How do I handle this narration issue?

[Staceyshoe]

Forgive me. I know I've read at least one thread about this issue before. After 20 minutes of searching, I'm still not finding it.

 

Ds writes really wonderful sentences. He's able to hold long sentences in his head to get them down on paper. When he doesn't know he will be writing it down, he gives wonderful and rich content in a very articulate form. Then if I have him write it, I don't have to repeat it--he is capable of writing it all down from memory. When he is asked to give a narration that he knows he will be writing down, I can see him re-working it in his mind until he comes up with the shortest possible words and sentence(s). They are really sub-par when compared with his ability.

 

I really feel that it boils down to laziness about writing. I never ask him to write more than two sentences, and I don't think that's excessive at all. By the end of the year, I'd like him to be writing paragraphs. Even more importantly, I would like him to take pride in his work and do his best instead of taking the easy way out.

 

How do I handle this? Alternate having him write a narration with me writing it? (In which case, I am certain the narrations will be drastically different, and he still won't be giving his best effort each time.) Feel free to link previous threads. I just know I've seen this come up before.

[Critterfixer]

I really feel that it boils down to laziness about writing.

 

Could be, although I might be in the minority when I say that being able to condense a long paraphrase into a short summary is a strength, rather than a weakness.

If he is capable and you think this would be of use, take his narration down in it's long form by typing it for him. Then have him write his own, based on the original, showing him how to take the ideas and create concise, well-constructed sentences.

 

If you want him to be writing a paragraph by the end of the grade year it would be prudent to step up his writing. Maybe you could break the writing session into two sections: original narration and revision, based on your review of his work and corrections to his work. If he's one of those children who love illustrating his work, I'd have him save the illustration for the final revision to create a sense of pride in the finished product.

[kristinannie]

Do you think that maybe since he is only in 2nd grade that thinking about the writing and the narrating is just too much for him at this point? I think that if he can do a beautiful narration and then write it out, that is really good. I know that CM doesn't suggest doing written narrations until a child is older. Maybe could do you oral narrations all week and then once or twice a week ask him to write it down afterward? I think that would be plenty for a child that age. Just my 2 cents....I don't have any kids that age yet and I know we all have different goals for our children!

[boscopup]

My son did that. He'd even do the narration in his head, counting words, then shortening it. He doesn't want to write, plain and simple. Mentally, his summary skills are excellent. He just doesn't want to write more than ten words. ;)

 

I put a stop to that by telling him that if he did short sentences, I would have him write more sentences. So if I say to describe the passage in 2-3 sentences, when he's supposed to take one sentence by dictation, and he tries to give me 3 word sentences, I'll have him do more of his narration by dictation. He quickly learned that he'd end up writing more if he gave me short, choppy sentences.

[matrips]

We had a similar issue while doing WWE 1 this year. All had been good until we got to the week/day when they had to tell me one thing they remembered, I would write it down and they would copy. Sentences got very short! When it was just me doing the writing, the sentences had been very robust and long!

 

I just finally explained one day why we did copywork, narration, and writing down the one thing they remember in their own words- how it was meant to help them learn how to write etc. And that by doing such short sentences, it was negating the whole point of the program, blah, blah... I'm not sure if there was a hidden threat of doing a lot more copywork if they couldn't provide a decent sentence of their own to copy :) But knowing the 'why' really seemed to help. In fact, my one child started making longer sentences because she wanted to make sure she learned how to write! And my son who gave me the 3 word sentences got back to ones of regular length, and without any complaints.

[stripe]

I'd write it down as he narrates and have him write it out as copywork, perhaps another day.

 

I do plenty of oral narration as well. My son's hand gets tired.

[mom2abunch]

:iagree:

I would write them out for him and have him do them as copywork. If the problem still persists and you are pretty sure it is just laziness, I would most likely do something very similar to what boscopup said she would do.

 

just my 2c

[Staceyshoe]

Can I just say that you guys are so awesome! I had no idea how to handle it, and you've presented me with so many ideas to choose from. This will be my go-to thread for a while whenever narrations are not working for us!:)

 

It never even occurred to me to explain the purpose of narrations to ds, but I'm confident that will make a difference to him. I will do this and then maybe have him do copywork another day. If all else fails, I'll knuckle down on him a little harder, but hopefully it won't come to that.

[stripe]

Btw my son also gets a kick out of recording on the computer. (I bought a cheap mic and use audacity.) Maybe your son would too?

[redsquirrel]

He's not lazy, he is young. Take it down as dictation and tell him to write what he likes. I say you don't make a big deal about it. He can come up with wonderful sentences and say them to you. That is wonderful! He is going to grow up to be a good writer. Scribbling them down at his young age isn't the biggest hurdle. Handwriting is mechanics. Turning inarticulate thoughts into words is the biggest challenge and he is doing a great job.

 

He has many years ahead of him to write things down. In time, as he gets older he will write more it himself. In a few years you will have a 6th grader who writes great narrations and outlines and all kinds of things.

 

Do let him dictate to you. Let him see you write it out. Let him see what his words look like on the page. Give him a small amount as copywork if you like. But don't make him write it out if he just can't do it yet. You will only encourage him to censor himself. He will start coming up with less interesting and detailed narrations because he knows the 'punishment' is to write it all out. You don't want that. Now is the time for him to enjoy what he can create.

[Alice]

My son also did the same thing last year. If he knew he was going to have to do dictation using one of his sentences he'd come up with sentences like "The dog ran." One time I wrote down what he said then made up my own sentences for dictation. He complained. I told him to come up with better ones on his own next time. For the most part, that took care of it.

[Tabrett]

Read WWE The Complete Writer. It would answer all your questions and explain the developmental stages from copywork, narration to writing without help. The ability to write a good paragraph doesn't happen till around 4th grade. It isn't just the ability to remember what you narrated, but also the mechanics of writing such as grammar, spelling and physical stamina of the hand. Beautiful narriations are what you want in 2nd grade.

Write down what he narriates and have him copy. Next year write down his narriations and dictate the to him.

[boscopup]

Write down what he narriates and have him copy. Next year write down his narriations and dictate the to him.

 

This doesn't actually solve the problem of the OP though. Her son, like my son, is shortening the narration because he knows he will have to write part of it (not even the whole narration - just part!). I follow WWE to the letter, so in WWE1 when it said to have my child copy one sentence of his narration, that's what I planned to do. The problem was that my child knew he would be copying part of his narration, so he would purposely change his lovely narration into a short, choppy narration. He wanted his copywork sentence to be as short as possible! Thankfully, I was able to solve the problem with the threat of more writing.

 

I don't think the OP is doing anything developmentally inappropriate. :)

[Staceyshoe]

I don't think the OP is doing anything developmentally inappropriate. :)

 

Thanks for saying this! Even though my son is young, I can see that he is very capable of doing quality two-sentence narrations. One of my reasons for homeschooling is that I can individualize his instruction for his particular talents and challenges.

[choirfarm]

This doesn't actually solve the problem of the OP though. Her son, like my son, is shortening the narration because he knows he will have to write part of it (not even the whole narration - just part!). I follow WWE to the letter, so in WWE1 when it said to have my child copy one sentence of his narration, that's what I planned to do. The problem was that my child knew he would be copying part of his narration, so he would purposely change his lovely narration into a short, choppy narration. He wanted his copywork sentence to be as short as possible! Thankfully, I was able to solve the problem with the threat of more writing.

 

I don't think the OP is doing anything developmentally inappropriate. :)

 

That is exactly what my daughter does. Part of the problem is that she changes it to things she knows how to spell. I haven't figured out how to fix this yet. Plus, she wants to write as little as possible.

 

So some of you just make up a sentence and give it to them if they make a short one? Do you tell them you are doing this??? She will come up with beautiful narrations with great vocabulary more on junior high level, but if she knows she has to write it she will say The dog ran because she knows how to spell it.

[boscopup]

So some of you just make up a sentence and give it to them if they make a short one? Do you tell them you are doing this??? She will come up with beautiful narrations with great vocabulary more on junior high level, but if she knows she has to write it she will say The dog ran because she knows how to spell it.

 

First, I have told my son that I will help him with spelling, so not to worry about how to spell words. That has helped a lot. Sometimes I will write the hard-to-spell words on the white board, so he can look at that for reference while writing. In WWE1, he only had to copy part of his narration, so spelling wasn't a big deal. In dictation, I've told him all along that I will help with spelling. It's a writing exercise, not a spelling exercise.

 

Second, we're at the stage where he's only supposed to be dictating one of his sentences, so if the narration is 3 sentences and he gives me "The dog ran", I'll have him then copy the other two sentences, so the total ends up being more than the original one sentence would have been. Alternatively, I might just say "You can do better than that", and he'll reword the sentence to be longer. ;) Or if he's given 2 really short sentences (instructions being "give me 2-3 sentences telling about..."), I'll ask for a 3rd and maybe even a 4th if necessary. Basically, I have him keep going until there is an appropriate amount of content. When I started all this, I told him that if he gave me short, choppy sentences, he'd be writing more, so he better give me his normal length sentences. In return, I don't always pick the first sentence to dictate. Sometimes I'll take whatever the shortest sentence is in his narration. He knows I might do that, so there is a reward there for giving normal sentences.

 

Third, when we're editing the narrations (just started doing this), we can expand anything too short, though we haven't had to do that since I nipped this in the bud last year in WWE1 when we weren't editing (hard to edit "tell me one thing you remember").

[kalphs]

Read WWE The Complete Writer. It would answer all your questions and explain the developmental stages from copywork, narration to writing without help. The ability to write a good paragraph doesn't happen till around 4th grade. It isn't just the ability to remember what you narrated, but also the mechanics of writing such as grammar, spelling and physical stamina of the hand. Beautiful narriations are what you want in 2nd grade.

Write down what he narriates and have him copy. Next year write down his narriations and dictate the to him.

:iagree:

[Caribbean Queen]

When he doesn't know he will be writing it down, he gives wonderful and rich content in a very articulate form.

 

Don't tell him he will have to write it down before hand?

 

I have read The Complete Writer, and I didn't get the impression it encouraged long sentences and rich content. It seemed to me, it encouraged short summaries. I am coming from a CM, AmblesideOnline-ish background. Am I interpreting it wrongly?

[Critterfixer]

Thanks for saying this! Even though my son is young, I can see that he is very capable of doing quality two-sentence narrations. One of my reasons for homeschooling is that I can individualize his instruction for his particular talents and challenges.

 

And he's a smart little guy too, realizing that he can get out of a long sentence by shortening it. (Again, being able to a long old alligator of a sentence and chop it down to a lizard is not necessarily an evil. It is a necessary part of creating a summary.)

 

Summary is not as easy as it sounds, particularly when dealing with a literature selection. It's easier with history and science.

 

I use the whiteboard or a sheet of paper when I work through a narration with my boys. One is hFA, so teaching him everything required to come up with a narration at all has been a challenge. I actually had to get a book on reading comprehension so that I could teach him the steps one at a time.

The other boy is excessively verbal, and detail oriented to the point that he can't throw anything away when it comes to narration, because it might be important! In his case I've had to teach him what it means to summarize and find the central event or message in the story. For him I found that asking him to sell me the story rather than to tell me the story has been helpful. He's good at teasing, and he actually likes the idea of holding back a bit in order to "interest" the potential reader.

 

Different things work for different kids. But both of them have enjoyed a lot more hands-on discussion of the process. They also enjoy the editing bit, because they get to see how to take the sentences apart to make them work better. (This often shortens the length but improves the quality.)