Writing help needed

[Pam L in Mid Tenn]

My 11th grade son needs something different for expository writing. I have no idea how to teach him at this point.

 

Creative writing? No problem. Well, I do correct spelling and grammar mistakes, but he can write a story.

 

We've done IEW so he can write "ok" using the various IEW techniques to a specific criteria of instructions.

 

But, when I give him a rather vauge or open assignment, he only writes a few sentences. For example, if I ask for a two page report on an historical event he has no idea where or how to begin. When we sit together and walk through the steps of brainstorming or clustering, formulating a topic sentence, outlining possible paragraphs, or other ways to start writing, he does a fine job. Orally.

 

He wants to take some dual enrollment next year at CC but I can not (and will not) "walk him through" writing the papers that will be required. Heck, even if he does not do CC next year, I still do not want to hold his hand for every writing assignment.

 

Because I've been working so much recently I've asked for oral narrations or oral reports to gauge understanding rather than assign a paper.

 

He is 11th grade. I've got about another year to teach this kid how to write a report. HELP! (Don't even ask about essay writing! We are SO NOT THERE with this one!)

 

Is there anything like "Lial's" for writing?

What curriculum would you suggest? (other than IEW)

Is there something online sort of similar to "interactmath"?

[Trilliums]

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/

And

 

The Lively Art of Writing

 

I have just started to use this with my kids but I already see improvement.

[Pam L in Mid Tenn]

I have The Lively Art of Writing sitting right here!

Now to click on that link.......

 

(Anyone else?)

[1Togo]

Since you mentioned IEW, I have to ask if you covered cover Unit 6? It is one of the best report units I have found. Beyond that, I sugggest Julie Bogart's "Help for High School." It's written to the student. It covers exploratory and persuasive essays with documentation.

 

If not that, then Julie's classes. The teacher input is excellent.

Edited February 13, 2012 by 1Togo

[SailorMom]

Just got my used copy of The Lively Art of Writing in the mail today.

It looks FANTASTIC!

[Nscribe]

Upon reading in your post "...he does a fine job. Orally." I recalled once tutoring a student using a voice recorder. He struggled with a blank piece of paper and vague instructions, but given a typed list of general ways to get started and a voice recorder he found that bridge to beginning. After recording what came to mind, he would replay it and begin to type. We would print this initial "draft" and he would build from it to meet the objective. Something about not having a blank screen or page did the trick for him.

[MtnTeaching]

Since you mentioned IEW, I have to ask if you covered cover Unit 6? It is one of the best report units I have found. Beyond that, I sugggest Julie Bogart's "Help for High School." It's written to the student. It covers exploratory and persuasive essays with documentation.

 

If not that, then Julie's classes. The teacher input is excellent.

 

 

The absolute best thing ds has taken is the Brave Writer online "Expository Essay" class. It broke down the essay, was thorough, and challenging. The teacher, Jean Hall, is amazing.

 

My son also just finished a literary analysis class with BW and I noticed that they have the Spring class schedule up. They run about 6 weeks long.

 

I cannot recommend this class enough for what it did for my son's essay writing skills. Take a look here .

[laughing lioness]

WWS starts with narration, note taking and ends with a research paper. It moves quickly and covers a LOT of ground.

By lesson 4 the kids are learning how to write a paper about a historical event.

[Pam L in Mid Tenn]

What is WWS?

 

And,

I like the idea of recording orally and then typing out the draft.

 

Also,

We have done Unit 4 and Unit 6 of IEW. Maybe I should get SWI C? But I think that would just give us more of what we already have. I wish there were some theme based writing from IEW that only teaches Unit 4 and Unit 6. Still he can do IEW because he has an extremely specific list of regulations to follow.

 

That still,

Does NOT give him the ability to write a research report or essay on an assigned topic WITHOUT the extreme specifics that a professor will give in college.

 

More suggestions please.:D

And THANKS for ALL these replies!

[laughing lioness]

WWS = Writing with Skill by SWB. I'm using it with 6th -9th graders this spring/summer.

 

I wouldn't be put off by the fact that it is marketed for younger kids. It is a simple program to implement and learn from but moves quickly, covers a lot of ground and difficult concepts with ease (like IEW).

 

Part I- Basic Skills- narrative summaries, note taking, outlines, thesaurus.

Part II- Bldg Blocks for Composition- chronological narratives & scientific descriptions

Part III- Sentence Skills

Part IV- Beg Lit Criticism- Prose

Part V- Research

Part VI- Beg Lit Crit- Poetry

Part VII- Final Project (Research project)

 

You can get up to week 10 of the SM and TM here

[Pam L in Mid Tenn]

Thank you Lisa.

[Guest]

My older 2 are the same way. Creative writing? No problem. Academic writing? SCREECH! The brakes get slammed. The only 5 paragraph essay my oldest has written was the first opinion essay from Jump In!. It took him over 5 hours to write it. We are going back to Jump In! because it is the only one we made any progress with. Perhaps the WordSmith series might be of use to you?

[Farmgirl70]

I have an 11th grader with difficulties writing, too--a science lover who hates writing of ANY kind! He writes slowly and laboriously. We're using "Essay Voyage" from Michael Clay Thompson, though I am modifying the subjects of the writing assignments. Progress is slow and I wonder, too, how he'll ever write in college. It's not as though we haven't worked on writing, but getting things from his head to the paper is really difficult for him.

[Julie in MN]

But, when I give him a rather vauge or open assignment, he only writes a few sentences. For example, if I ask for a two page report on an historical event he has no idea where or how to begin. When we sit together and walk through the steps of brainstorming or clustering, formulating a topic sentence, outlining possible paragraphs, or other ways to start writing, he does a fine job. Orally.

 

It seems like he's floundering because he doesn't have a thesis. The biggest thing I've retained from college is that if you don't have a thesis, then neither the writer nor the reader knows what he's doing. I'm guessing you are being more vague than a typical college prof will be, although I'm not sure. Are you giving him a particular historical event, and particular issue to explore regarding that event?

 

Also, my youngest is very creative and what works with him wouldn't work with less creative writers. He simply starts writing on a topic, before the thesis has been narrowed down. Then we go over his work and discuss what he seems to be "saying" with it, or what is easiest to support. Then he might start over even, now that he's got a sense of purpose or a thesis. This works since creative ideas are not a problem for him. If this is what your son is doing, maybe it just works for him?

 

Julie

[laughing lioness]

Thank you Lisa.

 

ymvw. We are loving it!

[Create Your Ritual]

Laughing Lioness.. I would have to agree with you about the WWS. We are on week 22 of it right now and the moment she asked about the historical paper I thought of all the work we did earlier on with writing a Chronological Narrative about a historical event. The information is fairly well laid out and makes sense. I often wish my dd10 (5th) was older so that all of it really stuck, but I know SWB will review and grow with it in subsequent years.

 

We are also using CC Narrative right now and adding in CW Homer's 6 sentence shuffle for the copia work and Theon's 6 components. I would say that for where we are with it right now, it is more of a creative writing exercise, but it has helped immensely to give them practice in varying sentence openers and becoming more descriptive in their writing. Initially with WWS I wasn't seeing the work we were doing in CC bleed over at all as they were too caught up in just getting the organization down. Now that it is Week 22 I am seeing dd become more comfortable with the organization and brings in CCs figures of description more often.

[Kim in SouthGa]

We are struggling with writing also. Writing programs frustrate him because he doesn't like generic assignments, like "write an essay on your summer vacation". I don't blame him-they drive me batty also. I want our writing to be integrated to the rest of our curriculum. We are trying a couple of things. First, there was a post on this forum about the 8 sentence paragraph. Also, this list of rules: http://www.americanshakespearecenter.com/v.php?pg=184

So, we read Beowulf, used the SMARR lit guide, looked up and discussed some possible topics for an essay on Sparks notes, etc (just googled Beowulf essay topics and found tons of stuff). He has the 8 sentence paragraph rules. I gave him an hour to write the essay because he kept putting it off and building it up to be impossible in his head. After he finished, I printed off the 39 rules from the above link and highlighted the major rules he broke. I circled the first couple of instances on his essay paper and put the rule # beside it, then sent him off to finish finding the errors himself. He is rewriting it with corrections. Then we will do it again (I'm sure he missed some). After that, he has some major flaws in his argument that we will work on. Joy:glare: I may have him read through Rulebook for Arguments first and reread his essay after every few rules to see if he finds a problem. I told him that we are going to be working on refining this essay for at least a couple of months. I have been bad about just letting him make a few corrections and move on so he could read more books, but I finally decided to just STOP and perfect this essay first. The 39 rules are wonderful, and I think it is helping him to see that someone besides me does not let him start a sentence with "It" or use slang. ;)

I think one of the things that has really helped him is having a formula of sorts-the 5 paragraph essay with 8 sentence paragraphs. Next year I want him to take a research paper class. I keep trying to remember what all types of writing I had to do in college, and it was mainly either answering essay questions on tests or doing research papers. I don't really remember having to write 5 paragraph essays, except for the intro writing class.

[MtnTeaching]

We are struggling with writing also. Writing programs frustrate him because he doesn't like generic assignments, like "write an essay on your summer vacation". I don't blame him-they drive me batty also. I want our writing to be integrated to the rest of our curriculum. We are trying a couple of things. First, there was a post on this forum about the 8 sentence paragraph. Also, this list of rules: http://www.americanshakespearecenter.com/v.php?pg=184

So, we read Beowulf, used the SMARR lit guide, looked up and discussed some possible topics for an essay on Sparks notes, etc (just googled Beowulf essay topics and found tons of stuff). He has the 8 sentence paragraph rules. I gave him an hour to write the essay because he kept putting it off and building it up to be impossible in his head. After he finished, I printed off the 39 rules from the above link and highlighted the major rules he broke. I circled the first couple of instances on his essay paper and put the rule # beside it, then sent him off to finish finding the errors himself. He is rewriting it with corrections. Then we will do it again (I'm sure he missed some). After that, he has some major flaws in his argument that we will work on. Joy:glare: I may have him read through Rulebook for Arguments first and reread his essay after every few rules to see if he finds a problem. I told him that we are going to be working on refining this essay for at least a couple of months. I have been bad about just letting him make a few corrections and move on so he could read more books, but I finally decided to just STOP and perfect this essay first. The 39 rules are wonderful, and I think it is helping him to see that someone besides me does not let him start a sentence with "It" or use slang. ;)

I think one of the things that has really helped him is having a formula of sorts-the 5 paragraph essay with 8 sentence paragraphs. Next year I want him to take a research paper class. I keep trying to remember what all types of writing I had to do in college, and it was mainly either answering essay questions on tests or doing research papers. I don't really remember having to write 5 paragraph essays, except for the intro writing class.

 

These rules are great!! Thank you!!

[Julie in MN]

Also, this list of rules: http://www.americanshakespearecenter.com/v.php?pg=184

 

Thanks for that list of rules. It might come in handy. My favorite was, "Hamlet is by Shakespeare."

[Pam L in Mid Tenn]

My college daughters have both brought home assignments that read something like this:

 

Choose from the following list of topics for a 3 to 5 page, double spaced report in MLA format:

The Civil War

Lincoln-Douglas Debates

Reconstruction

 

Those are huge broad topics no real specific way to narrow down the topic!

 

I'm not as worried about ESSAYS right now. I'm more concerned about FACTUAL REASEARCH REPORTS right now. (Next week I might be freaking out about essays or outlining or taking notes.:D )

[Kim in SouthGa]

ugh! How in the world are they supposed to write about the Civil War in 3-5 pages!?! I'm guessing they are supposed to narrow the topic down on their own?

[laughing lioness]

ugh! How in the world are they supposed to write about the Civil War in 3-5 pages!?! I'm guessing they are supposed to narrow the topic down on their own?

 

This is a huge component of learning to write well- what to include, what to exclued. WWS covers this by lesson 4. Just saying...:001_smile:

[Kim in SouthGa]

Lisa, did your older kids find WWS too juvenile? I have the 10 week sample printed out to use with my 11ds, but I'm not sure how the older ones would feel about using the same curriculum as him. Are your older kids going through it at a quicker pace? I would love to hear any thoughts on using WWS for 8th grade and up.

[laughing lioness]

Kim- I'm teaching a group of 5th through 8th graders right now, including 2 12 yo's and a 13 yo (8th grader) in the group. They are loving it. The 13 yo is a very good writer already but likes the program a LOT.

 

We meet 1 hour a week. We get through 1-3 days a lesson. The kids finish the lesson at home. I am not sending reminders of homework to parents, they are having to be responsible and then they are reading their papers outloud in class (we are doing a bit on presentation as well).

So far, so good. It's all boys and they LOVE the lit selections. My ds 12 was all about the Titanic today and wanted to look up a bunch of stuff, dh was home and talked about a scientific phenomenon called "resonance" and had a great 45 min discusssion. Good stuff. No boredom!

[lewelma]

But, when I give him a rather vauge or open assignment, he only writes a few sentences. For example, if I ask for a two page report on an historical event he has no idea where or how to begin.

 

I would recommend Lost Tools of Writing which helps kids figure out WHAT to say. I have just reviewed a lot of writing curricula on the logic board

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348864

 

Ruth in NZ

Edited February 17, 2012 by lewelma

[Pam L in Mid Tenn]

Lioness,

Thanks for "just sayin' ". You've given me good info. And I can try it out for free for a few weeks.

 

Everyone else,

I'm going to look at everything you suggested too. You all have given me some great ideas.

 

Thanks!

[Susan C.]

I thought research papers still had to have a thesis to prove, which would make the paper persuasive. Factual papers, I may be thinking too much, aren't they more elementary/middle school?

 

(I can spin off this thread if I need to).

[Robin in DFW]

My dd...she was about 17 at the time...did a research paper for a distance learning science course...it was just that...a research paper...they did not require her to prove her opinion in any way, just report on the topic.

 

I guess this would vary by the assignment/assignor???

 

I'm just thinking "out loud" here...

 

Robin

[Pam L in Mid Tenn]

My college daughters have both had "reports" , as well as, "essays" and "research papers". There IS a difference between the three.

[snowbeltmom]

 

I'm not as worried about ESSAYS right now. I'm more concerned about FACTUAL REASEARCH REPORTS right now. (Next week I might be freaking out about essays or outlining or taking notes.:D )

 

Write at Home offers online workshops for learning how to write a research paper. I have been happy with the progress my kids have made using this company.

[Susan C.]

My college daughters have both had "reports" , as well as, "essays" and "research papers". There IS a difference between the three.

 

Thinking out loud here....But they all need a topic/thesis. I've heard professors don't want just a summary, but opinions and observations also. So if your paper is showing your opinions, and you are proving them, then it makes it persuasive. Ds is about to graduate with an English major, he says all forms (expository, compare/contract, etc.) are used in one paper as you need them (to prove your point).

[Trilliums]

I would love to hear any thoughts on using WWS for 8th grade and up.

 

My 8th and 9th graders are using WWS now. Previously the kids struggled with dyslexic problems in writing and math. Last year they did IEW SWI B. They have well developed vocabularies and verbal skills and read voraciously now. Neither one finds it too juvenile and they tend to be tough curriculum critics.

 

My 9th grader has turned into quite a good writer (part of this I think is developmental but he definitely internalizes & applies writing lessons). He still benefits from WWS and finds it enjoyable. The short assignments alleviate the pressure involved in producing a long report. His creative energy can focus solely on the writing, developing interesting sentences, transitions, etc. I look at them as daily writing warm-ups for him.

 

My 8th grader is still a reluctant writer. I am so happy with the segments he has written. I find them more interesting than the writings he did for IEW SWI. He has written longer reports in the past, but I am holding off on them now until he is done with WWS. He also uses Killgallon's Middle School Grammar. This is fun, but DS said he has a hard time applying the sentence structures to his own writing. I am thinking of having him pick a Killgallon sentence structure and asking him to include it in one of his next WWS assignments.

 

When PP mentioned narrowing down topics on the Civil War, I immediately thought of how the kids had to pick a section of a longer outline and write about only a section of it. Just like Laughing Lioness mentions.:)

[Julie in MN]

Thinking out loud here....But they all need a topic/thesis. I've heard professors don't want just a summary, but opinions and observations also. So if your paper is showing your opinions, and you are proving them, then it makes it persuasive. Ds is about to graduate with an English major, he says all forms (expository, compare/contract, etc.) are used in one paper as you need them (to prove your point).

 

Yes, agreeing that true writing includes "expository paragraphs," but not a whole expose. Scratching my head here with the idea that a college professor would accept a paper that just said, "This battle in the Civil War happened in this year, and this is the number of soldiers, and these are the people who were leaders..." ??? That just sounds like 5th grade work. It's in the encyclopedia, so why write it? Isn't the professor asking for some sort of point to be made, or detail to be explored?

[Pam L in Mid Tenn]

I really don't want to get into an fuss about writing in college. I am not saying that ALL of the college writing assignments have ONLY been "reports". My daughters have been assigned research papers with a thesis to defend. They have been assigned essays with opinions to defend.

 

They have also been assigned plain old REPORTS that summarize the facts of a particular topic. Heck, I remember turning in summaries of chapters in GRADUATE school many moons ago.

 

My original question is based upon the fact that my 11th grade son has a very hard time writing ANYTHING factual without being given an extremely detailed list of instructions. The easiest thing to begin with is a plain old factual REPORT.

 

Heck again..... my dh in work... produces summaries and factual reports! He does not write essays and research papers for his department.

[Kim in SouthGa]

Hi Pam

I went back and reread your questions. I'm not sure if it will help, but I can tell you how my son has been doing historical reports. He is reading HoMW. For each chapter he has to jot down some basic notes (important dates, people, events). HoMW is structured so that he may read a chapter on the Vikings, then a couple of chapters on something else, then back to the Vikings. So once a month, he has to pick a topic that he has read about in multiple chapters and combine that information in to a narrative paper. He can quickly read over the notes he has been taking for each chapter and figure out which chapters deal with the same people group or geographic region or war. Then he can see what the focus of each chapter was and make that a point for his paper (at least that is what he is supposed to do-we are working on it!). Does that make sense? Kind of like a mini-research paper with only once source and no thesis to prove, just facts.

I think there is a big difference between writing about what they have already read and writing about something that they will have to read about first. For some reason my son has done these history papers with relative ease, but he gets really uptight if he is told to write a paper about something he is not familiar with, thereby forcing him to do research. I'm assuming it is because he is already familiar with the material and can come up with a topic pretty painlessly.

hth

[Susan C.]

When ds was in high school, I let him write what I called bullet facts for history. I let him pick what he felt was important to him. Just factual recall and it was adequate. This was before I read WTM. I would require various papers from those facts now. It still worked out fine, and he got a good knowledge base that he remembered.

 

Dd18 is a senior. Discussion helps, it gets her thinking. If you don't have time for discussion, then you can have a generic list of questions for your son to ask himself while he reads. Dd is working through Windows to the World and The Lively Art of Writing and she says they are helping her in all subjects. When we started annotating in WttW, it helped solidify that when you read, you let the text talk to you, you ask questions, try to catch foreshadowing, wonder what would happen if things turned out differently, basically, have a conversation with the text. It gets you more involved with your reading rather than skimming over it.

 

Basically, you can't write if you don't have anything to say. You don't have anything to say if you don't have an opinion about what you have read, or haven't noticed anything about what you have read (beyond factual recall). If you can at least start your ds in that direction, it will give him material to write about. And it will be much more interesting.

[Pam L in Mid Tenn]

Thank you Susan and Kim,

You both have some very practical (and similar) tips to help my son with this writing.