier with puberty on the way. It seems that what he learns in grammar does not carry over to his actual writing. He still writes in fragments and does not seems to even notice unless I point it out. I feel as though we get the 3Rs done and barely have time for anything else. Latin...that's a laugh. We're always waiting for him to finish math.We're lucky we cover history and science.

 

Ds 8 moderately dyslexic and is still reading on an early 1st grade level, even though we've been trying since kindergarten. He has auditory processing issues. He is stuck at the learning to read level while others move on to spelling/grammar/writing etc..

Ds newly 6 is just about the only one that will be able to keep up with what he is supposed to be doing at the different stages. The 8yr old actually asked me,

"Who is going to read first, him or me?"(refering to the 6yr old) It nearly broke my heart!

 

I am I just living a dream, that my children will be well educated? Or will I be tredding water and covering the basics for years or maybe for their entire student career? :crying:

Edited March 30, 2012 by MyLittleBears

[Bluegoat]

I can't give any advice on teahing the mechanical skills. But I don't think that it would be a good idea to spend all your time on those things - that is no way for anyone to live (you or the boys!) Latin might not be a good choice, but art study, working with their hands, singing, going to the theater, and listening to real literature read aloud are all part of being well educated in a broad sense and may be things they can do, and even things they might love. Maybe even reciting poetry aloud.

 

There is nothing wrong with a child who is great at tinkering with mechanical items, growing vegetables, or acting in play rather than being a really great writer. And I think it is important to do fun things even if skills are not coming on schedule - going to an SCA tournament or the art gallery or whatever.

[MyLittleBears]

I can't give any advice on teahing the mechanical skills. But I don't think that it would be a good idea to spend all your time on those things - that is no way for anyone to live (you or the boys!) Latin might not be a good choice, but art study, working with their hands, singing, going to the theater, and listening to real literature read aloud are all part of being well educated in a broad sense and may be things they can do, and even things they might love. Maybe even reciting poetry aloud.

 

There is nothing wrong with a child who is great at tinkering with mechanical items, growing vegetables, or acting in play rather than being a really great writer. And I think it is important to do fun things even if skills are not coming on schedule - going to an SCA tournament or the art gallery or whatever.

 

Thank you, I think I needed to hear that.

 

I did give up on latin long ago and we do TONS of read alouds. We even did public presentations through our 4H.(something I thought would never happen since my middle ds is so shy)

I guess part of my problem is that I am wired differently than my dc, at least the older two. I do not have a creative bone in my body so art (which they are great at) it very difficult for me.

I started reading dyslexic advantage but got busy with other things. Perhaps I should bring it back out. :tongue_smilie:

[EKS]

I found that using WTM as a general guide was better than getting caught up in the details. Do what is best for your kids. You may (and probably will) need to tweak things to make them work for your family. That's ok!

[rafiki]

.

[Guest]

Does this help a bit :)?

 

It's a rare parent who will follow this program exactly. The freedom to tailor an academic program to your child's particular interests and needs is one of home education's greatest advantages. We've explained the general philosophy that governs each part of the curriculum, but our specific schedules, texts, and programs are just illustrations of how to put this philosophy into practice.

 

You can follow one part of the program, but not another. If, for example, you've found a math curriculum that works well for your sixth grader, you can use the language resources we suggest without feeling as through you've got to convert to the math books we like. If your high-school student already has a literature list he's reading his way through, you can still use our writing and grammar suggestions without adopting our reading list.

 

In the classical curriculum, reading, writing, grammar, and math are the center of the curriculum. History and science become more and more important as the child matures. Foreign languages are immensely valuable, but shouldn't crowd out these basic skill areas. And music and art are wonderful when you can manage them.

 

By the way, the quotes are from the WTM, second edition, pg. XXIII-XXIV with the title: "Practical Considerations: Using the Well-Trained Mind Without Losing You Own" ;)

[MomatHWTK]

I don't think we are classical per se, but I feel my kids will get a good exposure to knowledge. I have chosen to accomodate the children's learning needs and still teach what I want to teach. Now, we don't always do the seatwork, there's not a lot of memorization, and I don't test oldest DS on much.

 

What I do is share knowledge with them. I use varying resources and formats to show them what there is to learn out there. We work on the three R's within each child's individual abilities, striving to make steady progress. But, I don't keep a timeline of what must be accomplished because my kids don't fit the timeline.

 

Try your best to enjoy the journey while also steadily improving your child's skills. :grouphug:

[MyLittleBears]

But, I don't keep a timeline of what must be accomplished because my kids don't fit the timeline.

 

Try your best to enjoy the journey while also steadily improving your child's skills. :grouphug:

 

Thank you for reminding me of this. I nearly cried.

 

 

Marie, I must have overlooked this section in TWTM. Will be looking it up.

 

Michelle, thank you for those resources.

 

 

I appreciate all your responses. They really made me think, step back, and take a few much needed deep breaths.

[Guest]

Marie, I must have overlooked this section in TWTM. Will be looking it up.

 

I have owned my WTM 2nd edition since 2008, yet this is the first time I am reading it cover to cover ;). Prior to this, I just used it as a resource, only flipping to the parts that I wanted. Now, I am beginning to feel that it may fit what I want to accomplish much better than when I was going around in circles between all the options out there. To a certain degree, I lost focus. Many of the things that the WTM recommends doing with your preschooler for example, I had already, instinctively, been doing with Adrian when he was that age. Then I started getting hung up on curricula and overcomplicated things. I am now trying to go back to basics and trying to set my own goals, rather than trying to meet the goals of one curriculum provider or another. Either way, I intend to use the WTM the way that it works for my family :) and I was really pleased to find out that this was what Jessie Wise and SWB intended all along.

[SonshineLearner]

Did you read the article about the little girl who grew up to be well educated, whose parents had read an incredible amount to her while she grew up? They read... and read more... above her level.... I can't give a link.. wish I could... At the end it commented that she had Down Syndrome. Seriously, it impressed upon me that I should be reading even more to my child.

[crazyfordlr]

I know what you mean...I had this revelation at work during an all-hands meeting. Something triggered me and I started crying right there. Talk about embarrassing!!! I quietly got up, went to the breakroom to compose myself, and try to get back in the game. The store manager came in, gave me a big bear hug, and assured me that my kids will be just fine!!! She reminded me that we're all just doing our best in life and I needed to go home and hug my kids. I needed to enjoy them and take a step back.

 

It's so easy to get overwhelmed with therapies, remediation, expectation, etc. We want so much for our kids. We work so hard to make sure they get what the need as well as what they want. It's hard to be a mom. I keep reminding myself that no matter how short I may fall by my own expectations, we're leaps and bounds ahead of ps. I remind myself that success shouldn't be measured by what college they go to or what degree they hold or even what job/career they have. Are they happy and satisfied?

 

I try to remember the prayer I've had since the day I found out I was pregnant...Please, God, I want my child to be happy and healthy. I want her to love life and love herself. Amen.

[PeterPan]

This is just a hard thing to go through, the reality check part of parenting. I'll tell you though, I think it's important to go back to your GOALS and write them out and say them to yourself till you believe them and nothing else. That nothing else includes WTM. ;)

 

My goals for my kids: Love God, love others, and have the tools with which to serve. That's it. Never even occurred to me that a goal should be that they be well-educated. You said it was important to you, but is it actually a GOAL? Maybe you have some other values that would bubble up that trump even that? Sometimes those values trump other good things. Education is temporary. You can't eat education and it won't clothe and house you in the wilderness. There are eternal values, things that will be valuable to them much after their high school and college educations are done. That's what you want to get in touch with.

 

Now for some practical advice. Latin is not necessary. Heck, I'm not sure it's even as valuable as they claim. It could be, but an awful lot of people live and die just fine without it. I also don't think it's necessary to do the WTM recs straight or follow the herds to have a good, whole, WELL-ROUNDED education. I think WTM is first and foremost advocating a *rich experience* that allows the child to become all he can be. I think rich and what suits the child really varies, you know? And I'll bet if you looked, you probably have your own version of rich and the things you do well and the things that suit you. And I think if you follow the things your family DOES WELL and really milk them and get into them, you're giving a gift to your kids. No one is good at everything and it doesn't have to line up with someone else's expectations. So find what you want them to be rich in, and make them rich in that.

 

For our family that richness is loving nature. We have lots of trail guides and take walks and look at tracks and tromp through the woods. If you've ever read Nan in Mass's posts, her richness to her sons was in sailing. It doesn't have to be a book thing. It can be, and some of that book stuff is nice. Let it fit your family. Find what your family enjoys.

 

Two, I think it's a trap to feel you ought to be doing the WTM stuff. The WTM is valuable as a skill progression. For actually recommendations, well it's nice that they're in there as a starting point, but mercy I don't think ANYTHING straight out of WTM has worked for my dd. (Except for maybe the read aloud suggestions in K5, lol.) We've always adapted. Just free yourself to use the SPIRIT and ditch the letter. You still fit in. Lots of people use R&S but not everyone has a thought out approach to why they're doing what they're doing. They're not necessarily thinking about foundational skills and basics. When you do, you're classical. When you care about that foundation, you're on the right track.

 

Gotta go, kid is up. Keep on keeping on! Oh, the last thing was that, for us, any time we've put into "therapy" activities has been as valuable as regular school work. I highly recommend pursuing any options you have there. Could be stuff you do at home from Linguisystems or whatever.

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[MyLittleBears]

This is just a hard thing to go through, the reality check part of parenting. I'll tell you though, I think it's important to go back to your GOALS and write them out and say them to yourself till you believe them and nothing else. That nothing else includes WTM. ;)

 

My goals for my kids: Love God, love others, and have the tools with which to serve. That's it. Never even occurred to me that a goal should be that they be well-educated. You said it was important to you, but is it actually a GOAL? Maybe you have some other values that would bubble up that trump even that? Sometimes those values trump other good things. Education is temporary. You can't eat education and it won't clothe and house you in the wilderness. There are eternal values, things that will be valuable to them much after their high school and college educations are done. That's what you want to get in touch with.

 

Now for some practical advice. Latin is not necessary. Heck, I'm not sure it's even as valuable as they claim. It could be, but an awful lot of people live and die just fine without it. I also don't think it's necessary to do the WTM recs straight or follow the herds to have a good, whole, WELL-ROUNDED education. I think WTM is first and foremost advocating a *rich experience* that allows the child to become all he can be. I think rich and what suits the child really varies, you know? And I'll bet if you looked, you probably have your own version of rich and the things you do well and the things that suit you. And I think if you follow the things your family DOES WELL and really milk them and get into them, you're giving a gift to your kids. No one is good at everything and it doesn't have to line up with someone else's expectations. So find what you want them to be rich in, and make them rich in that.

 

For our family that richness is loving nature. We have lots of trail guides and take walks and look at tracks and tromp through the woods. If you've ever read Nan in Mass's posts, her richness to her sons was in sailing. It doesn't have to be a book thing. It can be, and some of that book stuff is nice. Let it fit your family. Find what your family enjoys.

 

Two, I think it's a trap to feel you ought to be doing the WTM stuff. The WTM is valuable as a skill progression. For actually recommendations, well it's nice that they're in there as a starting point, but mercy I don't think ANYTHING straight out of WTM has worked for my dd. (Except for maybe the read aloud suggestions in K5, lol.) We've always adapted. Just free yourself to use the SPIRIT and ditch the letter. You still fit in. Lots of people use R&S but not everyone has a thought out approach to why they're doing what they're doing. They're not necessarily thinking about foundational skills and basics. When you do, you're classical. When you care about that foundation, you're on the right track.

 

Gotta go, kid is up. Keep on keeping on! Oh, the last thing was that, for us, any time we've put into "therapy" activities has been as valuable as regular school work. I highly recommend pursuing any options you have there. Could be stuff you do at home from Linguisystems or whatever.

 

Thank you! Yes, it's time to revaluate and rewrite my homeschooling goals. My goals are actually for them to love God, and love others. I keep telling them that they can choose whatever occupation they want in life (even the garbage man), as long as they love God. It was the goal, from the start of our homeschool 3 years ago. Somehow I have lost perspective since realizing my kids have learning disablities and how much harder it makes things. At times the curricula itself is the distractor.

 

Thank you all for your responses. It helps to put things into perspective and is very reasurring. Thanks for being my support system. My appreciation is beyond words. :grouphug: Trying to count how many times you all have brought me to tears.

 

And I will note: no "school" today. Going out to shoot bows and arrows with the littles and big brother went with dad to help a friend put up the walls of his pole barn!

 

I thinks a can get the hang of this! :D

Edited March 30, 2012 by MyLittleBears

[kareng]

This is just a hard thing to go through, the reality check part of parenting. I'll tell you though, I think it's important to go back to your GOALS and write them out and say them to yourself till you believe them and nothing else. That nothing else includes WTM. ;)

 

My goals for my kids: Love God, love others, and have the tools with which to serve. That's it. Never even occurred to me that a goal should be that they be well-educated. You said it was important to you, but is it actually a GOAL? Maybe you have some other values that would bubble up that trump even that? Sometimes those values trump other good things. Education is temporary. You can't eat education and it won't clothe and house you in the wilderness. There are eternal values, things that will be valuable to them much after their high school and college educations are done. That's what you want to get in touch with.

 

I think WTM is first and foremost advocating a *rich experience* that allows the child to become all he can be. I think rich and what suits the child really varies, you know? And I'll bet if you looked, you probably have your own version of rich and the things you do well and the things that suit you. And I think if you follow the things your family DOES WELL and really milk them and get into them, you're giving a gift to your kids. No one is good at everything and it doesn't have to line up with someone else's expectations. So find what you want them to be rich in, and make them rich in that.

 

For our family that richness is loving nature. We have lots of trail guides and take walks and look at tracks and tromp through the woods. If you've ever read Nan in Mass's posts, her richness to her sons was in sailing. It doesn't have to be a book thing. It can be, and some of that book stuff is nice. Let it fit your family. Find what your family enjoys.

 

 

 

Thank you OhElizabeth (again) for putting things in perspective. It can be very hard for some of us to not get caught up in the "academic" expectations of the world, of our families, of our own and to forget what really matters. I like the idea of Goals. How can you get some where if you don't know what you're aiming for? It's like shooting arrows in the dark, with no set purpose in mind. :-)

 

One thing about teaching a SN kid is, I believe, you've got to truly let go of other people's expectations. And especially the expectations of the K-8 board! I think we are all guilty of letting other people talk us into -- or out of -- expectations of where our kids should be or what they should be doing or how they should be doing it.)

 

A SN kid needs Mom more than ever to be that person to step in and make adjustments to the "program", whatever that program might be (WTM, Classical, traditional, lit-based, etc). You gotta mix it up. You gotta use what works and ditch the rest. You gotta block out the noise and keep moving forward, one step at a time.

 

And Shari, I so appreciate what you had to share. I LOVE the part you said that I highlighted above -- a SN kid needs Mom more than ever to be that person to step in and make adjustments to the "program". You gotta find what works for you and your family and use it, blocking out the noise!

 

AMEN! Thanks, ladies for encouraging me along the way. I used to teach in public school (many years ago!) but still find myself from time to time getting sucked into what "others" (whoever THEY are) might think. Thanks for the reminder of what really matters. :001_smile:

[dsmith]

We gave up on WTM a while ago, but I have found some success with Memoria Press products. We do a lot orally, and read alouds are a big part of our day. Life skills are also a good part of our day. We don’t have testing in my state, or any reporting at all, so I don’t feel pressure to have this done by that date anymore. We just go at our own pace. It took me a few years to relax into this frame of mind. Memoria Press is publishing a book about classical education with special needs kids. I’m hoping it will be helpful. The author is speaking at the conference they are holding. I wish I could go! I’ve been thinking lately about when I will be officially graduating my son. It doesn’t seem realistic to graduate him at 17, or even 18. I guess we have to take it day by day, month by month, etc... Sometimes I wish I could peer into the future, kwim?

[MyLittleBears]

We gave up on WTM a while ago, but I have found some success with Memoria Press products. We do a lot orally, and read alouds are a big part of our day. Life skills are also a good part of our day. We don’t have testing in my state, or any reporting at all, so I don’t feel pressure to have this done by that date anymore. We just go at our own pace. It took me a few years to relax into this frame of mind. Memoria Press is publishing a book about classical education with special needs kids. I’m hoping it will be helpful. The author is speaking at the conference they are holding. I wish I could go! I’ve been thinking lately about when I will be officially graduating my son. It doesn’t seem realistic to graduate him at 17, or even 18. I guess we have to take it day by day, month by month, etc... Sometimes I wish I could peer into the future, kwim?

 

Can't wait to see this!

 

We don't have testing nor reporting in our state either. I can't even imagine have that pressure so we are extremely thankful.

Edited April 3, 2012 by MyLittleBears

[PeterPan]

AMEN! Thanks, ladies for encouraging me along the way. I used to teach in public school (many years ago!) but still find myself from time to time getting sucked into what "others" (whoever THEY are) might think. Thanks for the reminder of what really matters. :001_smile:

 

I fight really hard the getting sucked in thing, because I know our time is short. Today I had the "we have 5 years left and let's do this no regrets" talk with dd. We talked about school and just about really EMBRACING what we're doing and doing it with no regrets. I think you'd regret not getting your kid basic skills (composition, math, practical living), absolutely. I also think you'd regret spending so much time stressed and screaming and nagging that you didn't have time to build a relationship or for the dc to pursue interests. That would be a regret. But on pitiful stuff like latin no latin, you are NOT gonna regret that. You're not going to regret that now or 20 years from now. There's just no way.

 

Our trip to Alaska a year and a half ago was the real epiphany for me. We drove around the wilderness for 2 weeks, and I felt like I finally got connected to REALITY and eternality and what it really takes to live. And that's how I figured out how little some stuff really matters. A lot just doesn't pass muster when you're out there. And that's not saying we don't teach our kids things because we're all going to live in a wilderness. It's just saying some things are negotiable and some things are foundational to strong, happy living, living with character and success WHEREVER you are. And I don't want to confuse the two.

[PeterPan]

We gave up on WTM a while ago, but I have found some success with Memoria Press products. We do a lot orally, and read alouds are a big part of our day. Life skills are also a good part of our day. We don’t have testing in my state, or any reporting at all, so I don’t feel pressure to have this done by that date anymore. We just go at our own pace. It took me a few years to relax into this frame of mind. Memoria Press is publishing a book about classical education with special needs kids. I’m hoping it will be helpful. The author is speaking at the conference they are holding. I wish I could go! I’ve been thinking lately about when I will be officially graduating my son. It doesn’t seem realistic to graduate him at 17, or even 18. I guess we have to take it day by day, month by month, etc... Sometimes I wish I could peer into the future, kwim?

 

Ooo, I didn't know about this! This is DEFINITELY a need, mercy. Do you know who the author will be? I should see if they're coming to the Cincy convention. MP usually brings a contingent of people (Cheryl Lowe, Martin Cothran, etc.). I really love the redaction they did of Guerber. I don't find myself comfortable with them religiously or as far as goals in education, but I love who screwed on straight their heads are. They just think through things really well. And to the extent that you're finding ways to use the logic and clear, straightforward presentation of the materials but make it work for your kid, that's really interesting. We did their latin and were so-so on the experience. (not flashy, but it was at least very clear) I went to Cothran's talk on logic last year and was blown away. It just brought such elegant clarity to the topic. He's clearly a man who can outline, lol.

 

So have you tried using TL? That's on my hit list or dream list for dd.

Edited April 3, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[dsmith]

Ooo, I didn't know about this! This is DEFINITELY a need, mercy. Do you know who the author will be? I should see if they're coming to the Cincy convention. MP usually brings a contingent of people (Cheryl Lowe, Martin Cothran, etc.). I really love the redaction they did of Guerber. I don't find myself comfortable with them religiously or as far as goals in education, but I love who screwed on straight their heads are. They just think through things really well. And to the extent that you're finding ways to use the logic and clear, straightforward presentation of the materials but make it work for your kid, that's really interesting. We did their latin and were so-so on the experience. (not flashy, but it was at least very clear) I went to Cothran's talk on logic last year and was blown away. It just brought such elegant clarity to the topic. He's clearly a man who can outline, lol.

 

So have you tried using TL? That's on my hit list or dream list for dd.

 

I believe the author’s name is Cheryl Swopes. She responded to one of my posts on the forums at MP, about giving up on Latin with ds. I’m hoping her book will have a lot of practical advice and ways to tweak curriculum for different kids.

 

I recently purchased TL to look at. We have been going through the Mindbenders series, which ds enjoys. My first reaction is to say it would be too much for ds at this point, but I’m going to give it a try next year. Sometimes he really surprises me. I like to think I know exactly what he can and can’t handle, but I have been proven wrong a few times.:D I would love to hear Cothran speak! I wish MP would make recordings available for purchase.

[TippyCanoe]

.

[TGHEALTHYMOM]

:grouphug:

 

I have the challenge of having 7 children and one on the way!

Really wish I had not donated my 2nd edition to our library who has not put it on their shelves anyway... GRRR!

 

Our oldest ds14 and one middle dd8 have had many struggles with reading, spelling, and major obstacles.

As I researched dyslexia I found that Sequential spelling finally is helping our son.

Our dd is another story, I keep trying to teach her to read, and thought she would learn with her brother who is 10 now. He took off bus she kept hitting the wall. I felt so badly for over 4 years, and bought Alphabet Island finally and we are enjoying it. I had to explain to her so many times that she is not dumb. I also try to focus on her strengths and character.

She did not want to use a "Babyish" program. And it hurt her that she did not seem to be able to remember anything (phonics, words, letters) for a long stretch.

 

This week she has started reading to me on her own will. She has a Rocket Reader Bible for grade 1-2 and is slowly reading it to me.

She is going back to practice as I told her she should too. It will be a struggle, but baby steps are a blessing!

 

So, we stick to the basics, but also use Prima Latina videos, cd's, and practice. We listen to the Classical Conversations Cd's as well as read TSOTW books, and are getting ready to start lapbooking.

 

It is difficult I am sure for you, but don't give up completely. The writers of Alphabet Island had struggling learners who seemed not to be able to read.... but they did not give up.

 

Even a famous writer, and speaker admitted that one son who was 16 at the time, had just begun to like reading a little.

 

We all have our struggles. Just don't give up. :grouphug:

 

I pray the Serenity Prayer and give the past to GOD!

[PeterPan]

I believe the author’s name is Cheryl Swopes. She responded to one of my posts on the forums at MP, about giving up on Latin with ds. I’m hoping her book will have a lot of practical advice and ways to tweak curriculum for different kids.

 

I recently purchased TL to look at. We have been going through the Mindbenders series, which ds enjoys. My first reaction is to say it would be too much for ds at this point, but I’m going to give it a try next year. Sometimes he really surprises me. I like to think I know exactly what he can and can’t handle, but I have been proven wrong a few times.:D I would love to hear Cothran speak! I wish MP would make recordings available for purchase.

 

He's going to be at the Cincinnati homeschool convention again. It's one of 4 or 5 the Great Homeschool Conventions people are putting on around the country. I'm assuming he goes to all 5, haven't checked. There might be one close enough to you to be worth the trip. If not, you could come to Cincinnati in two weeks. It's HUGE. :D