Twelve Year Old Boys and Math...

[LisaKinVA]

So... I have this boy child who likes to skate through life. We frequently butt heads (so-to-speak), because I'm not the kind of person willing to let him just "skate through." I have warned, cajoled, encouraged, explained, questioned our way through the text. He can explain what needs to be done, and today he bombs the chapter test. I mean BOMBS.

 

We have hit a road-block in math. HUGE. Like, so big I feel like backing way, way up (which he will hate...) I'm looking at either getting Teaching Textbooks Algebra 1 (because it will review a LOT of concepts ds is apparently struggling with) OR, getting AoPS Pre-Algebra.

 

My issue is this is NOT a child who likes "discovering" how to do something. He does not like too much of a challenge and will absolutely shut down. He wants to be TOLD how and why, then apply. He has "used" K12 Pre-Algebra A and B, and Life of Fred Pre-Algebra 1 & 2. And then, there is the fact he's 12, and can't remember to put the burrito that he didn't finish away before going to bed (among other things) :tongue_smilie:

 

I am seriously :banghead: :crying: and really just wish I could :smash: this into his brain and move on. Meanwhile, my 8yo is happily taking the TT Pre-Algebra placement test and thinks it's FUN. ;)

[Karen in CO]

Have you heard the term "brain fog"? I'm not making excuses, and I don't know your son, but there is a reason that ps stretches a little bit of math out for a lot of years of middle school.

 

Otherwise. Exercise helps. Changing direction sometimes helps. Redoing work and not accepting failure helps. Understanding that hormones interfere with school helps. A big cup of coffee with a shot of chocolate in it (for you) helps you to take a moment before you engage in meaningless arguments with a pre-teen son over brain chemistry helps. Comparing to siblings doesn't help.

 

Good luck.

[Julie Smith]

My boy is only 7 1/2. He had a great day at math doing times tables. But he BOMBED everything else.

 

His spelling test was easy, look for the pattern and apply it. I pointed out the pattern. I even gave him extra words related to the pattern and I might have been talking gibberish for all he understood.

 

It seems sometimes he can only do one subject at a time. I mean today / right now it's math. Asking his to spell "pin" gets me confused looks. But tomorrow or next week he might get 3X2 wrong but be able to spell "underpinnings"

 

I use to want to move forward a little every day in all subjects. But it seems like its giant leap forward in one, total brain fog in all others.

 

Any chance your 12 year old is making leaps forward in a different subject?

[dereksurfs]

So... I have this boy child who likes to skate through life. We frequently butt heads (so-to-speak), because I'm not the kind of person willing to let him just "skate through." I have warned, cajoled, encouraged, explained, questioned our way through the text. He can explain what needs to be done, and today he bombs the chapter test. I mean BOMBS.

 

We have hit a road-block in math. HUGE. Like, so big I feel like backing way, way up (which he will hate...) I'm looking at either getting Teaching Textbooks Algebra 1 (because it will review a LOT of concepts ds is apparently struggling with) OR, getting AoPS Pre-Algebra.

...

 

It looks like you are using Foerster currently based on your signature. It doesn't sound like AoPS Pre-A would be a good fit especially at this time. Consider TT, MUS, Jacobs Algebra, Kinetic Books. It would probably be good to let *him* test drive a few of these options to see which he prefers. We have friends who did this with their bright dd and after reviewing several different programs she chose Saxon Algebra of all things. Now she is doing fine with it. Every child is different in the way they learn as we all discover. Whether in a fog or not, there is most likely a curriculum which will be more well suited for him at this time.

Edited January 31, 2012 by dereksurfs

[LisaKinVA]

Have you heard the term "brain fog"? ..... Comparing to siblings doesn't help.

 

Good luck.

 

Yes... brain fog...heard about it, just didn't think he'd "lose" a full 2.5 years of math work.

 

FWIW, I'm not comparing them to each other... I frequently tell A, that what B is doing is not "easy" for B, and it only seems "easy" to A, because A did that 2 years ago (or whatever). I was commenting (here) on the attitude of my 8yo who is willing to tackle things he might not know how to do to see if he can figure them out. My 12yo is now saying he can't do decimals... can't do fractions... can't convert .50 to a percent... it's all too haaarrrd. And I'm trying to figure out where to go, because forward just isn't happening. I just dug out Basic Math (Chalk Dust) and LoF decimals & percents...he needs serious work on integers, and I'd rather not buy a whole different pre-algebra program for him (I'm getting his sister AoPS in 2 years... so getting THAT would just mean purchasing something a little early, not something completely different KWIM?)

 

I need something... maybe some vodka with my chocolate.

[LisaKinVA]

It looks like you are using Foerster currently based on your signature. It doesn't sound like AoPS Pre-A would be a good fit especially at this time. Consider TT, MUS, Jacobs Algebra, Kinetic Books. It would probably be good to let *him* test drive a few of these options to see which he prefers. We have friends who did that with their bright dd and after reviewing several different programs she chose Saxon Algebra of all things. Now she is doing fine with it. Every child is different in the way they learn as we all discover. Whether in a fog or not, there is most likely a curriculum which will be more well suited for him at this time.

 

See, that's just it... he chose Foerster's. He liked it best! I have LoF and AoPS here, but thought if we used them it would be after Foerster's. He passed the placement test for TT Algebra 1. He bombed the post-test for AoPS pre-Algebra. And, I cannot allow this child to use Kinetic Textbooks, because that requires internet access... give this kid an inch on the internet :tongue_smilie: (we're still trying to get everything set up in the new house, and for some reason our internet blocking/permitting is not working).

 

He's already been through 3 pre-Algebra programs. I thought maybe AoPS would at least stretch him a bit. TT will offer a lot of review, I'm certain. I have to buy both for my dd, eventually. He has not been a math slouch...so I'm in completely new territory. I am now dreading end of year testing, and getting ready to pull out LoF decimals/percents and fractions and making him work through those (again) while we wait on whatever else I buy.

[dereksurfs]

Yes... brain fog...heard about it, just didn't think he'd "lose" a full 2.5 years of math work.

 

FWIW, I'm not comparing them to each other... I frequently tell A, that what B is doing is not "easy" for B, and it only seems "easy" to A, because A did that 2 years ago (or whatever). I was commenting (here) on the attitude of my 8yo who is willing to tackle things he might not know how to do to see if he can figure them out. My 12yo is now saying he can't do decimals... can't do fractions... can't convert .50 to a percent... it's all too haaarrrd. And I'm trying to figure out where to go, because forward just isn't happening. I just dug out Basic Math (Chalk Dust) and LoF decimals & percents...he needs serious work on integers, and I'd rather not buy a whole different pre-algebra program for him (I'm getting his sister AoPS in 2 years... so getting THAT would just mean purchasing something a little early, not something completely different KWIM?)

 

I need something... maybe some vodka with my chocolate.

 

He sounds very discouraged and sick of math at this time unfortunately, overwelmed. So the real question is how to build up his self-confidence and get him engaged again, enjoying math. Even if you don't compare him to his sibblings there is a very good chance he does and feels stupid. If he hates doing math right now that's what needs to get turned around. So yes, going forward isn't a good option, especially with AoPS. He needs his confidence built back up again. Maybe BCM would be a good place to review and solidfy things. You did mention TT, maybe give it a trial run while working on math facts with BCM or LOF.

Edited January 31, 2012 by dereksurfs

[wapiti]

See, that's just it... he chose Foerster's. He liked it best! I have LoF and AoPS here, but thought if we used them it would be after Foerster's. He passed the placement test for TT Algebra 1. He bombed the post-test for AoPS pre-Algebra. And, I cannot allow this child to use Kinetic Textbooks, because that requires internet access... give this kid an inch on the internet :tongue_smilie: (we're still trying to get everything set up in the new house, and for some reason our internet blocking/permitting is not working).

 

He's already been through 3 pre-Algebra programs. I thought maybe AoPS would at least stretch him a bit. TT will offer a lot of review, I'm certain. I have to buy both for my dd, eventually. He has not been a math slouch...so I'm in completely new territory. I am now dreading end of year testing, and getting ready to pull out LoF decimals/percents and fractions and making him work through those (again) while we wait on whatever else I buy.

 

So, could it be that he wasn't sufficiently ready, prealgebra-wise, for Foerster Alg 1? I'm not sure what the "right" answer would be about AoPS Prealgebra - certainly, on the face of your description, it would not be my choice (unless he knows the math but just needs difficult exercises to make him think; i.e., using it for the exercises rather than the teaching). On the other hand, perhaps he knows enough prealgebra already that it wouldn't be overly stretching him to work through the lesson problems that teach the lesson via discovery. I guess my bottom line would be that it doesn't sound like a fit, but one can never be certain - if you're buying the Prealgebra anyway for another kid, you could give it a try for a couple weeks and see. If he already knows the chapter topic, perhaps he could work through the chapter review exercises. I might be more inclined to use a regular text with direct instruction - there really is a whole lot in between AoPS on the one end of the spectrum and TT on the other - perhaps something like Dolciani, which offer direct instruction and has some challenging problem sets. From your description, I'd be reluctant to choose something that will allow him to skate through uncomplicated problem sets without a decent amount of deep thinking (especially where historically he's been mathematically-inclined), because that may only compound the brain-fog problem.

Edited January 31, 2012 by wapiti

[dereksurfs]

See, that's just it... he chose Foerster's. He liked it best! I have LoF and AoPS here, but thought if we used them it would be after Foerster's. He passed the placement test for TT Algebra 1. He bombed the post-test for AoPS pre-Algebra. And, I cannot allow this child to use Kinetic Textbooks, because that requires internet access... give this kid an inch on the internet :tongue_smilie: (we're still trying to get everything set up in the new house, and for some reason our internet blocking/permitting is not working).

 

He's already been through 3 pre-Algebra programs. I thought maybe AoPS would at least stretch him a bit. TT will offer a lot of review, I'm certain. I have to buy both for my dd, eventually. He has not been a math slouch...so I'm in completely new territory. I am now dreading end of year testing, and getting ready to pull out LoF decimals/percents and fractions and making him work through those (again) while we wait on whatever else I buy.

 

Its interesting that he chose Foerster. But now he has hit a wall. So you have to take him somehow thru it, over it, etc... with something else, maybe TT or maybe just a break from Foerster for a time.

 

We are also very strict with internet usage for our 3 kiddos. But with restricted privileges and supervision they do enjoy certain educational online content. We only allow this in open areas like a family room during certain times of the day. And we found K9 Filter which is free to block most garbage coming through. Since the filter resides on the computer itself the network is irrelevant. Our laptops could be in a hotel room or a strangers house and still block content.

Edited January 31, 2012 by dereksurfs

[elegantlion]

:grouphug: I would love to see a study on pre/teen boys and math on where their minds go. My son blurts out the most random things during math.

 

We are doing algebra after a horrible start last year (life mostly, not school) but I swear the algebra knowledge has been deleted. This week I have him working through Painless Algebra (on my shelf) while we contemplate our next move. I have Lial's on order.

 

I'm truly not sure where we are going next, but I can't buy any more texts. I think we are going to hit it from several angles, video and text, and pinpoint the issues. He's very right-brained and I think all this breaking math down into bits has him confused.

 

Painless is a very brief overview of topics. We're only on chapter 1, but I'm hoping it will highlight some trouble areas, then we can dig into the text (maybe a random drawing from a hat would be more productive at this point) and focus on those.

[LisaKinVA]

perhaps something like Dolciani, which offer direct instruction and has some challenging problem sets..

 

We did Dolciani already... that was the first Pre-A course, followed by a second and LoF 1 & 2. Both DS and I hated Dolciani. I even gave the book away...vowing never to use it again ;). I thought he was doing much better in Pre-Algebra B, but now I'm wondering if he figured out how to "cheat" that system (I certainly wouldn't put it past him). We followed both of those with LoF #1 & #2, which he seemed to do fine with (but again, a child with a propensity to cheat...well wondering if he didn't just cheat).

 

One other reason I went with Foerster... vs. Lials or some others is because it had a solution manual with all of the solutions. DS wanted the DVDs, so I got those, too. I like that I am not limited to answers (which half the time, when he's doing his problems, he'll get the answer right, but every single step WRONG... as in the answer that logically follows the steps as they were laid out should be wrong, but somehow he got the right one :tongue_smilie:)

 

I have 5 kiddos, so my attention is not always 100% on all of them all the time. I usually have to get Kid #1 started, move to Kids #2 and #3, and work with #4... while #5 plays (etc. rotate this way throughout the day). And, I have a thing about ripping apart books... just can't do it. As far as the computer goes, I have to go further than block content we don't like... we need something that only gives them permission to visit specific places, or it's over. My oldest cut his computer teeth hacking Norton at 5. Took my husband 12 hours to fix that. That was just the first instance...sneaky, creative, kids :tongue_smilie: Their computer is also password protected (only dh and I know the password), with a separate administrative setting (also password protected, that can't be altered from the kids' account).

 

I have pulled Foerster's from his shelf. I have put CD Basic Math and LoF decimals/percents and fractions ON his shelf. We'll be doing bridges through those to see how it goes. I just ordered AoPS, and he is reading the chapter 1 excerpt now. I also went ahead and ordered TT Algebra 1. I also went to the teacher store and purchased something called 24 Game Integers... essentially using this as a warm-up practice with integers every. day. there are 4 numbers (positive and negative), you have to add, subtract, multiply & divide your way to a positive 24, but you can only use each number once, and you have to use all four numbers. There are 3 levels of difficulty. It's a puzzle and math practice using the integers (he'll have to use pencil & paper and show his work.)

 

So, in the meantime, I've backed way up to what we were doing 3.5 years ago to see where holes are, and plug them... and then we'll work through AoPS Pre-A and TT Algebra 1 to see how it goes. I'll pull Foerster's off the shelf after he finishes AoPS Pre-Algebra, and TT Algebra 1. At that time, we'll also probably integrate AoPS Introductory Algebra or LoF Beginning Algebra for a bit more variety and stretching.

 

At least he hasn't forgotten what a noun is...

[Halcyon]

Just a suggestion, as I haven't yet hit 12, but perhaps he might enjoy doing some non-curriculum math, like Crossing the River with Dogs or Sideways Arithmetic? Just to get the love back?

[LisaKinVA]

Just a suggestion, as I haven't yet hit 12, but perhaps he might enjoy doing some non-curriculum math, like Crossing the River with Dogs or Sideways Arithmetic? Just to get the love back?

 

We have Descartes Cove which is a math/problem-solving adventure game...as well as the game Equate. This is less about losing his "love" of math, but finally getting to the point where he can't fake what he doesn't really know. He did admit to my dh tonight that he "figured out how to cheat" his way through K12 pre-Algebra B, basically, he did virtually no math last year. And I sit here thinking about how much I praised his efforts...:glare:

[Halcyon]

We have Descartes Cove which is a math/problem-solving adventure game...as well as the game Equate. This is less about losing his "love" of math, but finally getting to the point where he can't fake what he doesn't really know. He did admit to my dh tonight that he "figured out how to cheat" his way through K12 pre-Algebra B, basically, he did virtually no math last year. And I sit here thinking about how much I praised his efforts...:glare:

 

Oh, I'm sorry! Sounds like it's time to crack the whip :glare:

[Julie Smith]

We have Descartes Cove which is a math/problem-solving adventure game...as well as the game Equate. This is less about losing his "love" of math, but finally getting to the point where he can't fake what he doesn't really know. He did admit to my dh tonight that he "figured out how to cheat" his way through K12 pre-Algebra B, basically, he did virtually no math last year. And I sit here thinking about how much I praised his efforts...:glare:

 

For those who read this, and like me wanted a link to whatever Descartes Cove is:

 

http://cty.jhu.edu/ctyonline/cove/

[dereksurfs]

We have Descartes Cove which is a math/problem-solving adventure game...as well as the game Equate. This is less about losing his "love" of math, but finally getting to the point where he can't fake what he doesn't really know. He did admit to my dh tonight that he "figured out how to cheat" his way through K12 pre-Algebra B, basically, he did virtually no math last year. And I sit here thinking about how much I praised his efforts...:glare:

 

Youch, that must be very frustrating for parents who spend so much time selecting and then tailoring excellent curriculum for their child. I can't imagine what I would say if my son told he'd been cheating for a year and I never even knew about it.:confused: I guess it could always be worse like doing drugs or something. The story about hacking into the computer at 5 is pretty impressive. I'm a software engineer and its sounds like he has a lot of raw talent/skills. There is actually a career for ethical hackers which he may enjoy.

 

Do you think he does so because he dislikes math or simply because he can get away with it? Wow, thats pretty crazy. But then again when looking at cheating statistics in colleges I guess its not really that uncommon. Still if it was any of our kids I'd be really upset.

Edited February 1, 2012 by dereksurfs

[Abbeygurl4]

He's already been through 3 pre-Algebra programs. I thought maybe AoPS would at least stretch him a bit. TT will offer a lot of review, I'm certain. I have to buy both for my dd, eventually. He has not been a math slouch...so I'm in completely new territory. I am now dreading end of year testing, and getting ready to pull out LoF decimals/percents and fractions and making him work through those (again) while we wait on whatever else I buy.

 

When we hit a snag on a particular math concept I have my ds use the "Key To" series for that concept so he can get a firm grasp on it before he moves on in his regular math text. He still hates math, but it works.

 

Btw, your ds sounds EXACTLY like mine. If I lived closer I would definitely crack open the vodka and chocolate with you! :D

[PeterPan]

Oh man I'm just BELLY-LAUGHING here, because it's so true!!!

 

As far as the math, I have no clue. I've been looking at TT myself, for about the same reasons. ;) I'm also looking at the Comap math. If you want to look at something really DIFFERENT, there you go. I showed my dd the chapter on the moose population of NY, hoping she'd identify it, and well she was so flabbergasted she didn't know WHAT to think, lol. She couldn't figure out if it WAS math and then how she would DO it if it was. Maybe that's a good sign? :)

 

http://www.comap.com/mmow/PDF/CH_5_L1.pdf Here's a link to the moose chapter, just for the utterly curious. Actually, I think it's the first lesson in the moose chapter.

[PeterPan]

Do you think he does so because he dislikes math or simply because he can get away with it? Wow, thats pretty crazy. But then again when looking at cheating statistics in colleges I guess its not really that uncommon. Still if it was any of our kids I'd be really upset.

 

It's the age. It has nothing to do with whether she's a good teacher or selects materials well or this or that. My dd grew and inch and a half in the last couple months. They hit this puberty thing and are too busy doing that and growing up to put energy into MATH (or whatever doesn't interest them as much as boys and food and...). In fact, speaking of food, that's all my dd does is EAT.

 

So yeah, just hang on. Give your kid 2 more years, and he'll be just as annoying. :D

[PeterPan]

Call me crazy, but didn't David Chandler of MWB say to get them THROUGH puberty before starting Foerster? It's almost like you should hit it before or after, but not DURING.

[LisaKinVA]

Call me crazy, but didn't David Chandler of MWB say to get them THROUGH puberty before starting Foerster? It's almost like you should hit it before or after, but not DURING.

 

Well, that could get problematic, since my family is a bunch of late bloomers...or drawn-out bloomers. He started getting all moody and crying when he was 11. The girl crush started a couple of months before he turned 12... and all that's happened is his foot has grown (typical of men in my family. Feet grow and then somewhere around freshman year in high school they grow tall quickly). I'm not sure how to go about in a holding pattern for math for 2.5 more years :tongue_smilie:. And my dd is taking after my side too...(thankfully). But she just missed passing the placement for TT Algebra 1 now, and she still has half a year of MM6 to go.

[elegantlion]

Call me crazy, but didn't David Chandler of MWB say to get them THROUGH puberty before starting Foerster? It's almost like you should hit it before or after, but not DURING.

 

I'm afraid my ds is gearing up for a large growth spurt. He's not overly tall and is thin, but he's been eating like a bear going into hibernation for the last few weeks. Maybe his confusion is puberty brain.

 

I got Lial's in the mail today, really quick shipping. I went through chapter one today and I'm going to have him do the chapter review and test tomorrow.

 

I think I'll add some classical music, we used to do that. It kind of ties up his subconscious a little so he can focus.

 

We should all get prizes at the end of the year. Vodka and chocolate would work. :tongue_smilie:

[LisaKinVA]

Do you think he does so because he dislikes math or simply because he can get away with it?

 

He doesn't "dislike" math. He'd much rather learn to write code, design webpages, and do science (Physics and Chem), or build things...(LEGO Robotics, etc.). He can't do a lot of that stuff (especially the science part) without the math.

 

I think he does it because he's been able to kinda get away with it. Well, he WANTS to see if he can get away with it, anyhow. Maybe this is his way of seeing if mom and dad are really right, that math builds and grows... and if you don't learn THIS, doing the NEXT thing will be difficult to impossible.

 

The last time he got around the internet blocks we put up...it was more about being able to do it -- and not get caught. You could tell that he was proud of figuring it out (of course, now he isn't the one actually doing the work, now he tries to talk his brother or sister through the steps...and he can say THEY did it :glare:).

 

I told him last year that he couldn't "fake" his way through upper level math (I had a suspicion, but no proof. I'd quiz him on topics and he gave me all of the right answers... just like he "knows" how to do integers in theory, but the application is just not there.) He "says" he believes me now, but I guess we'll see.

[PeterPan]

I'm on a diet. Maybe a cruise instead? :)

[LisaKinVA]

I'm afraid my ds is gearing up for a large growth spurt. He's not overly tall and is thin, but he's been eating like a bear going into hibernation for the last few weeks. Maybe his confusion is puberty brain.

 

We should all get prizes at the end of the year. Vodka and chocolate would work. :tongue_smilie:

 

My son's foot grew 2 sizes last year...currently wears a 10, but he still hasn't broken 5 feet. I know he's due for a vertical spurt, I'm just praying his foot gets no bigger than a 12. My 6'5" older brother wears a 12... so there is hope. But, he didn't really grow "up" until he was 14 1/2. Before that it was just really his feet... and a bit of pudge.

 

DH made me a drink... now I need to get some sleep, because tomorrow I get to see how bad the brainfog/puberty/thinking he can fake it really is. I guess I should take some comfort that he passed the TT Algebra 1 pre-test, right? It's not too awfully bad...:sigh:

[PeterPan]

Lisa, if you want a chuckle, my dd12 is now almost 5'7" and wears a size 10 as well. So she would tower around your boy. :)

[LisaKinVA]

Lisa, if you want a chuckle, my dd12 is now almost 5'7" and wears a size 10 as well. So she would tower around your boy. :)

 

Heck, she'd tower over me :D Okay, not exactly tower, I'm 5'5". My boy would probably get all goofy, and then ask me what he's supposed to do...maybe he should call Millie (his crush...and he's very serious about her. They talk about LEGO a lot. :D Maybe I should see if I could get her to talk to him about MATH. Maybe he'd do it to please/impress her? :lol:)

[dereksurfs]

Call me crazy, but didn't David Chandler of MWB say to get them THROUGH puberty before starting Foerster? It's almost like you should hit it before or after, but not DURING.

 

That's a bit funny and somewhat scary to think about puberty only being a couple of years away for my oldest. I guess I'll have to time Foerster stategically. MUS, Maybe TT and some other algebra stuff first. I was only doing Pre-A at 12 anyway. Though times have changed a bit since my adolescence. But not that much I don't think. Skateboards, hangin' out with my friends at the beach and the like were more important than math. Cool hair became important about then too. Heck, I even survived PS in the 70s.:D

Edited February 1, 2012 by dereksurfs

[PeterPan]

Lisa, if your boy wants to tutor my girl in math, I'm all for it. Hey, she might even edge out Millie. My girl is a pretty good cook. :)

[PeterPan]

Derek, you can't plan the fog. It just happens. About the time you plan a certain way, it won't happen or will happen later. Just plod on.

[Janice in NJ]

Maybe have him spend a week working on some Khan Academy Badges? Does he like a video-game-model challenge? (Does earning "Power Points" on the screen motivate? :001_smile:)

 

It's free. Just login and go.

 

It would give you a break to think about this. (It's not good to make big decisions on a disastrous day. You need time to respond not react.) :001_smile:

 

Peace,

Janice

Edited February 1, 2012 by Janice in NJ

[Princess Peach]

Get the TT. It's the reason my DS12 and I haven't killed each other. :D

[SorrelZG]

This scares me. I have problems with my child and math but he's only six so of course, the answer to my problem is to lay off math, he's young - the implication being that as he ages, his attitude will be better. Or perhaps I've been misinterpreting the implications and what is really being advised is to not start these battles early - enjoy the years while you can get away with it. But then some will say that they wished they started earlier, thinking that dealing with it younger would have meant more pleasant older years while others say they wish they'd laid off until later saying that early work created the problem - and then there are the positive stories of those who started young or waited and all is great and the way they did it is why ... and then there is the reality that children are all individuals and vary so widely in temperament and inclination ... HOW IS A MOTHER TO KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH HER CHILD??! :willy_nilly:

[LisaKinVA]

This scares me. I have problems with my child and math but he's only six so of course, the answer to my problem is to lay off math, he's young - the implication being that as he ages, his attitude will be better. Or perhaps I've been misinterpreting the implications and what is really being advised is to not start these battles early - enjoy the years while you can get away with it. But then some will say that they wished they started earlier, thinking that dealing with it younger would have meant more pleasant older years while others say they wish they'd laid off until later saying that early work created the problem - and then there are the positive stories of those who started young or waited and all is great and the way they did it is why ... and then there is the reality that children are all individuals and vary so widely in temperament and inclination ... HOW IS A MOTHER TO KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH HER CHILD??! :willy_nilly:

 

Well, having the 12yo, I can say all of this is true some of the time. :D

 

When my son was 5 I used 100EZ Lessons and Saxon Math. My happy, compliant, eager-to-learn child would break down in tears if I brought either of those books. I tried just doing the assessments in Saxon... he'd still cry. IMO, a 5yo shouldn't be crying over lessons. When we (finally) switched to Abeka for phonics and SM for math, he was soo happy, and it became an enjoyable time for us.

 

The I don't wanna phase happened around 8. But, it wasn't because something was boring or difficult, he just would rather be doing something else. I made him do it. I'm still waiting for him to grow out of this phase :glare:. Then there was the "not-sticking" with grammar. I was using a really good grammar program, but after several years he still could not tell the difference between a noun or a pronoun... an action verb or a linking verb (we won't even talk about adj., adv., prepositions, conjunctions or interjections!). After dragging my feet, we got MCT and within a week of really doing the 4-level analysis, he can NOW consistently tell me what is what in a sentence (no, not perfect all the time, but he can figure out why something is wrong!).

 

So how you respond to each battle is really understanding "why." Not all kids are going to jump out of bed and say, "I want to do school!" I've had 3 young ones who did, and now have my first who would rather do anything else (it doesn't matter how fun I make it... although for the first time, she is reading out loud to herself... so that is progress!). Most young children do want to learn, and if there are tears or frustrations it's usually a signal something is wrong. In the case of my oldest, dig-your-heels-in, and tears of frustration and content not sticking usually means a mis-match between program and child (a really, really BAD mismatch, that all of the laying off, or pushing forward will never cure). The I don't wannas usually clear up to an extent with carrot/stick approaches and don't become huge blow-outs (well, not yet... my oldest is still my pretty easy-going child. When we "butt heads" it's not ugly, more matter of fact.

 

I'm fortunate in that I've been pretty much able to use the same curriculum for all of my kids... course my 12yo is now asking me "What's a factor tree :glare:"

[LisaKinVA]

Get the TT. It's the reason my DS12 and I haven't killed each other. :D

 

I did. Should be here next week. :D

[dereksurfs]

He doesn't "dislike" math. He'd much rather learn to write code, design webpages, and do science (Physics and Chem), or build things...(LEGO Robotics, etc.). He can't do a lot of that stuff (especially the science part) without the math.

 

I think he does it because he's been able to kinda get away with it. Well, he WANTS to see if he can get away with it, anyhow. Maybe this is his way of seeing if mom and dad are really right, that math builds and grows... and if you don't learn THIS, doing the NEXT thing will be difficult to impossible.

...

 

It sounds like he has a lot of natural skills. If he likes science, computers and the idea of writing code I'd recommend having him try a little programming if you haven't already. I have my 10 y/o learning programming using Game Maker's Apprentice. He really enjoys building his own games. Next we will be doing Android programming with him to use on his Nook Color.

 

Also it would be good for him to talk with adults in these fields to realize the importance of math. It is sometimes good to hear these things from ppl other than one's parents to really solidify what is being taught.

[PeterPan]

This scares me. I have problems with my child and math but he's only six so of course, the answer to my problem is to lay off math, he's young - the implication being that as he ages, his attitude will be better. Or perhaps I've been misinterpreting the implications and what is really being advised is to not start these battles early - enjoy the years while you can get away with it. But then some will say that they wished they started earlier, thinking that dealing with it younger would have meant more pleasant older years while others say they wish they'd laid off until later saying that early work created the problem - and then there are the positive stories of those who started young or waited and all is great and the way they did it is why ... and then there is the reality that children are all individuals and vary so widely in temperament and inclination ... HOW IS A MOTHER TO KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH HER CHILD??! :willy_nilly:

 

SCGS, when you have a young child who is generally compliant but not hitting age norms or refusing to do age appropriate or age-typical activities or doing them WAY different from the norm, I would start looking for answers. Sometimes what you're seeing at this age is the hint of something that's going to snowball later (ADHD, vision problems, whatever).

 

So no, I wouldn't blow it off. You shouldn't be this frustrated. I would look for answers.

[Colleen in SEVA]

We have hit a road-block in math. HUGE.

...

My issue is this is NOT a child who likes "discovering" how to do something. He does not like too much of a challenge and will absolutely shut down. He wants to be TOLD how and why, then apply.

...

And then, there is the fact he's 12, and can't remember to put the burrito that he didn't finish away before going to bed (among other things)

 

We went through this a few months ago with my oldest. Sigh. In our case it wasn't completely his fault -- I had to hand over his schooling to someone else during cancer treatment and they could not effectively teach him math, so I figured he could just take a few months off since he was so far ahead in math. In hind sight that was a bad idea. When we started up math again he was going through that "brain fog" stage. He told me he couldn't remember how to add fractions, and had never learned how to multiply fractions. The fact that he had completed Singapore 1-6, LoF Fractions, Key To Fractions, MUS Fractions mattered not.

 

I first had him go through the Teaching Company Basic Math series (which was really old and they don't sell anymore, I bought it used) and that reminded him HOW to do the things he had forgotten, but he wasn't confident (still had to stop and think if he had to change the denominator or not). So I went to the dark side (tee hee) and had him go through a full level of Saxon. He took the placement test and scored into Algebra 1/2, but I backed him up to level 7/6 because it spent more time covering the things he needed practice on. My plan worked! After practicing with fractions every single day for months, he is back to the point where he can answer problems quickly and confidently. He can get through a lesson in about 30 minutes if he isn't distracted.

 

Since this was all review/practice for him, I still continued forward in his Algebra book but at a MUCH slower pace. He spends about 20 minutes on Algebra and 30-60 minutes on Saxon per day (depeding on distraction level... as I type this he is twisting a paper clip around his pencil).

 

I know most people don't like Saxon (and it isn't my long term plan for this child), but it was exactly what he needed the last few months. I just thought I would throw another option out there for you. :)

[LisaKinVA]

We went through this a few months ago with my oldest. Sigh. In our case it wasn't completely his fault -- I had to hand over his schooling to someone else during cancer treatment and they could not effectively teach him math, so I figured he could just take a few months off since he was so far ahead in math. In hind sight that was a bad idea. When we started up math again he was going through that "brain fog" stage. He told me he couldn't remember how to add fractions, and had never learned how to multiply fractions. The fact that he had completed Singapore 1-6, LoF Fractions, Key To Fractions, MUS Fractions mattered not.

 

I first had him go through the Teaching Company Basic Math series (which was really old and they don't sell anymore, I bought it used) and that reminded him HOW to do the things he had forgotten, but he wasn't confident (still had to stop and think if he had to change the denominator or not). So I went to the dark side (tee hee) and had him go through a full level of Saxon. He took the placement test and scored into Algebra 1/2, but I backed him up to level 7/6 because it spent more time covering the things he needed practice on. My plan worked! After practicing with fractions every single day for months, he is back to the point where he can answer problems quickly and confidently. He can get through a lesson in about 30 minutes if he isn't distracted.

 

Since this was all review/practice for him, I still continued forward in his Algebra book but at a MUCH slower pace. He spends about 20 minutes on Algebra and 30-60 minutes on Saxon per day (depeding on distraction level... as I type this he is twisting a paper clip around his pencil).

:)

 

This is kind-of what I'm doing right now... but I'm having him take the Basic Math chapter tests & LoF Decimals Bridges to see what he remembers & can do. I also have him do an integer card as a warm-up (they aren't easy...), backing up to re-cover material as necessary. Then, it's off for our 4th Pre-Algebra course along side TT Algebra 1 (which has a lot of review at the front).

 

I think his biggest hang-up has been integers...that's why he's doing an integer card every day. Hopefully we'll get through this bump, but we'll probably finish up AoPS Pre-Algebra and TT Algebra 1 before going back to Foersters and supplementing with AoPS or LoF. Two years of Algebra...of that I am certain...with lots of review.

[dkholland]

Are you sure you don't have my ds at your house????:confused:

 

:grouphug: I am right there with you. My ds, age 13, can do the problems if he has examples to follow and I will think he has it....and then he fails the quiz! He is in CD Alg. 1 and my dh and I feel he will do another year of Alg. 1 with someone else. Alg. 1 is a foundational to other high school courses, so I am in no hurry to move onto geometry until I know he has Algebra under his belt. He will get as far as pre-calc, unless the math-thing clicks in his head, then maybe he can get to calculus at the cc.

 

Just take it one day at a time. God must have something to teach us with these boys:001_smile:

[frankcassiesmom]

We have Descartes Cove which is a math/problem-solving adventure game...as well as the game Equate. This is less about losing his "love" of math, but finally getting to the point where he can't fake what he doesn't really know. He did admit to my dh tonight that he "figured out how to cheat" his way through K12 pre-Algebra B, basically, he did virtually no math last year. And I sit here thinking about how much I praised his efforts...:glare:

 

My just turned 12 yo is doing Saxon 7/6 and recently realized that he could "fudge" his way through it as well. I have become a stickler on showing ALL of his work, even the littlest details. This way he has to show me in detail that he knows HOW to do every part of each problem. It is working wonders! He's relearning as he goes. It's working great.

[LisaKinVA]

My just turned 12 yo is doing Saxon 7/6 and recently realized that he could "fudge" his way through it as well. I have become a stickler on showing ALL of his work, even the littlest details. This way he has to show me in detail that he knows HOW to do every part of each problem. It is working wonders! He's relearning as he goes. It's working great.

 

Yup...showing all of that work is a bear! I've explained that in Algebra you get credit for each correct step, not just having the correct answer. So, if a problem has 4 steps, it's worth 4 points. If you get two steps correct, but miss two, you still get 2 points towards your grade. He's not giving me problems showing his work anymore, but this is probably why he is having more problems...oh the things he's done!

 

Most of his "bombing" of his chapter test from Foersters was with integers (dropping negative signs out of the blue is the biggest). His second issue is with combining like terms. His third issue is remembering he has to do the same operation to both sides of the equation (dividing BOTH sides by 5). He can apparently do any one of these things individually...but when they get put into a longer equation, he just "forgets" and gets confused, and I get the deer in the headlights, what do you mean? I don't know how to do that! kind of responses.

 

Review, review, review is what we're doing for a little while. Of course today was a lesson in canceling before multiplying/dividing fractions... he forgot he could do that... and was multiplying out 11/81 x 9/44. :tongue_smilie: I didn't realize the problem until after 30 min. into his math time. So, tomorrow we'll be reviewing CANCELING.

[Leila]

Would you consider letting him do the Khan Academy on line? Lessons are short and Mr. Sal explain things well. I think doing different, heavy math curriculum makes it a lot harder for kids to digest. I believe simple, short and repetition helps a lot.

 

http://www.khanacademy.org/

 

My son is 11y/o and only have done Saxon but for practice, he does this. It helps to cement things. Begin with easier concept and build on that. Don't start where he is having trouble. It just make them not try or complain before actually doing something.

 

l hope things get better.

 

Leila

[LisaKinVA]

http://www.khanacademy.org/

 

 

Leila

 

At this point, I am not allowing him any online programs. While the computer is set up in a public spot, he has ways of doing things to computers and getting to where he should not be (not bad content...just games, etc.), and not doing what he's supposed to be doing. So, the only computer he may use (still in public) is the one NOT connected to the internet. No videos for now, really. He really doesn't give me trouble when he focuses on the task at hand... but computers and internet really destroy his focus, so the less reliant his programs are on them, the better.

[elegantlion]

I don't know if this will help anyone else or not. Today I had a revelation about math. We've been using programs where the TE is either a solutions manual or answer key. I've personally been going through the lessons and completing them prior to ds for my own benefit. However, my teaching comes from my notes or the answer key. If I teach from the book then ds doesn't have a copy in front of him. Early this year we used MEP and he loved it, but I had printed off two copies of the books, one for him, one for myself.

 

I have no clue why it never dawned on me before, but in most subjects I use a TE that is a full copy of the student text or I buy my own copy of the book. Ds was a delayed reader, so that method has worked great for us. But I never applied it in math. A few of the texts I couldn't find an affordable copy (60s Dolciani). So we're starting with Lial's Beginning algebra (day 3, no real opinion yet). I ordered an extra copy for myself and a solutions manual too, all for about 11.00.

 

It's very distracting to flow to pass the book back and forth. So while I'm sure this is old news or not relevant to everyone, hopefully it will help someone. If not then this is my bad homeschooling confession for the week. :lol:

[LisaKinVA]

Well, AoPS Pre-Algebra arrived in the mail today. DS completed section 1.1 before we ordered it, and is now working on 1.2 I thought it was funny that they start off the section with the game "24" (I purchased the cards from a teacher supply store...I feel even "smarter" for purchasing them without knowing AoPS was using them. ;))

 

We are going to be doing a lot of hodge-podging it for awhile. A little AoPS, A little LoF, a little Chalk Dust Basic Math. Whenever he "forgets" a concept, back-up, review...move forward. There will be plenty of variety, that's for certain! TT Algebra 1 hasn't arrived, but I think we'll hold off doing much in that at least until March. That should get us through our review of Basic Math first.

 

So far, he's done pretty well with the concepts. A few "blank stare" moments consisting of "I've never done that before." :banghead: , but it (brain fog) could be much, much worse.