s/o Fact Cramming, Textbooks, etc.

[1Togo]

After reading the thread on AAH, I have a few questions. Since many college courses do rely on dense, fact-cramming textbooks and not all students can easily transition into juggling lots of courses that are based on that type of learning, when do you bring that into play in your homeschool. Most of us probably use textbooks for math and science, but when do you bring the number of textbook-driven courses to five or six; i.e. the standard courseload in college? BJU was mentioned in that thread, and their high school textbooks are crammed with facts and definitions that must be learned to do well on the tests. Five or six BJU courses would be difficult for many students, especially if you include the lectures -- also a typical part of college courses. So, when, if ever, do you set up your student's high school course load to mimic or reflect a typical college workload. I realize there are colleges that use a different learning model, but for the most part, colleges rely on thick textbooks.

[regentrude]

I do not set up my children's high school to mimic a college workload. That's what college is for.

I use college texts for their science classes and a college text +TC lectures for history, and they take one college class per semester in 9th/10th grade and then two in 11th and 12th grade, respectively. That gives them a good idea what to expect.

I would not want my 14 y/o to have the workload of a serious college student; 16 credit hours plus 2 hours our of class for every hour in class (for a challenging class) adds up to a 40+ hour work week, and for this I see no need for a young student.

I teach them to work with college textbooks, to take notes on their reading and in lectures, to adhere to a syllabus and tight schedule - but I do not find it necessary to mimic a college work load.

[Jane in NC]

I'm not sure that your premise is correct. Introductory college courses may use texts but often college courses are using real books and topical texts that may be dense in content but not necessary fact filled tomes.

 

Calculus, physics, biology and chemistry texts can double as door stops. But these books are often used over the course of two semesters. Their formats are often not that different than a high school text although the content is certainly more substantial.

 

College lit courses sometimes use Norton readers but often use real books. A stack of them for the semester. We used real books in high school following the WTM guidelines. Spielvogel provided the historical context and then Great Books were read chronologically. Teaching Company lectures provided an excellent supplement, offering greater depth on works like The Aeneid or Inferno.

 

There is more to gaining knowledge than memorizing facts. It seems that a quality elementary and middle school education has already offered many facts. The high school student should be synthesizing information from seemingly disparate fields to find commonalities. I think that managing data to write quality research papers is a skill that our high schoolers need to master. Another skill is learning to read books that are not understandable initially, i.e. learning to stretch the mind. This is far more important than memorization of facts.

 

That said, students do need to learn the grammar of a second language. This may require repetitious study. Same with mastering certain mathematical algorithms.

[1Togo]

Regentrude,

 

Your children are strong students, already taking college courses at the beginning of high school, but that isn't the case for all of us. Some of our children may never take any college classes during high school, but at the same time, we are trying to bring them along to do well in college. Most high school textbook courses don't require the same amount of work as college courses, so I'm not suggesting an apples to apples experience. I am wondering when and if mothers who do not have students taking college courses in high school see a need for spending a year or two with textbooks only as prep for college, especially for students who don't learn well with that approach. It is definitely different to work with textbooks as opposed to living books. The notetaking, memorization, and study required for five or six textbook courses in college is overwhelming for some students, especially if they haven't been prepared.

Edited February 3, 2012 by 1Togo

[1Togo]

I am basing my premise on recent college courses taken by members of our family. All courses, except one, involved thick textbooks. Some courses even used two textbooks.

Edited February 3, 2012 by 1Togo

[Jane in NC]

I am basing my premise on recent college courses taken by members of our family. All courses, except one, involved thick textbooks. Some courses even used two textbooks.

 

My college student son is taking a religion course that has seven books. A couple are produced by academic publishers (i.e. Oxford University Press) but others are basic books. Another class has one of those thick texts as well as esoteric materials that are placed in the library for students to read. (He found a copy of one of those out of print books for 99 cents and was thrilled!) So I guess he has both extremes. But I will still argue that learning to read deeply and think hard are the skills--not memorization of facts.

 

This is from a former college math instructor. Students who memorize algorithms in Calculus do not progress forward. Connections must be made!

 

Text books can be dry, dry, dry. They do have their place but I think that they need to be combined with hands on learning, real books, lively discussions at the dinner table, etc.

 

Maybe the question is how does a parent up the ante in high school? More is expected and some parents worry if their kids are not having fun. Oh boy--have those discussions gotten me into trouble!!

[Colleen in NS]

So, when, if ever, do you set up your student's high school course load to mimic or reflect a typical college workload.

 

:lurk5:

 

My college student son is taking a religion course that has seven books. A couple are produced by academic publishers (i.e. Oxford University Press) but others are basic books. Another class has one of those thick texts as well as esoteric materials that are placed in the library for students to read. (He found a copy of one of those out of print books for 99 cents and was thrilled!) So I guess he has both extremes. But I will still argue that learning to read deeply and think hard are the skills--not memorization of facts.

 

This is from a former college math instructor. Students who memorize algorithms in Calculus do not progress forward. Connections must be made!

 

Text books can be dry, dry, dry. They do have their place but I think that they need to be combined with hands on learning, real books, lively discussions at the dinner table, etc.

 

Maybe the question is how does a parent up the ante in high school? More is expected and some parents worry if their kids are not having fun. Oh boy--have those discussions gotten me into trouble!!

 

I am relieved to read this, because lately I have started to wonder the same thing as the OP, only I hadn't articulated it in my mind yet. The worry comes up for me when I read of people using textbooks (other than math or maybe science) "to prepare my student for the challenges of university classes."

 

:bigear:

[1Togo]

Thanks, Jane. Perhaps my question needs to be reframed; i.e. upping the ante. I certainly don't want to get into troubling discussions. :tongue_smilie: I wasn't suggesting or even considering just memorizing facts and information as a valid route to learning. However, it's definitely part of textbook courses, high school and college level. So, my questions stand -- how and when to prep the student who doesn't do well with that learning model.

Edited February 3, 2012 by 1Togo

[Jane in NC]

Thanks, Jane. Perhaps my question needs to be reframed; i.e. upping the ante. I certainly don't want to get into troubling discussions. :tongue_smilie: I wasn't suggesting or even considering just memorizing facts and information as a valid route to learning. However, it's definitely part of textbook courses, high school and college level. So, my questions stand -- how and when to prep the student who doesn't do well with that learning model.

 

Sorry if I was being too literal in responding to your post. Not that I was trying to be an obstructionist! Really! :001_smile:

 

I will suggest though that the WTM does give a solid grounding in helping our students move into the next level of educational expectation. This is not self teaching though. My usual line is Talk, Talk, Talk. And that should be a two sided conversation--not just a lecture followed by a worksheet.

[lauracolumbus]

I think one of the most important skills is teaching your students to discern from a college lecture the important information from the text. Homeschool students who aren't in a lecture often just read the material themselves, and it's difficult to tell what are the most salient issues. However, attending lectures at least gives students an idea of what issues in the text the prof finds particularly relevant so that every iota of material in the text does not have to be mastered. At least that was my experience from the dark ages of education.

 

I think taking notes from TC lectures is helpful, but unfortunately we don't have a corresponding text.

 

Laura

[regentrude]

Well, in my first response I tried to answer the question as you phrased it : "So, when, if ever, do you set up your student's high school course load to mimic or reflect a typical college workload". I am sorry if that was not what you meant.

 

However, it's definitely part of textbook courses, high school and college level. So, my questions stand -- how and when to prep the student who doesn't do well with that learning model.

 

If I had a student who does not learn well with textbooks (my DS is a very visual learner and I am not sure whether he will do as well with textbooks as DD), I would still teach working with a textbook during high school. Even if the textbook may not be the preferred tool to deliver course content, I consider it essential skills for incoming college freshmen to be able to read a textbook and take notes on the reading (many of my underperforming students would do much better if they read the book!). So, it is something that should be taught during the high school years.

I do not believe that, in order to teach this skill, it is necessary to use textbooks exclusively, for every single course. It may suffice to choose one course for which you use a textbook - but require thorough reading and structured notes. I would strongly recommend that you go over the notes with your student, because beginners tend to either write down too much or too little. They need to learn how much is needed in terms of notes (my guideline is: you should be able to study from the notes when you study for the test and not need to reread the book.) I encourage my kids to work with bullets, color, to visually structure their notes. Some students do better if they first highlight in the text and then write out their notes.

IMO, this is a skill that can be developed beginning in the Middle grades. The outlining suggested in WTM goes a long way towards that goal (I personally do not like outlining, but prefer other formats for taking notes- but the specific technique does not matter). I see this as a gradual process - just as teaching writing is a gradual process that does not suddenly jumps up to college level. But it does not need to be worked into every.single.course if that is not the preferred method of learning for your student.

Edited February 3, 2012 by regentrude

[Susan C.]

I think the most important thing to do is to build a base of knowledge. That is why with my second child I have been more flexible with choices. As long as she is retaining the material and building on what she has learned, its all good. She'll just keep adding to the knowledge base when she attends college. As she gets older, more will come together. Heck, things are still coming together for me in the knowledge department, learning never stops.

 

My oldest did use a lot of BJU and A Beka because that was my comfort level, at the time I thought he liked them, but he has since told me that they weren't wonderful. He has a photographic memory, did entire texts, aced the tests, and did not remember any of it..... Rehashing facts on a test is not education. He has told me that in college, there is little fact recall required, it is all deeper than that.

[1Togo]

Regentrude,

 

Thank you for taking the time to give suggestions about ways to address textbook learning with students who are not strong in that area, either because it's not their learning style or because their education hasn't included many textbooks. I, also, don't know about a full line up of textbook courses, but it's something I am considering, especially since our target colleges use primarily textbooks.

[1Togo]

None of our children have a photographic memory nor do they easily ace tests, and we've had at least one child who needed to memorize lots of information and then draw from that memorized information for college tests. Although those tests were much more than fact recall, which is something I've never seen at the college level, he still needed to do quite a bit of memorization. I posted my questions and have been thinking about this issue because the pace of fast textbook courses can be overwhelming for some students, especially if they don't have a lot of experience with textbooks. Whether textbooks and tests on those textbooks provide an excellent education really isn't the heart of my question. Instead, it's preparing students for what lies ahead.

[regentrude]

I posted my questions and have been thinking about this issue because the pace of fast textbook courses can be overwhelming for some students, especially if they don't have a lot of experience with textbooks. Whether textbooks and tests on those textbooks provide an excellent education really isn't the heart of my question. Instead, it's preparing students for what lies ahead.

 

I teach at a four year university and I find that many of our students who feel overwhelmed simply do not have any realistic expectations concerning the workload. They think going to class and doing a little bit of homework should suffice, but they do not plan to spend two out-of-class hours for every in-class hour, at least for the more challenging courses.

The students who fail in my class almost all, with very rare exceptions, simply do not put in enough time.

So, one of the most important things we can teach our children to prepare them for college is to approach a 16-18 hour course load as a full time job. The student needs to have this as a mind set if he wants to succeed. I see this by far as the larger problem than the textbook reading skills.

[Cedarmom]

Hmmm, my son is in college now. I didn't use extra texts (besides math and science) but we did use a combination of Omnibus and Well Trained Mind methods. I think that more than anything is what prepared him. True, we were using real books, rather than texts. But by asking questions the questions from The Well Educated Mind, he was able to learn how to get important facts out of the book. And we had done a bunch of outlining in middle school, and that prepared him to. I truly am a believer in Classical education, as it teaches them how to think. And then you don't have to worry about doing it just like someone else does it.

[creekland]

My guys have used textbooks for almost all classes since I started homeschooling (9th, 7th, 5th respectively). They haven't had any problems adjusting to college level classes (oldest is in college now, middle has had cc classes the last two years, youngest hasn't started yet, but ought to next year).

 

They also "know" the material more than just parroting. I require it. We do many discussions and I expect anything learned in one class to carry over into another (spelling, math, geography, etc). I'm a mastery person.

 

As they got older, the textbooks got more in depth, but I can't ever pick a point where I "upped the ante."

 

Mine do spend a bit more time than their peers on academic education, but that's not saying much to be honest. Their peers do very little. I could make a video like the one on the other thread at my school...

 

My guys have plenty of free time to pursue extra curriculars or just have fun with their friends.

[Candid]

I think one of the most important skills is teaching your students to discern from a college lecture the important information from the text. Homeschool students who aren't in a lecture often just read the material themselves, and it's difficult to tell what are the most salient issues. However, attending lectures at least gives students an idea of what issues in the text the prof finds particularly relevant so that every iota of material in the text does not have to be mastered. At least that was my experience from the dark ages of education.

 

I think taking notes from TC lectures is helpful, but unfortunately we don't have a corresponding text.

 

Laura

 

This I think is key. It's not memorizing every fact in a text, but identify the key ones and using those fact in a way that connect them to each other and to give them back to the professor in a way that is fresh.

 

I once did really well on the first exam in a social science class because I drew from the classes I was taking in my major that were relevant to the material covered on that exam. I felt I had cheated at the time, but I've realized that one reason the professor liked it was I was doing what she wanted her students to do connecting information.

So, one of the most important things we can teach our children to prepare them for college is to approach a 16-18 hour course load as a full time job. The student needs to have this as a mind set if he wants to succeed. I see this by far as the larger problem than the textbook reading skills.

 

:iagree:

 

I think what throws a lot of new college students is that full time public high school is roughly six hours a day in the classroom, but a full time college schedule has half that. The difference, is more than made up for the amount of out-of-class time studying from those thick textbooks and other sources. Or, at least it is supposed to be...

 

I disagree that college classes are somehow more about memorization than earlier classes. I think the main differences is that college students take fewer classes per semester, but those classes go a lot faster.

Edited February 5, 2012 by GGardner

[Julie in MN]

ut when do you bring the number of textbook-driven courses to five or six; i.e. the standard courseload in college?

 

Don't forget that college students often take just 3 or 4 courses at a time. Maybe you're already there!

 

Julie

[8filltheheart]

My kids are not used to fact cramming. It is definitely not an approach I have ever employed in our homeschool. Nor do my kids use textbooks other than math before high school. Even in high school they don't use strictly textbooks. Yet, none of the them have had any difficulty adjusting to college. (even my dd who is my weakest student.)

 

I can't remember which poster stated it, but our experience validates that the key skill students need to learn is how to sift through all of the information that they are inundated w/and determine what is important. Outlining from textbook chapters or taking notes from books is a great way to start to develop this skill. (I actually start working on this skill in elementary school by giving my kids 3 short articles on the same topic and they have them go through and select the key pts from the articles and then synthesize the information into a single whole....iow write a report by incorporating info from all 3) An additional approach in high school is listening to Teaching Co lectures and taking notes. This requires learning to filter key pts from lesser important details.

 

I believe if students learn how to filter the info, they don't have to simply "fact cram." They have narrowed the information down so they know what they need to study and master.

Edited February 5, 2012 by 8FillTheHeart

[creekland]

Don't forget that college students often take just 3 or 4 courses at a time. Maybe you're already there!

 

Julie

 

In my experience, full time college students more commonly take 5 - 6 classes at a time (15 - 18 hours).

 

Taking just 3 courses at a time is not considered full time where my oldest goes (private LAC) or where I went (public big state U) unless, perhaps, those are at least 4 credits each.

 

I know some colleges do things differently, but I don't think they're "normal."

[Jonibee]

In reply to the OP, I think the high school science texts are a great introduction to the method of fact learning you are referring to, and they have worked well for MY expectation of the learning I expected from my kids.

 

Beginning in 7th-8th grade with the science text, I require vocabulary cards for the chapter, review of the chapter, summarizing, etc. I teach my kids that if you can know the vocabulary, often times you can answer test questions based on vocab alone, and vocab is the key to retaining knowledge. It is the first subject they study in which they try to absorb a specific body of knowledge -- not just for a test but in order to understand the material.

[Mama Geek]

I really don't think the issue is textbook vs regular books or memorization. You need to be able to read a chapter in a textbook and determine what the important points are in the chapter. This should be the case with a regular book as well. Another skill that is very important is being able to listen to the instructor and figuring out what the instructor thinks is important. There are several key phrases that most instructors will use when they think something is important enough to test on. (Know how to do this, you will see this again, this will be on the test, etc.) If an instructor says they posted last semester's test outside his office go and make a copy and make sure you can do the test. Be able to paraphrase a few things from books that you are reading so that you can provide support for essay questions. Listen to the discussions in class and focus on those areas.

 

If you are having trouble understanding the material in your book find another book on the same topic by a different author who may present it differently. Get involved in study groups if it is a class that you think will be difficult.

 

It really isn't about learning from a textbook. If you can learn from a regular book you can also learn from a textbook.

 

If all that was required was learning some out of a textbook and memorization there would be way more people graduating college than there currently are. It takes work and it takes persistence. If you give a class all that you have and still fail it pick yourself back up try it again next semester. These are the things that are hard to get past. But you know what you have to do these things in the real world anyway.

 

I just realized it sounds like a sermon and it wasn't meant to be that way.:tongue_smilie:

[Candid]

This was posted by a mom who is also a professor: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301106

 

I wish the presentation she shared could be downloaded as I'd like to make sure I have a copy. It is excellent.

[1Togo]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to post. It seems that diligent work with good materials are the key because families are having success with a variety approaches. Also, I appreciate the study tips. We are going through resources and compiling a list of study techniques. In our experience, different courses call for different methods. I can relate to Heigh Ho's post. When our oldest was in college at the local university, he had classes that required a full range of skills.

Edited February 6, 2012 by 1Togo

[Nan in Mass]

This is a good question. I don't set up my children's schedule to mimic a college course load in high school because I want them to concentrate on other things, but that doesn't mean, either, that I don't want to prepare them. We build up to it with community college classes. That gives them a more realistic idea of what sort of time is involved. At home, first I work on getting reading and writing sped up to a practical level and then I work on things like answering textbook questions, how to take a test, how to take notes, memorizing and keeping something memorized, etc. I think if I had been more diligent about working on TWTM skills in middle school, I would have to do much less of this. I probably still would have had to do some, though, because these aren't the sorts of things my older one was naturally good at. Then we do a lot of coaching through the first community college classes. You are wise to give some thought to teaching academic skills, and wise also to recognize that having good academic skills does not automatically translate into being able to juggle 5 fact-heavy college courses. There is a certain amount of skill involved in knowing when to skimp on thing to work on another and when it would be a bad idea. There are survival skills like writing down what percentage each assignment is worth and then writing down one's grades and keeping a running calculation of what you have to get minimum on the next assignment, whether you need to go for help, and whether you have been giving one course too much attention. For children like mine, this sort of thing is not immediately obvious. One also has to get through the child's head that just learning the material is not enough - one has also to convince the professor that one has learned the material, and one has to learn the aspects of the material that the professor is teaching during this class. That isn't very obvious to a WTM-trained child, either LOL. There are study books that can help you to teach this.

 

Nan

[1Togo]

Nan,

 

Thank you for this. You've put my questions in better words than I was able and discerned the heart of my post. It does take more than academic skills to juggle college classes, fact-heavy or not, and I've been thinking about the best prep. I don't know if we will go the cc route, but we've graduated two, and I am in the position to evaluate what worked and what didn't.

Edited February 6, 2012 by 1Togo

[Nan in Mass]

I'm evaluating what worked and what didn't, also. It would be much easier if my children weren't so different... The crumpled paper book has practical advice for how to begin to teach survival study skills in middle school. Towards the end of high school, we do a fair amount of coaching about strategies for keeping track of assignments (an assignment book doesn't always work for everyone), how to avoid your friends and distractions, and how to find study partners, how to study efficiently, how to get help, and things like that. This site and the others nearby: http://faculty.bucks.edu/specpop/Elabqst.htm has lots of information about taking tests and studying efficiently. The book What Smart Students Know has information about how to make all the connections you need to make when you study (and information about how to study). How to Become a Straight A Student has information about how to manage many classes at once and how to make yourself study. Beware, though - the A Student book suggests ways of studying that will be woefully inadequate for some types of students and/or some types of courses, and the Smart Student book can be overwhelming and too time-consuming to be practical under some circumstances. I think learning to answer textbook questions is partly a matter of being good at narration and partly a matter of lots of experience so that one knows what sort of scope and what sort of unspoken assumptions are involved. I think it is perfectly possible to learn this without doing all textbooks for all high school, but don't be surprised if it takes your student awhile to catch on. Oh - and some sort of system for review is pretty important when tackling lots of fact-heavy classes. I taught mine to use flashcards and a concertina file, but there are other systems that might be better. It is also handy to have some idea of how the brain learns - tips like reading the table of contents of your textbook so you have some sort of structure to put the information into as you learn it, and skimming a textbook chapter before reading it, and reading the questions first then reading the chapter. Of course, none of this helps at all if the student refuses to do it... Sigh.

 

Nan

 

Nan

Edited February 6, 2012 by Nan in Mass

[1Togo]

Thanks, Nan. The cc website is very helpful!