Children with no "pace"

[PeterPan]

I have one of these kids too. It is frustrating. She is slow in everything except her speech- which is unusually rapid. Her memory is fantastic. Half the time, the delay is because she found something to read somewhere, and lost track of time.

 

I've enjoyed reading all of the terms to refer to these poky kids, but the one below is my favorite. It cracked me up. :lol:

 

Hey Julianna, just for my trivia, did she get speech therapy or have any diagnoses? Anything remarkable about her speech development in the early years? See *sometimes* what happens is they don't have proper motor control to control the speech, so they talk really, really fast to mask it. I don't know causes beyond that, but it is just one of those curiosity points. I have a cousin who stutters, and they told him it's processing speed, that his brain can't keep up with his mouth. Go figure.

Edited February 5, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

OK, apologies, I was reading into your post then. :)

 

 

No problem. ;)

[Trilliums]

I do think a person can have slow processing speed and still be quick in some areas of their lives. DS takes Tae Kwon Do and has worked up to a very fast punching and kicking speed. I see this as just one of the very many fascinating aspects of our human biology. To physiologically describes a persons varying abilities does not have to be a pathology; it can be an investigation into the intricacies of how our bodies function.

 

Granted, *living to one's full potential* is over overstatement if taken literally. Maybe I can call it an idiomatic expression. :) If a child is suffering in some way or has actions that seem out of kilter, most parents will wonder if something (some condition or factor) is present that will prevent said children from achieving the goals most parents would have for their children. Sorry for such an awkward sentence. I am trying to not make a generalized statement implying all parents would do anything.

 

This reminds me of how in my son's Tae Kwon Do class, his instructor tells the kids to give 100% and DS says that if he gave 100% for the entire class, he would pass out from exhaustion. :)

 

In general, I do think we over diagnose conditions, but I do not think that means the entire premise of doing so should be taken as having no worth. Many kids do suffer from physiological conditions that interfere with their lives. In many cases, addressing those problems can improve their situation.

[PeterPan]

Trillium, I think you're onto something here. Michele and I have talked about this, the idea that your parents find a problem and so it becomes this limiter rather than an issue to be overcome.

 

I don't really know about the over-diagnosing. I mean, in theory IF the person is actually being tested (as opposed to using a behavioral survey), then it's normed against peers. The behavioral survey supposedly is, but I've filled it out several times now and know how much that can shift. But if the norms and samples are correct for the processing speed and sustained attention tests and stuff, I don't see how you could screw that up. But whatever. The horrible thing to me is that it IS occurring so much. I have theories on that. Our OT said physiologic stress during pregnancy can be a cause, and we lived under high tension power lines, which are KNOWN to create physiologic stress, low oxygen levels, etc. and which were in fact making me quite sick. I was so naive, I didn't know the difference between normal pregnancy feelings and the power lines. Needless to say, we moved when we figured out.

 

So I think there's actually part of it where the numbers are just plain increasing due to our environment, what we're eating, that sort of thing. :(

[Jennefer@SSA]

I may be somewhat hijacking this thread but I wanted to jump in and ask what resources any of you have found to be valuable in learning more about Executive Functioning and even more importantly how to best support kids whose EF skills are lacking.

 

When ds10 was younger I used to think that he would begin to outgrow some of his ADHD behaviors but the reality is that more often than not, our days are harder than they were when he was younger. As his workload and responsibilities have increased it has made more and more apparent what was always there. He was just able to compensate better when he was younger because he is very bright.

 

Also about an Neurophych eval, do they give you not only results but ideas of how to help your child work on weak areas?

 

Thanks so much!

[rafiki]

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[rafiki]

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[PeterPan]

Jennefer, how did he get the aspie and adhd diagnoses in the first place? Do you have results from that psych eval? The way our np explained it, EF *does* continue to develop but it's always behind. Remember their peers are continuing to develop too. ;)

 

Yes, head over to the SN board and start reading. There are tons of books on this. Pick one on amazon and see what else it takes you to. No Mind Left Behind, Holloway, Freed, Smart but Scattered, etc. etc. Also look at the Linguisystems EF workbooks.

[brownie]

One concern with accommodations like extra time that I have (and haven't seen anyone else mention) is that the real world doesn't give extra time. I can see using it in combination with efforts to speed the kid up and ultimately weaning them off extra time. However, if a school's solution for ADHD is extra time, to me that is doing the child a disservice.

 

Of course at home, there really is no such thing as an accommodation. I have nobody to compare to so there is no "Extra time". It takes as long as it takes. I can just tell things are taking far too long :) Brownie

[PeterPan]

One concern with accommodations like extra time that I have (and haven't seen anyone else mention) is that the real world doesn't give extra time. I can see using it in combination with efforts to speed the kid up and ultimately weaning them off extra time. However, if a school's solution for ADHD is extra time, to me that is doing the child a disservice.

 

Of course at home, there really is no such thing as an accommodation. I have nobody to compare to so there is no "Extra time". It takes as long as it takes. I can just tell things are taking far too long :) Brownie

 

Was that an accommodation your psych specified in the report, or was it just something you read somewhere and concluded? Our np said she qualifies for extra time on standardized testing, a minimal distraction testing environment, etc., and these are accommodations that can be requested for college entrance exams and all through college. I remember taking a lot of classes my freshman year in big halls with hundreds of kids. I don't know how that would work out or if she'll need it, but I'm glad to know that option is there *if* she needs it. College is WAY too expensive to screw up because you didn't get accommodations.

 

Work is totally different. I get your point that at some point they're just not hirable if they can't do what needs to be done. But that's a bridge a long way down the road. I'm not gearing her toward work anyway (just to be blunt). We'll send her to college and let her get a degree in something that interests her. I've told her I don't care what the degree is, as long as by the time she's done she has a useful SKILL. It can be cake decorating or photography or something not even related to her major, but she needs to have a skill. I think that mix means they're hirable and able to do something worthwhile for someone. There's a certain amount of wisdom necessary in how you steer your kids to find that mix.

 

So on the accommodations thing, well I wouldn't knock it too soon. You want the paper trail of evals saying he needs it so that WHEN you need it (because problems don't just go away) it will be there. At home, what it meant for us was really practical stuff, like making a huge effort to remove my extremely bouncy, noisy, active toddler from her presence. I had foolish hopes that somehow a slight amount of noise from him would actually be good and stretch her. All it did was drive her crazy. If you want therapy stuff that will actually change them, look at the Linguisystems stuff. That's the only thing people seem to be doing that actually CHANGES anything. Well that's not true, PACE (Learning RX) can move EF, working memory, etc. Vision therapy also improved her EF dramatically. Hate to think where it was before, mercy. We actually had our np eval *after* VT. The change in her EF skills was dramatic, so her score must have been pitiful before.

 

Another accommodation or sincere advice our np gave us was basically not to wear her out. He told us to keep her lesson times and work sessions the length that fit her EF equivalent age but have the material be age and IQ appropriate. That's a bit of a challenge, but he pointed out that it's the only way to make sure she's not so worn out that she can't do the OTHER things she likes to do (art, sewing, etc.). There are things, like latin, that I've finally given up on. I now know WHY it was so hard for her, and to push it is to aggravate a problem. She'll live just fine without latin. We did 3 years of it, and the reality was when she got to really doing the grammar, not just memorizing, it wore out her ability to process. Steam would come out her ears, and she would just be worn out. There's no need for that. And in a sense that was the reality check, that doing some "classical" or WTM education straight (or VP, which I use a lot of, etc.) isn't going to work for her.

 

Another accommodation I thought was reasonable? He said be her attention (and hence retention) is NILL when she's not interested or connected to the material, we should bend over backward to get that, even if it means being even more non-traditional than most non-traditionals or going WAY out of the box. Basically, he said to take things as hands-on, out of the box, and contextualized as possible. He felt it wasn't necessary to brow-beat her into being a traditional student because she will be FINE (his words) when she's in stuff and college and wants to be there and enjoys it. Guess that was also in the context of her reading scores, etc., which are typically off the charts. But truly, that's an accommodation I was very scared to make for a long time. I felt like I had to shove, like the ugly sisters on Cinderella, till she would fit the textbook, high school shoe.

 

The thing that has made me most comfortable in making these changes is to read posts and talk with people ahead of me in the game who HAVE gone out of the box and gotten good results. Look up posts by Nan in Mass, JennW in SoCal, KarenAnne, etc. These are people with kids older than ours. The first two have sent kids to college. When you read posts like that, it balances out your fears and makes you realize that you *can* focus on the necessary skills but not browbeat them and still get them to where they need to be. Nan in Mass has some very clear posts where she elaborates on the SKILLS you have to have and how she works on them with a very non-traditional curriculum. She also lists a lot of good books in her posts btw.

Edited February 6, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[rafiki]

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[Heathermomster]

I do think a person can have slow processing speed and still be quick in some areas of their lives.

 

My 12 you has a 55pt difference between his processing speed and verbal comprehension scores. My child is quick witted and you'd never suspect any learning issues. He has maths/reading/hw'ing disorders and is about as normal as a kid can be.

 

He struggles mostly with grammar, math, about turning in homework. He's a subject matter expert on things that he loves, and slow as molasses with math homework.

 

In many cases, addressing those problems can improve their situation.

Goodness, I can't agree with you more. I think about DS and his education, from a long term and strategic perspective. How do I get him to where he needs to be in 5-6 years. Which colleges will work best? It's very sad when you meet adults with LDs, and their LDs were not properly dealt with; of course, there are others with LDs who go on to lead happy and productive lives.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Heathermomster

[brownie]

Any idea what the difference is between people who have mild LD's and succeed mostly on their own and those who struggle through life? I suspect my test results would have very similar outputs to my oldest son's - however I was super successful in school and at work...I overcame all my challenges with effort and desire.

 

My 9 year old has a very similar personality to a close buddy with Asp...anxiety, sensitive, shies away from new things, cried A LOT in the preschool years...but when it comes down to it, my ds strikes me as the kind of kid that will end up very well adjusted and content, but his buddy struggles with everyday things. (now I realize my son's likely SID is different from Asp, but there doesn't seem to be much tipping the scales, KWIM?)

 

I don't know...just wondering if there's a common thread between what allows those who may have even gone undiagnosed to "meet their potential". I know girls have a better track record of compensating, but why?

 

Brownie

[Heathermomster]

Any idea what the difference is between people who have mild LD's and succeed mostly on their own and those who struggle through life? I suspect my test results would have very similar outputs to my oldest son's - however I was super successful in school and at work...I overcame all my challenges with effort and desire.

 

 

 

I recently read the book The Dyslexic Advantage, and the authors looked at the mind strengths of individuals with dyslexia. The authors interviewed successful people who have taken unusual paths to achieve their success (John Irving, Sir Richard Branson, Anne Rice, Charles Schwab, and lesser known people). I'm paraphrasing here. Each of these individuals seems to have had one person who believed in their abilities. Some woke up and made the decision to improve their condition by addressing their reading or writing weaknesses head on after years of embarrassment. Persistence and a diligent attitude seems to have played a key role. One guy's parents were flexible. All of these folks experienced difficulties in school. Some dropped out. Others took longer time to finish school and college. At first glance, none of their formative years showed promise.

 

The back portion of the book discusses pre-skills for college. I found the book insightful because the authors call upon known research and tie that research with specific behaviors. These weaknesses are biological in nature, and it helps to be reminded of that from time to time.

 

Whatever the learning issue, I think the bottom line here is that we need to remain positive (that can be tough), deal to our kids strengths, manage expectations, hold our children accountable (this is tough), and specifically teach them to manage their learning differences in a systematic fashion (good grief!! this is really tough). A support group for mothers of LDs might help. Prayer helps too.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Heathermomster
I wasn't homeschooled.

[PeterPan]

Brownie, when you're talking neurological stuff, the mixes and what is affected to what degree varies. Even with aspies, no two are alike. And, I mean this kindly, but I'm not sure the parent with a problem themselves is in the best position to judge the degree of the problem in their kids. Parents are NOTORIOUS for blowing off problems when they themselves have it. How often does someone come on the SN board and say "My dh doesn't think my ds or dd needs an eval. He sucked up and overcame it and they will too." This happens over and over. People with any of these mix of problems also can mix social cues, meaning they're *missing* the extent of how it's affecting the dc. (btdt)

 

But no matter what, the *mix* of problems varies, because it's the brain and development. I won't even go into personal stories. I'm just saying you can't assume because the parent was able to overcome theirs, the dc will be the same. Our access to evaluation has improved. There is NO REASON a dc with a problem in any of the categories we've been talking about should go into adulthood WONDERING what his problem is or why he struggles with certain things. A dc should have the chance to KNOW, so he can have honest information about what his issues are and how to overcome them. No parent can assume that because they overcame their mix, that the dc will his.

[PeterPan]

(now I realize my son's likely SID is different from Asp, but there doesn't seem to be much tipping the scales, KWIM?)

 

Actually, what you need to read is the book by Temple Grandin on the overlap between ADHD and Autism.

[Tiramisu]

To be perfectly honest, I did have some issues with estimating time when I was younger. Now looking back, it was totally silly :confused:, but it was as though I had fixed in my mind the idea that things take that time which is actual their *optimal* time.

 

This probably makes little sense, but an example: if I need to get from point A to point B, and that involved getting out of my place, walking a certain distance, catching a train, traveling with train, change trains, and walking another distance, I always assumed the *optimal* time - that version of time in which nothing goes "off" (i.e. you do not forget keys, it is not raining, the traffic is not crazy, the train arrives exactly when you come, the next one arrives just suited for you too, etc.). It was as though I could abstract and estimate the optimal time in my mind, but had some issues adapting to the "chaotic" nature of how things actually happen in practice, when things are rarely smooth. Sort of, if I miraculously managed to get somewhere in 30 minutes, I considered that normal, rather than adding 10 more minutes for all the other factors that are likely to interfere.

 

As regards being slow in dressing, with time I started upping time for that reason, but instead of getting more time this way, I adapted to that extra time and just took more. So, at one point it did not matter if I got up 15 minutes before I left or an hour before I left, I employed all that time doing the exactly same tasks. One of the things I did in getting rid of that habit and speeding myself up was cutting some time for myself, because I figured I was just wasting it anyway and was often more prompt with the adrenaline kicking "you have only 15 mintues!". Then I would overwhelm myself and be late AGAIN :lol:, but with time I really managed to fine tune to my needs and figure out where it is bad for me to allot extra time, and where I must do it. It involved a lot of overestimating and underestimating myself, though. But miraculously, for things that mattered, I was always on time - it was only getting into shape for other things that troubled me.

 

At my most extreme I also had thinking interfering with doing. Sometimes I was getting dressed literally for hours as I was thinking or talking something through in my head. So it was like, I had a skirt on, and then sat down for twenty minutes to finish that though. Then I put one sock. Another ten minutes pause. Then another sock. Then freezing in time for another ten minutes. Then getting distracted. Then back to that thought. Then a momentary panic of "darn, I should really get going already!" Then putting on a shirt. It pretty much looked like that.

 

But I still hold that in my case, and many other cases that I knew of, it was not an inability. It was a habit, but a habit made out of many little choices rather than out of coercion on any level.

 

There's a really important point to be gleaned here. When you are dealing with a true issue, it will usually get worse, not better over time. I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but for at least a while, it's a fact. When other kids grow, you see them mature over the years in the way that Ester Maria points out. She realized things about herself and she corrected them. With SN kids, you don't see the same growth. They are outpaced by their normal peers. Suddenly, things can seem really bad, worse than ever for that reason. They should be able to do certain things, in a certain way, in a certain time frame, but they don't, they can't--not yet at least. The bright slow processors may reach a point that their higher order thinking skills can compensate for some of their weaknesses, but that could be very slow in coming. What Ester Maria is describing in her account is very normal development, not the development of someone with a processing speed problem.

 

Ester Maria mentions somewhere, too, that she didn't care. I have a dd with a relatively low processing score compared to her reasoning scores, who does care, who gets her work done, does things on time. But the stress and frustration of trying to manage this can be overwhelming to her. When I see my dd's struggle and pain, it's heartbreaking. I find the suggestion that someone with a low processing doesn't care very distressing. I'm sorry, but that's how I feel.

 

Elizabeth, even though you did not reference me specifically here, please consider a possibility it is not like at least some of us who are "on the other side" of discussions like this are telling our primary reactions and our primary assumptions - which are based on the limited amount of information we can learn about somebody's case online anyway - on the grounds of... I don't know, a 19th century pseudo-scientific education, without any regard whatsoever and any thought whatsoever given to other possibilities.

 

We cannot know what is OP's case, we have no idea who OP is, we have never met her son, we have no insight into their medical history and daily life practicalities, we cannot know if it is something a little off or something REALLY OFF. We can only speculate and offer some *possible* answers. It is up to OP's discretion and intelligence to sort things out, see what might and what might not be applicable, and entertain the options she is presented.

You and Michele present *one* legitimate possibility, that it is a neurological thing.

I present *another one*, equally possible and equally legitimate - based on my own exprerience no less (!) - option for her to consider, that it is mostly a character thing.

 

There are problems which can be boiled down to character issues or habits, something "workable with".

There are those which cannot.

There is even a possibility of those two both presenting themselves pretty much equally on the outside, making it hard to distinguish sometimes what is the case.

 

We may come with different baggage, because while I have experienced over and over again the cases in which it is fundamentally a choice and it is "workable with", and that is my immediate family reality, you might have experienced the opposite cases, in which no matter what you do, you cannot "fix" it, and that is your immediate reality (speaking hypothetically here, as I have no idea what goes on in your home).

The bottomline is that one baggage is not less *or more* important and valuable to contribute to a thread like this, as a *potential idea*, than the other one. We have no idea what is the case here. We are merely offering options. And the options we choose to present may *or may not* have anything to do with our ignorance.

 

Actually, we do know something important about the OP's situation. She shared her son's processing scores. Those tests are highly structured and leave very little room for error. We also know he's getting into full-swing with the hormones right now, which also has an impact. It doesn't mean the OP wants to sit back and let these things take their course, come what may. I believe she wants to do her best for her ds, including appropriate discipline, and hopefully her ds will want to do his best, too. But he does have some limitations.

 

When I visit the SN board, I never get the feeling that the moms there have given up and attribute every dc's weakness to a disability they have no control over and let it go. They are investigating every option, making every sacrifice to develop the potential of their dc despite the disability. And they expect and train their dc in reasonable behavior, too, just like all the other good moms on these forums.

[Ester Maria]

Ester Maria mentions somewhere, too, that she didn't care. I have a dd with a relatively low processing score compared to her reasoning scores, who does care, who gets her work done, does things on time. But the stress and frustration of trying to manage this can be overwhelming to her. When I see my dd's struggle and pain, it's heartbreaking. I find the suggestion that someone with a low processing doesn't care very distressing. I'm sorry, but that's how I feel.

I am sorry, I do not understand this. I am not "suggesting" anything - I am offering a logical possibility. Frustration, stress AND not caring on some level can perfectly coexist in cases like this, and then it becomes difficult to disentagle the situation and pinpoint what causes what.

 

My problem is (in general, not only in this thread) with acknowledging as an issue something that the subject has proven themselves capable of doing. Like I said earlier, you cannot beat that claim on a logical level: people cannot do things they are not capable of doing. They can do only things they can do. Tautology, really.

When I see instances of "selective incapability", I get suspicious, because I know from my own experience and my kids' experience what that may look like. If I am capable of being somewhere on time, and I have proven that in many instances in which it matters to me, then I am always capable of being on time, just not exercising that capacity. Elizabeth would probably consider the cases in which people like that do manage to be overcompensation, but I wrestle with that concept as such. Over- compared to what? You cannot go higher than what you can do, it is a logical impossibility.

 

I see two options, really.

Either one can train oneself to exercise the capacity they have in most or all cases. (I partially did this.)

Or one can arrange their life, where possible, to accomodate their issues, by allowing more time to themselves. (I partially did this too.)

 

If I am still later after both of this - and I am ;) - it is a character issue. I am okay with having this particular character issue. It is something I could control, but I choose not to. "Could, but choose not to" in my mind directly translates as: "does not care enough to", because if it mattered to me that much, and I had a capacity of doing it, I would be doing it. So obviously it does not matter to me that much and I have some other priorities in life. That is fine, but I like to call things their real names: it is not incapability, it is not delusion about how much time I need, it is simply not coordinating things. And that *can* be frustrating and stressful *at the same time* while I obviously do not care enough not to do it - there is no dichomoty there for me. The emotional response can be a phlegmatic state, but it can also be stress.

 

Your DD, and many other cases, may be genuinely different cases, but this is how I parse things to myself in my mind in a way that makes sense to me. If there are different cases, they are so in ways that I cannot fully comprehend. No other explanation makes sense to me, only parsing things this way. I do not understand what "overcompensating" means here, because I view it as a logical impossibility since I do not think that one can do things one cannot do. To me it looks simply like exercising one capacity in different moments to different extents, and provided there is no delusion about time involved and one is aware of that and has those two options, I cannot see how it is not a choice. That choice can still be an emotionally distressing one. But it is a choice. I am not coerced into being late, I know very well that I must take additional time for myself in some cases, and if I am still late after that, I simply do not know how to relate to that other than consider it a character problem. Obviously, in everyday language I will also talk about how I "cannot" do it or how it overwhelms me, etc., but I still consider it something entirely under my control.

 

If it makes you feel better, I am not selective in applying this way of thinking. I apply it to everyone, included myself, and I am as harsh with myself privately as one can possibly be, because I consider many things about myself character flaws, whereas other people might be more gentle and understanding. That is distressing too for me, but I cannot adhere to explanations which do not make fundamental sense to me.

When I visit the SN board, I never get the feeling that the moms there have given up and attribute every dc's weakness to a disability they have no control over and let it go. They are investigating every option, making every sacrifice to develop the potential of their dc despite the disability. And they expect and train their dc in reasonable behavior, too, just like all the other good moms on these forums.

I do not doubt that. :) I rarely venture to visit it because people who post there typically have issues I have zero close experience with, but my a priori stance is that all mothers here are well-meaning and trying to do what is the best for their children.

 

So am I. :)

[LaughingCat]

My problem is (in general, not only in this thread) with acknowledging as an issue something that the subject has proven themselves capable of doing. Like I said earlier, you cannot beat that claim on a logical level: people cannot do things they are not capable of doing. They can do only things they can do. Tautology, really.

When I see instances of "selective incapability", I get suspicious, because I know from my own experience and my kids' experience what that may look like. If I am capable of being somewhere on time, and I have proven that in many instances in which it matters to me, then I am always capable of being on time, just not exercising that capacity.

But studies have shown that when one has to use effort or willpower to control oneself, that later decision making or effort is affected adversely - i.e. the willpower gets "used up". So the capacity to do something in one instance does not prove you can do it any time you want to, but only if is either easy for you or you have plenty of willpower available.

 

Therefore even when a person can often succeed at a task, that same person can still fail in a specific instance through using up all of their willpower on other previous (probably unrelated) tasks rather than through choice, lack of prioritization and/or lack of character.

[Ester Maria]

But studies have shown that when one has to use effort or willpower to control oneself, that later decision making or effort is affected adversely - i.e. the willpower gets "used up". So the capacity to do something in one instance does not prove you can do it any time you want to, but only if is either easy for you or you have plenty of willpower available.

 

Therefore even when a person can often succeed at a task, that same person can still fail in a specific instance through using up all of their willpower on other previous (probably unrelated) tasks rather than through choice, lack of prioritization and/or lack of character.

But it may be a simple stamina issue, no? I could not run a marathon right now. I could probably not even run a few hundred meters well right now. But, I start with what I can and little by little I expand my comfort zone. Same as with any other issues that matters to you and you prove capable of doing - you keep overcoming things. So you fail, and you keep trying and you keep knowing somewhere deep down that you can do it because you have proven capable of doing it. It is a process, it does not happen overnight. But for many people, little by little, issues they have can be reasonably overcome by consistent application, in spite of the frustration and failures it will necessarily involve.

[brownie]

LLolly are you specifically referring to kids with ADHD and other executive function issue using up their will power? or were these studies about the population in general? Brownie

[LaughingCat]

Brownie -

The studies were on the general population - I've seen various references to them in different books I've read. Here's a link to a blog I read recently referencing similar studies :

Here’s where the results get weird. The students with seven digits to remember were nearly twice as likely to choose the cake as students given two digits. The reason, according to Shiv, is that all those extra numbers took up valuable space in the brain — they were a “cognitive load†— making it that much harder to resist a decadent dessert. In other words, willpower is so weak, and the conscious mind is so overtaxed, that all it takes is five extra bits of information before it becomes impossible for the brain to resist a piece of cake.

 

Ester Maria -

I don't see how that changes anything because stamina is not an ever growing thing - it's variable. Just because you can run a marathon today doesn't mean you can run one tomorrow.

[gracyomalley]

Very interesting thread, with interesting tangents!

 

This may not be helpful at all, but I'll chime in because I've been there...and still am sometimes!

 

DS 11 is dyslexic with very slow processing speed. I'm not talking about 25%, I'm talking about 7%...both in verbal tasks, and in the "put the peg in the hole" type stuff. However, he tests in the top 5% on academic tests (except spelling!) He is quite a slow poke in all things...NOW, he CAN take a 5 minute shower, if he has an absolute deadline, and he can move fast when its necessary,(as in mom is driving out of the driveway, you had better get your shoes on necessary), but without that, everything is SLOW...even speech, where I have had to learn to WAIT for him to respond...which is hard as I am a lickety split processor.

 

DS will take 5 extra seconds to start the gym drills the team does, 5 extra seconds to get ready to tune his violin, 5 extra seconds to do EVERYTHING...but 50 extra minutes to do things he doesn't want to do... The 50 minutes to start writing a paragraph is distraction and a personal discipline issue...the 5 seconds longer pause before every action even when he is engaged, interested, and motivated is biological. And he's not ADD, he can concentrate literally for hours on a violin concerto, or reading, or a science lesson...of course, in those hours he accomplishes less than a child with similar intellect but faster processing speed...and thus he HAS TO work longer on some things. Medication would make him faster...as a pediatrician I know that, but that does not a diagnosis make!

 

He is insightful, he has always made intuitive connections above his age level, he has the ability to patiently finish things he starts (rebuilding 1000 piece legos without the directions, fixing up junk violins on his own, etc...), and he doesn't get frustrated with taking a long time to complete his work unless its interfering with his fun stuff (as in you can't go to gym practice until your math is done,,,,etc). He doesn't get careless after working a certain time period, like his sister, who can finish faster, but we have to pace her because she ends up doing shotty work if she does too much too quick. He's generally patient with his own disability as well, except he is still trying to "figure out " how to spell....which, with English, is basically impossible...His plodding drives me crazy, and I have had to alter my "time line" for his academics...giving him an extra year before high school so that he can do advanced academics and a time consuming sport and be an advanced violinist, all things that feed him, but take him oodles of time....

 

So, moral of the story is - full neuropsych testing was VERY helpful for me with him...I knew he was dyslexic, and knew he had a slow pace, but I never would have realized how pervasive it was, or how it effects his strengths. It also helped me know what could be "remediated" (his reading), what was a discipline issue (as in self-discipline for him....making himself write a paragraph when he couldn't spell more than 10% of the words he wanted to use...etc...he's a very "good kid") and what was a disability he would have to learn to accomodate.

 

Note that I don't say "get accomodations"....although he does get untimed testing right now. In the end, he will have to figure out how to live in this world....and what we do is set the bar high...but let him get there when he gets there. (rather than the "do less in the same time as others approach"). He'll have to find a career where completeness and accuracy are more valued than speed, and know that he'll need timers, reminders, etc to stay on "schedule" with day to day life...he'll need the confidence that he CAN do it, and the self-discipline to make it happen.

 

With testing and time it has been easy to see what is truely, deeply him, and what can be "altered" with structure, practice and parental expectations. Much must come from within the child in these situations, but as some postors mentionned, many adults with LDs, or different learning styles, do suceed because someone believes in them, and they learn to "rise above" (or even "through") their disability. The on-going Nature versus Nurture debate...

Erin

[Ester Maria]

Ester Maria -

I don't see how that changes anything because stamina is not an ever growing thing - it's variable. Just because you can run a marathon today doesn't mean you can run one tomorrow.

If I have an intermittent capacity of doing something, I simply cannot accept that I do not have that capacity.

We are not talking big time frame oscillations (e.g. "I can do something at 20, but not at 40" kind of thing), but a capacity that fairly regularly manifests itself in situations in which things "matter" more, while those situations in which it does not manifests itself cannot be boiled down to anything obviously drastically different (to something like "I can do something at 8 AM, but cannot do it at 8 PM, because meanwhile I had not eaten nor drank and have undergone huge physical and emotional distress, so by 8 PM I am barely preventing myself from fainting, let alone focusing actively on something" kind of thing).

 

The only way I can describe it is lack of will to actually do it, even if there is vague volition present - and I am far from sure that that will cannot be trained and tamed, because I see people making drastic choices and changing their modus operandi about things all. the. time. It *must* be possible on some level, even if I fully accept that people differ here too and not everyone has an equal degree of self-control, so for some people it may be a lot harder than for others. But there we go back to my initial point: hard does not equal impossible. Doing hard things is hard, but very possible. Just like some people have to study more and some have to study less for the same exam, or some people have to practice more and some have to practice less - same thing here. Provided there is no genuine delusion about time involved, and one can arrange one's life to minimally accomodate this tendency, I simply do not see why it would not be possible to gradually train oneself to overcome much of this.

 

It seems to me that to claim that those intermittent moments are in NO way under the subject's control is a bit excessive. My synesthesia is like that: intermittent, and I cannot "predict" when those will happen, I cannot turn it off and turn it on by the power of free will alone. But with time, if I manage to "overcompensate" in moments that matter and still somehow change what I do based on my inner attitude about it, that fact itself contradicts the theory that I cannot willfully guide that tendency, because there is obvious control involved. That is at least how it looks to me. :confused:

[LaughingCat]

. But with time, if I manage to "overcompensate" in moments that matter and still somehow change what I do based on my inner attitude about it, that fact itself contradicts the theory that I cannot willfully guide that tendency, because there is obvious control involved. That is at least how it looks to me. :confused:

But "Willfully guide that tendency" is not the same as "I am always capable of being on time, just not exercising that capacity."

 

Regarding control:

I can control things like my attitude, my drive to improve, my practice.

 

I can control how I prioritize something - but I can not prioritize everything. And the more effort a priority item takes the less other things can be a priority.

 

I can control the effort I put into looking for ways to improve but I can not control my ability to find, discover or create what I need to know/do to actually improve. And if you don't know how you did it ("some how") then "based on my inner attitude" is only a guess about why the change occurred -- correlation is not causation.

 

I can control SOME circumstances but I can not control ALL the circumstances that affect my ability to perform when needed. This is my previous point - everyday things that happen (remembering a long series of numbers) affect our ability to do other everyday things (successfully resist eating cake).

 

And I can not control what my max ability is. Human ability is a continuum, not an on/off switch - so you are going to have people for who some normal everyday task is hard every time they do it because it just happens to be at the max end of their ability. And a task being that hard is going to affect how much and how often you can do it. Even an elite marathoner can't run a marathon every day.

[Ester Maria]

I can control SOME circumstances but I can not control ALL the circumstances that affect my ability to perform when needed. This is my previous point - everyday things that happen (remembering a long series of numbers) affect our ability to do other everyday things (successfully resist eating cake).

I see what you mean.

 

This way of looking at it, though, is uncomfortably "deterministic" in my eyes, because if I look at it this way, I can say that in *every* situation one performed one's best at that time, because obviously all the factors were in such a correlation that the only possible product of them was that particular performance. And that pretty much takes away much of personal responsibility.

That is a legitimate way of looking at things, if you are not selective and apply it to all people and all circumstances.

 

Or am I misunderstanding you?

[Renee in NC]

I haven't had such a good laugh in ages. Since you HAVEN'T HAD a kid with these issues, it explains it though. There is no "professional help" for processing speed. There are some anecdotal ideas (video games, etc.) but nothing else. And the ability to be PROMPT for an isolated incident where the person overcompensates is NO indication of what they have the developmental maturity and executive function to do the rest of the time. Executive function (secretary skills, working memory, etc.) is in a part of the brain and the problems are developmental. You can nudge them slightly, and mercifully the child continues to grow and mature, if on his own timetable.

 

But to call the child phlegmatic and that way by personality, well that's a pretty outdated way of thinking of people with what we now realize are developmental differences. ;)

 

I do have a child like this (more than one) and in some ways it *is* a character issue.

 

Labels are not excuses. They are names for things that make doing certain things harder. I teach my kids that they are going to have to accomodate themselves in life *and* they are going to have to work 10x harder than others to get the same results. It's just the way it is.

[mommymilkies]

OhElizabeth, I want you to be my mom. :D

 

My ds is this way. He can be fast when he's running around like a loon (SID-proprioreceptive, etc. he went to OT for). But if he's needing to focus like with school work, helping, chores, getting out the door, or whatever, I think that molasses runs faster! This is forever frustrating to everyone else and I feel bad because I know he has fine motor issues and I'm sure he has EF and working memory issues. I'm sure our insurance doesn't cover any Neuropsychs and I can't afford an eval right now. Maybe someday I'll be able to get him in so that he has a paper trail for college. I know how important that is for testing and some college requirements.

[LaughingCat]

This way of looking at it, though, is uncomfortably "deterministic" in my eyes, because if I look at it this way, I can say that in *every* situation one performed one's best at that time, because obviously all the factors were in such a correlation that the only possible product of them was that particular performance. And that pretty much takes away much of personal responsibility.

 

You're being too black and white - I am not giving over personal responsibility, I am being realistic as to what personal responsibility entails: " grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference"

 

FWIW I don't think of it as an excuse either - if you do your best and fail you're still subject to any social penalties for your behavior - just like anyone else. The fact that society is malleable as far as what is acceptable and what is not is just part of how things work though which fortunately means its fine to advocate for change as well.

[Jugglin'5]

One of my five children has what a previous poster termed "Pokey McPokerpants" syndrome. That made me chuckle. :D

 

For all the problems and consternation this causes, particularly with her siblings, who tend to get exasperated with her, it also brings some benefits. She is the most thorough and methodical child that I have. I never worry about her slacking in her school work. It might take her 5 x longer than her sister, but by golly, it will be well done. She is extremely linear, orderly, and logical in her thinking. Her basketball coach once told her, "You always make good decisions - you just need to work on making them a little faster.":lol:

 

I remind myself of these things when I am tempted to roll my eyes when she is the last one to load up in the car - again. I have learned to give her several warnings throughout the day if she needs to be ready to go at a certain time. She has recognized that it takes her longer to get ready than other people and is doing much better at being ready on time.

[Capt_Uhura]

I've had a very, very, very difficult time w/ my 6th grade son. He got exponentially worse. I"ve been at my wits end. I learned today that he has Lyme's disease. That explains a lot of things. His slowness, mental fatigue etc. I hope the antibiotics will kick this and I will have my son back. He wasn't speedy before but I swear he has been worse than a snail the past 4-5months.

[brownie]

Oh my goodness Capt! I am so sorry. It is a good point...sometimes something else is going on esp if you notice a change! We had a year where ds had strep all the time and strep can lead to some bizarre behaviors. We had a friend for whom it triggered Tourette's.

 

Brownie

[Poke Salad Annie]

I've had a very, very, very difficult time w/ my 6th grade son. He got exponentially worse. I"ve been at my wits end. I learned today that he has Lyme's disease. That explains a lot of things. His slowness, mental fatigue etc. I hope the antibiotics will kick this and I will have my son back. He wasn't speedy before but I swear he has been worse than a snail the past 4-5months.

:grouphug:

 

Hope things are better soon.

[suzziesnowflake]

Ok-but if you live with pokey pants (I have 2) how do YOU deal with it. I am a type A personality. I drives me insane. At 2:00 I am fried. Do you just let them sit at the table and stare at their books (while you enjoy a cup of joe)? My boys would make school last all day then whine like crazy until my nerves snap in the evenings. I can usually ignore them but there are some days..... Nobody told me this part of hsing before I signed on;)

[PeterPan]

Ok-but if you live with pokey pants (I have 2) how do YOU deal with it. I am a type A personality. I drives me insane. At 2:00 I am fried. Do you just let them sit at the table and stare at their books (while you enjoy a cup of joe)? My boys would make school last all day then whine like crazy until my nerves snap in the evenings. I can usually ignore them but there are some days..... Nobody told me this part of hsing before I signed on;)

 

I know, at this stage it's NOT the romantic experience people talk about. No romance. I'm trying to embrace the pace, if that makes sense, and just go with it. I've heard in high school they bloom. My dd is starting to, definitely. Not faster, but they're doing things *they* want to do, so it is a little more pro-active on their part. The sad part is, even when they TRY to work harder or faster it's still inefficient. So then you have to burst in and burst their bubble a little. So we work on the idea of LETTING someone help you get set up and letting someone help you with the executive side of things so you'll be more efficient. She's FINALLY willing to talk through her writing structure with me, etc.

 

PS. I've given up on homeschooling being a fulfilling experience. I'm taking classes online for myself and busying myself intellectually that way. Gotta have somewhere to put that energy. I'm just starting my third photography class since Christmas and have one more scheduled for after that. I figure I'll just keep going. That energy needed an outlet, and dd wasn't going to be it.