Classical Composition vs. Classical Writing

[Roxy Roller]

Can someone who has used both of these programs please compare/contrast them for me?

[Create Your Ritual]

I wish I could do that for you Roxanne. ;-) I do know that CC teaches the 18 figures of description that are heavily used in the Fable and Narrative stages. (I have both of the books, so I know this for sure) If you are interested in seeing how a CC class might run email the staff at Memoria Press as they have started an online CC class that works through the first 4 levels. I was able to watch about 45 min of the class which happened to be a story in the Narrative stage they were working on.

 

I think CC is mostly the writing and copia side of things, whereas CW incorporates writing, grammar, 6 sentence shuffle, literary analysis. Now some say because of all these elements in place, the Homer stage CAN be a bit more difficult to teach.. it's very indepth. I would have to choose between it and WWS at this point as there would be no time for both.

 

Right now we are doing fine with CC Fable AND WWS. We also work through MCT Town and SC Elementary, as well as th first 15 weeks of ALL. I do Language Arts from 8:45 - 10:30 every morning with a 15 min. break and we rotate things through with our grammar, but generally do CC and WWS every day of the week. Sorry... that went off topic a bit. lol

 

I am sure someone else will be able to weight in on CW for you. I WISH I had Homer here to look through some days.. ;-)

[Roxy Roller]

I wish I could do that for you Roxanne. ;-) I do know that CC teaches the 18 figures of description that are heavily used in the Fable and Narrative stages. (I have both of the books, so I know this for sure) If you are interested in seeing how a CC class might run email the staff at Memoria Press as they have started an online CC class that works through the first 4 levels. I was able to watch about 45 min of the class which happened to be a story in the Narrative stage they were working on.

 

I think CC is mostly the writing and copia side of things, whereas CW incorporates writing, grammar, 6 sentence shuffle, literary analysis. Now some say because of all these elements in place, the Homer stage CAN be a bit more difficult to teach.. it's very indepth. I would have to choose between it and WWS at this point as there would be no time for both.

 

Right now we are doing fine with CC Fable AND WWS. We also work through MCT Town and SC Elementary, as well as th first 15 weeks of ALL. I do Language Arts from 8:45 - 10:30 every morning with a 15 min. break and we rotate things through with our grammar, but generally do CC and WWS every day of the week. Sorry... that went off topic a bit. lol

 

I am sure someone else will be able to weight in on CW for you. I WISH I had Homer here to look through some days.. ;-)

 

The bolded is what I am interested in. ;) I think that I need to do some extra work with my DD, but I am unsure how to fit everything in.:tongue_smilie:My DD would probably revolt if I added another writing curriculum to our line up. I am wondering if I need to drop some other things. I just wish I had stepped things up a year or two ago, but with my crew, I was too busy making sure the younger ones were advancing with their 3Rs.

[Create Your Ritual]

Well, my ds8 and dd10 stay together in nearly all things except Math and History. I figured early on that I would let ds come along for the ride and learn what he learned. ;-) I knew I couldn't possibly teach all those subjects separately at the level I wished to teach them. As it stands right now I have help 'most' of this school year with my three year old. I plan to have him go to pre-school next year and may even have him go to kindergarten as well. I say all of this not to talk you into outsourcing everything, but just to say that it IS difficult to try to teach many levels to 5 different kids at once. Honestly I would have your twins, DS10 and DD12 all together.. but that's just me. Others do a wonderful job, I just don't happen to be able to hold all those balls in the air so to speak.

[Cleopatra]

Well, SaDonna and I have been having some conversations, attempting to compare and contrast CW (which I'm using) and CC (which she's using). Let's just say, the conversations will continue ..... :D

 

As for comparing and contrasting CW & WWS, I can try to help (the operative word being "try" ;) ). I finally caved in and downloaded the WWS sample; we've been doing a few weeks of this program and I've flipped through it. The general difference I find is that CW's (and I'm sure CC, as well) main focus appears to be on the language the student is using and not just the format. My dd is in Homer B and does many exercises on one sentence only, practicing rewriting it in a myriad of different ways, using many forms of grammar and content. CW really gives the student skills to handle words and language and not be intimidated by them. It helps the student work towards writing with fluidity and beauty. I'm not saying that one doesn't or can't work on language use when using WWS, but it is intentionally and consistently worked on when using CW. Writing With Style, of course, hasn't been released/written yet so perhaps it will focus on language use more at that level but, for now, CW is, IMO, superior in that area.

 

However, we have really enjoyed our sessions with WWS. There is an emphasis on structure that is at an easier level than CW and it deals with straight non-fiction in some models. With CW, the limited non-fiction we've seen is in a narrative form which is somewhat different from the factual writing you seen in textbooks.

 

I am managing to do CW & WWS together. In Homer, there are 4 lessons for each skill and this year I've decided to do only 3 of the lessons per skill. I think it's enough, and my dd will be able to practice all theses skills in future levels. That gives us enough time to do some WWS and keep our sanity! :D

 

Well, I hope that helps a little and doesn't confuse you more. :tongue_smilie:

Edited November 21, 2011 by Cleopatra
Grammar

[Create Your Ritual]

Cleopatra, I completely agree with how CW and perhaps CC move the student towards more fluid sentences. I know there are students who innately understand this process, but mine are not in that category. We are noticing that the creative sentences are being sidelined a bit in favor of the mechanics of getting organized within the WWS assignments. I know my dc are young though, and so much of what I am looking for with regards to fluidity and beautiful writing might come with age and more practice.

 

All that said, I do like WWS for the organizational aspect and the fact that they are getting a lot of practice with summarizing and outlining from historical and scientific resources. It's like how you learned how to write in public school, but way better in my opinion. I was never told the difference between narrative and descriptive paragraphs and the elements that might go into each. I was never told it was a good idea to include quotations from the figure in history you were writing about. I learned about similes, but not really.. lol.

 

Honestly though Cleopatra, we have enjoyed CC a lot and I think I will continue reinforcing the 18 figures of description no matter which direction we head. I am SOOOO tempted to just press the button for Homer but I honestly can't figure out if I can use just the Core Text, or if I truly need the IG and student books. Also, do you have to use Harvey's to get all the sentence practice in.... wait, I may have answered that question as I see you use R&S.

 

Too many questions... ;-)

[Create Your Ritual]

Oh, and the other thing I am trying to figure out is whether I can get to the same place using Sentence Composing and Killgallon books along with WWS and MCT, etc. etc. I am not sure what compelled me to piece it out to all those different curriculums, when apparently it is all in Homer. lol. I just can never decide.

[lewelma]

Well, I now have WWS, CC Fable and CW Homer, and have finally read them all. Yikes!

 

I think one major difference between WWS and CC/CW is that WWS integrates fiction and nonfiction every year, whereas CC/CW do 2-3 years of fiction only, and then I get the impression that they switch to more expository/persuasive writing in the later years. Personally, my report loving kids would lynch me if we had only done stories and narrative and descriptive writing for grades 2 through 5!

 

I too plan to augment WWS with some progym because we will need a high school level program when we finish with WWS and I think it will be hard to skip progym levels 1-4, and start with level 5 for highschool. However, I do believe that SWB is integrating progym ideas into her WWS so that we will only need to study about half of the material in the CC/CW earlier levels.

 

My plan is to use CC Fable's description work to improve ds(11)'s WWS writing of narratives, descriptions, etc. I doubt he will use it much in the nonfiction writing. I don't think I will show him actual Fable text, just introduce him to 2 types of description every week for 6 weeks, and try to get him to put them in his writing. The backwards and from the middle rewrites in CC Fable we will skip as they are in CW Homer.

 

After the descriptive work, we will be using CW Homer for Older Beginners. We will take the 20 week course and stretch it over 2 years, so that it will only be a couple of hours each week on top of WWS. The first day out of 4 is really literary analysis , and the second day is grammar which we won't do. Day 3 and 4 are copia which are very good, we will dabble with these but if he hates them we might do Killgallon sentence composing instead.

 

So basically, what I am creating is a mess. :D But seriously, WWS will be our core. DS will do it all. Then for 30 minutes a day he will work with me to make sure he has all the skills from the early levels of the progym. Hopefully, this will give us a straightforward progression from WWS to the intensive use of CW in High School.

 

Ruth in NZ

[lewelma]

I am SOOOO tempted to just press the button for Homer but I honestly can't figure out if I can use just the Core Text, or if I truly need the IG and student books.

 

You can definitely use just the Core Text. What you would have to do is study it yourself, truly understand it, and then teach it to your kids with whatever material you are currently using. We might just be doing this. I think I could use the Homer Core Text to analyze the fiction material in WWS. However, I do like the choices of literature that were chosen in student books. I don't need the workbook, I just need the literature choices.

 

Ruth

[lewelma]

Oh, and the other thing I am trying to figure out is whether I can get to the same place using Sentence Composing and Killgallon books along with WWS and MCT, etc. etc. I am not sure what compelled me to piece it out to all those different curriculums, when apparently it is all in Homer. lol. I just can never decide.

 

CW Homer has MORE copia than WWS or Killgallon by probably 3 times. I think it really depends on what your kids like and how well they learn from each of them. Because I truly plan to use CW in High School, I want to make sure that they can do it the CW way. But Killgallon is a book you could just hand them and they could do independently. So if it is a teacher time-intensive problem, do what WILL get done, rather than what might be the best but is not likely to get done.

 

MCT does not really do any copia that I have seen. And it does not have direct writing instruction. It did not work for my DS.

 

Ruth

[Cleopatra]

 

Honestly though Cleopatra, we have enjoyed CC a lot and I think I will continue reinforcing the 18 figures of description no matter which direction we head. I am SOOOO tempted to just press the button for Homer but I honestly can't figure out if I can use just the Core Text, or if I truly need the IG and student books. Also, do you have to use Harvey's to get all the sentence practice in.... wait, I may have answered that question as I see you use R&S.

 

Too many questions... ;-)

 

Go on ..... buy Homer core! You know you want to ...... ;)

 

Seriously, it might be a good idea. Give me a couple of days and I'll pm you with some further explanation of the six sentence shuffle.

 

Using R&S for grammar is working well, although at one time CW was behind us with the level of the grammar they expected and now they're ahead. :confused: There is enough explanation in the core, and we have a good enough grasp of grammar to forge ahead, and we eventually come upon what they are covering, in R&S.

 

 

Well, I now have WWS, CC Fable and CW Homer, and have finally read them all. Yikes!

 

I think one major difference between WWS and CC/CW is that WWS integrates fiction and nonfiction every year, whereas CC/CW do 2-3 years of fiction only, and then I get the impression that they switch to more expository/persuasive writing in the later years. Personally, my report loving kids would lynch me if we had only done stories and narrative and descriptive writing for grades 2 through 5!

 

......

 

So basically, what I am creating is a mess. :D But seriously, WWS will be our core. DS will do it all. Then for 30 minutes a day he will work with me to make sure he has all the skills from the early levels of the progym. Hopefully, this will give us a straightforward progression from WWS to the intensive use of CW in High School.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

Don't feel alone ....... I may end up with all of them too. :D I was intrigued when SaDonna told me about CC's 18 figures of description ..... :bigear:

 

CW does have non-fiction (ie. Xenephon to the Sea) but it is in a narrative form. However, my dd has no problem when I ask her to do a report on Albrecht Dürer or a science report. Each would have a type of narrative flow to them, which I like, but they would still be within the scope of the project.

 

I like your plan! From what I've learned from SaDonna about CC, I probably would have used CC Fable and then began with CW Homer, supplementing with WWS. Honestly, WWS is adding more models that my dd hasn't experienced but she had acquired the skills with CW to go through WWS quite speedily.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Cleopatra
Clarity

[Create Your Ritual]

O.K... ha ... I think you talked me into it. ;-) Although I have talked myself into it at least 5 times already...

 

Originally I thought I might have found a Homer Core Text and OB workbooks to go with it, but they haven't responded in the For Sale section for a few weeks now. ;-(

 

I have to decide between the OB vs the Homer A & B or just the Homer text. I am with Lewelma and may just need a bit of direction and what the selections are, but initially in order to wrap my brain fully around the Core I can see where having everything would help with clarifying things.

[Create Your Ritual]

Cleopatra, pm me your email address and I will send you something. (Intriguing yes? lol)

[Cleopatra]

Cleopatra, pm me your email address and I will send you something. (Intriguing yes? lol)

 

Consider yourself pm'd! :D

[1Togo]

CW Narrative includes figures of description that are appropriate for non-fiction writing as well as other valuable skills, so it's worth working through a portion of the Narrative lessons.

 

As Ruth said, CW Homer has MORE copia that WWS. It has more copia than CC as well. There is no need to add anything to CW Homer for grammar because CW uses Harvey's for that. The word, sentence and paragraph work in Homer applies the grammar lessons. In addition, the analysis skills in CW Homer are excellent, beyond the usual elementary/middle school fare. The number of writing skills covered in Home is extensive, and after you understand the layout, the schedule is simple; i.e. Monday - analysis, which can involve quite a bit of writing at the upper skill levels and writing, Tuesday - word copia and writing, Wednesday - sentence copia and writing, Thursday - paragraph copia and writing, Friday - writing if the model is long and complex.

 

I do not have CW Aesop, but this is a good path for the progym: CC Fable until the student is comfortable with the work and has covered the figures of description, CC Narrative until the student is comfortable and covered the figures of description as well as retelling the story of a different point of view, and then into CW Homer. If your student can parse and diagram before starting Homer, most of the grammar work will be a review. An older student can work through CW Homer in a month using A/H-in-a-Month if you can spend several hours per day on it. Otherwise, it may take a few months.

 

Neither CC or CW have scripted lessons like WWS, so if you need a script for providing input on your student's writing, you may be more comfortable with WWS.

Edited November 22, 2011 by 1Togo

[Tress]

1togo,

 

how dependend is CW Homer on the selected models? And how easy/difficult would it be to keep CW Homer's structure and use other models? I'm thinking of doing it in Dutch. :bigear:

[1Togo]

After you understand Homer's teaching pattern, you can use it with any models of your choice. If your children are bi-lingual, that would work.

[Roxy Roller]

I think I am beginning to understand the differences/similarities between the two. Thank you for the clarifications, and I am :bigear: if anyone has anything else to add.

[Create Your Ritual]

I just emailed you a few things Roxanne.

[Tress]

After you understand Homer's teaching pattern, you can use it with any models of your choice. If your children are bi-lingual, that would work.

 

Thanks. Good to hear that I can substitute models of my choice!

 

No, my kids are not bilingual and neither am I :tongue_smilie:. I wish we were. Sigh. Things would be much easier then. I really need some hand holding while teaching writing and I like what I see from Classical Writing, too bad I can't use it as is. I'm using CW Aesop now and I use Dutch versions of Aesop's fables. Reworking CW Aesop in Dutch was quiet easy, but I'm nervous about the higher levels.

[Create Your Ritual]

Deanna of Narrow Gate Academy just provided new information about what the Homer Core provides in case anyone is interested to learn how you might use just Homer Core - the link is below.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3348505#post3348505

[Homemama2]

Deanna of Narrow Gate Academy just provided new information about what the Homer Core provides in case anyone is interested to learn how you might use just Homer Core - the link is below

 

Thank you for the link!!

[Snickerdoodle]

Ugh!

I'm taking another look at this. We've done Aesop and then I thought it would be too much writing for my(pencil-phobic) son to move into Homer. We've been doing writing across the curriculum SWB style which has been working well. I really like the idea of having writing melt into the curriculum.

 

Well, we've completed two weeks now in Homer and I have to say I'm very pleased. He was able to crank out a draft and an edited rewrite in cursive without melting down. Dare I say it was done with a bit of joy?

 

I've been reading and re-reading the core every night now even though I wouldn't dare do it without IG and student text. It's starting to make sense.

 

Writing is the one subject I'm a bit afraid to teach.

[Create Your Ritual]

Snickerdoodle, are you using the Older Beginners or the Homer A & B?

[Snickerdoodle]

Homer A

[siloam]

As for comparing and contrasting CW & WWS, I can try to help (the operative word being "try" ;) ). I finally caved in and downloaded the WWS sample; we've been doing a few weeks of this program and I've flipped through it. The general difference I find is that CW's (and I'm sure CC, as well) main focus appears to be on the language the student is using and not just the format. My dd is in Homer B and does many exercises on one sentence only, practicing rewriting it in a myriad of different ways, using many forms of grammar and content. CW really gives the student skills to handle words and language and not be intimidated by them. It helps the student work towards writing with fluidity and beauty. I'm not saying that one doesn't or can't work on language use when using WWS, but it is intentionally and consistently worked on when using CW. Writing With Style, of course, hasn't been released/written yet so perhaps it will focus on language use more at that level but, for now, CW is, IMO, superior in that area.

I agree with this evaluation, though I haven't done WWS just looked at the samples.

 

I also plan to do both. I have my kids do WWE 1 and 2 as a whole with the workbooks. WWE 3 and 4 skills I finish more quickly with our own material. Generally I have my kids start CW Aesop while doing WWE 3 and 4 skills. Then they do Homer and Beginning Poetry. My 8th grader is finish up Diogenes Maxim in the next few months and I will probably have her quickly go through WWS before starting the second level of Diogenes.

 

CW Homer is the hardest level to get through, because there is just a lot of work. They have the child do things till it becomes automatic. That requires a lot of repetition. Diogenes is written to the child and takes less time to complete, but I do like the more simple and to the point explanations in WWS, so I think my dd would benefit from getting to the heart of the issue quickly. WWS is a lighter schedule than she is used to so I will have her do it quickly then we will continue with CW. Long term we will probably continue to visit WWS as a break between CW levels, as long as I see something I think she would benefit from.

 

Heather

[TC5]

I know this is a bit of an old thread, but I'm hoping some are still paying attention to it, as I'm seeing great info here. I came here looking to see whether I should switch my 11yo son from WWS to CW (and if so, which level). Now I'm wanting to do both! I just don't know how we'll fit it in. Does WWS really offer skills not found in CW?

 

My oldest son did WWE1-4 in his 4th-grade year, and last year he did just WTM-style writing and Writing Strands 3. It's all been too easy (I realize now I should have used a higher level of WS), and he is a strong writer. Now with WWS, though I love the idea and all it teaches, his writing is not as good as it was last year! Too much focus on the mechanics and organization and just getting the assignment done. He is very creative and prefers less structure in every subject, but he does well with science and history narratives. I've started having him read WWS and use those skills to write about whatever we're studying in history or science, and that's helped. In one assignment a few weeks ago, he was supposed to choose events from a list to write about someone (Alexander the Great, I believe) and then form the list into a narrative. Instead, he read about someone we'd been studying in history, he wrote a 2-level outline (I'd taught him only 1-level outlines), and then he wrote about the man from his outline. His writing in that was much better than it had been in previous assignments. If there were a second level of WWS now, that might be my answer because using a program written for 5th grade seems to be holding him back. But as there isn't, I'm looking for something else at a higher level.

 

From what I've seen online, I think CW would be more challenging, though he could do it. I just don't know about doing both CW and WWS. If WWS is easy, could my son do Homer A and B this year, too, and then Diogenes next year? Or should I use the Older Beginners level?

 

(I like Heather's idea of integrating WWE/WWS with CW. WWE is VERY gentle. Is CW Aesop? My second son is writing-phobic. He's doing well with WWE 3 and his history and science narrations (which I usually still write). Would CW Aesop be a big shock?)

 

In reality, I can't fit in much more, but because WWS is so independent and my son wants something more challenging, we could switch to CW Homer and possibly keep WWS, too. I'm not concerned about my ability to teach CW now that I've looked at it a little bit. I'm just struggling with time management in general with a baby who still nurses every 2 hours night and day and won't eat solids (yes I should be asleep right now), as well as the other boys. But I owe it to my oldest to help him with his writing. He's considering writing as a career because he loves it so much, but he's not loving WWS.

 

Sorry if this is less coherent than it ought to be. Ideas? (Oh, and my plan is to stick with Vocab. from Classical Roots, which takes very little time, no spelling program, and continue with Rod and Staff 6, which doesn't take much time.)

Edited January 26, 2012 by Teonei
a little more info

[1Togo]

Fwiw, I don't see any reason to do both. If you like WWS, I would stay with it. If you use the skills from WWS to write across the curriculum, why would you need to add anything to it? I see that a few mothers are mixing other curriculum with WWS, and I am curious about why they are doing this. What is missing from WWS? Isn't it a full curriculum?

 

We are using CW Homer and will be moving on from it in a week or so. I don't add anything to it because our CW Homer work takes 45 to 60 minutes. Since we do some other writing with history, that's enough writing. Like WWS, CW is a full curriculum. Also, I see from your siggy that you are studying Latin. If you decide to use CW, you will not need a additional vocabulary curriculum because CW includes vocabulary lessons. Those lessons plus Latin will be enough for vocabulary.

Edited January 26, 2012 by 1Togo

[TC5]

Thanks for the response, 1Togo. I was originally thinking of switching from WWS to CW and still am considering that. I am glad to hear you don't see the need to do both. But to make WWS more challenging for my son requires a lot of my time. We've also been skipping things and rearranging lessons to make them correspond with other things we're studying. I understand CW will require a lot of my time, too, but is that for me to tailor-make assignments for his level or just to teach what is already there? I need to do more research, obviously, to see what will be best for my son. Again, thank you for replying.

[1Togo]

We are using the CW A/H-in-Month tutorial since dd is in high school and can handle the workload. Before beginning CW Aesop/Homer, we had experience with CC Fable and Narrative, so the actual writing is not difficult. However, the upper level analysis is challenging, and the copia work is thorough. Those are the reasons I decided to begin with A/H. For your son's age, I would use CW Homer for Older Beginners and go through the lessons as it is written. When you finish OB, go through Beginning Poetry for Older Beginners. You won't need to do any planning with CW if you use the workbooks, but you will need to be present - at first, to teach and later, to guide. 45 minutes to 60 minutes of your direct involvment is realistic.

[Cleopatra]

Teonei, Sorry I don't have much time at the moment, but I'll try to give you a quick answer. It sounds like CW would be perfect for your older son. CW really works at crafting the student's writing as well as teaching the mechanics. I wouldn't say that WWS teaches skills that CW doesn't ...... it's more like they teach them in a different manner and perhaps with more baby steps than CW (caveat: I've only viewed to Ch. 19 in WWS). What I like about CW (excuse me for sounding like a broken record :D) is that it is flexible ..... you can condense lessons, skip lessons or parts of lessons, draw the lessons out longer, all based on the needs of the student. For me, it is actually easier to use. It also allows the student to be much more creative within a given format, which I'm sure your older son would enjoy.

 

As for your second son, I would either continue with WWE, which is working well for him, or you could try switching to Aesop. We didn't find Aesop that difficult ----- the big jump was moving to Homer ----- so I think he would be fine with it.

 

Each level of Homer takes 4 lessons to work on 1 skill. If you condense these (and even if you don't) there is room during the year for a break to do something different. If you wanted to incorporate WWS, you could do that during the break, or add in CW Poetry as 1Togo mentioned. You could also read through WWS yourself and try to incorporation into CW any skills you find that you think might be beneficial, but that would take some time and it sounds like you don't have too much of it. :001_smile:

 

In any case, best wishes for whatever you choose!

[TC5]

You won't need to do any planning with CW if you use the workbooks, but you will need to be present - at first, to teach and later, to guide. 45 minutes to 60 minutes of your direct involvment is realistic.

 

I would love to do this, if I can find a way. Is this 5 days/week?

[TC5]

Teonei, Sorry I don't have much time at the moment, but I'll try to give you a quick answer. It sounds like CW would be perfect for your older son. CW really works at crafting the student's writing as well as teaching the mechanics. I wouldn't say that WWS teaches skills that CW doesn't ...... it's more like they teach them in a different manner and perhaps with more baby steps than CW (caveat: I've only viewed to Ch. 19 in WWS). What I like about CW (excuse me for sounding like a broken record :D) is that it is flexible ..... you can condense lessons, skip lessons or parts of lessons, draw the lessons out longer, all based on the needs of the student. For me, it is actually easier to use. It also allows the student to be much more creative within a given format, which I'm sure your older son would enjoy.

 

 

Thank you so much for your insight, Cleopatra! The details you provided are very helpful for me to decide. I'm going to take a close look at WWS and CW this week.

 

Would you agree with 1Togo that A/H for Older Beginners would be a good place for my older son to start?

[1Togo]

The Homer core is set up for four days of Analysis & Imitation Work; i.e. Day 1 - Reading and Understanding Narratives, Day 2 - Words, Day 3 - Sentences, and Day 4 - Paragraphs. On Day 2, the student begins a writing project. However, as Cleopatra mentioned, CW is flexible. I don't know how the Older Beginners guide is set up, but A/H-in-a-Month has a workbook with a list of assignments. I schedule the work as it fits our schedule. It seems that we have long writing days Monday - Thursday, and Friday is usually a catch up or edit day. As we have worked with the Homer core, I have been able to identify which skills dd needs to practice and which skills she has mastered. We're moving on, but once per quarter, we will go through a complete narrative routine. I think I am becoming a broken record about CW as well.

Edited January 29, 2012 by 1Togo

[TC5]

I think I am becoming a broken record about CW as well.

 

Thank you 1Togo and Cleopatra for repeating yourselves. This is taking some time to sink in here, and I appreciate your hand-holding. We are only through 10 weeks of WWS, as we started our new year in November, so I don't feel like it's too late to make some big changes if I hurry.

[Cleopatra]

Thank you so much for your insight, Cleopatra! The details you provided are very helpful for me to decide. I'm going to take a close look at WWS and CW this week.

 

Would you agree with 1Togo that A/H for Older Beginners would be a good place for my older son to start?

 

Sorry ...... this thread got lost for me ...... for some reason I wasn't getting notifications ..... :tongue_smilie:

 

It sounds like your son is a good writer so you could certainly start with the Older Beginners. Remember that the only thing different with Older Beginners is the student workbook; instead of taking 4 lessons for each skill, it takes 2. You still use the same core as you would for Homer A & B, so you are still able to stretch out the length of time you spend on a skill or decrease it, at will.

 

Best wishes from another "broken-record"! :D

[siloam]

I would love to do this, if I can find a way. Is this 5 days/week?

 

We do Aesop and Homer 4 days a week, but 5 days would be fine. I have to alternate with Poetry because back to back Homer weeks in 4 days tends to get to be a bit much.

 

I agree that WWS is not needed. I might use it because I approaches things a bit differently....more simply. I will look at it again later, but for now my oldest is continuing with the next level of Diogenes.

 

Heather

[TC5]

It sounds like your son is a good writer so you could certainly start with the Older Beginners. Remember that the only thing different with Older Beginners is the student workbook; instead of taking 4 lessons for each skill, it takes 2. You still use the same core as you would for Homer A & B, so you are still able to stretch out the length of time you spend on a skill or decrease it, at will.

 

This is good to know. So if I wanted to speed things up, I could just do half the lessons. In the interest of not wasting money, I think I'd want the regular IG and student book to reuse with younger siblings who won't need the older beginners route.

 

After using WWE, does a student still need to go through Aesop? Or could they jump into Homer? How about CC -- can Fable replace Aesop? (or Fable and Narrative)

 

Thanks.

[TC5]

We do Aesop and Homer 4 days a week, but 5 days would be fine. I have to alternate with Poetry because back to back Homer weeks in 4 days tends to get to be a bit much.

 

So you do 4 days of Homer one week and the next week 4 days of Poetry?

[Cleopatra]

This is good to know. So if I wanted to speed things up, I could just do half the lessons. In the interest of not wasting money, I think I'd want the regular IG and student book to reuse with younger siblings who won't need the older beginners route.

 

After using WWE, does a student still need to go through Aesop? Or could they jump into Homer? How about CC -- can Fable replace Aesop? (or Fable and Narrative)

 

Thanks.

 

If the student has gone through all of WWE I would say you could move straight to Homer. When my dd used Aesop, I worked mostly with synonym substitution through building vocabulary. I found that was a huge help in getting her to rewrite the narrative in her own words. We didn't do the spelling and used the grammar exercises only when I felt they were beneficial. I find Aesop moves slowly through the grammar concepts and then does a big jump in Homer.

 

I like CC Fable in that it introduces a few of the Homer skills at a level that is easy for a younger child to comprehend. I like its 18 figures of description, HOWEVER, I do not like the way it has the child apply these 18 figures which is in a formulaic way that often (IMO) detracts from the writing. They also tell you to do certain things a certain way in Fable and then get them doing the same thing a completely opposite way in Narrative, which I find confusing, but otherwise it's a good program. If you were to choose Fable for your younger I'd do CC-Fable and then move into Homer. IMO there is no need to do CC-Narrative and then go to Homer. I know some have done it this way but it seems like overkill to me.

[TC5]

If the student has gone through all of WWE I would say you could move straight to Homer. When my dd used Aesop, I worked mostly with synonym substitution through building vocabulary. I found that was a huge help in getting her to rewrite the narrative in her own words. We didn't do the spelling and used the grammar exercises only when I felt they were beneficial. I find Aesop moves slowly through the grammar concepts and then does a big jump in Homer.

 

I like CC Fable in that it introduces a few of the Homer skills at a level that is easy for a younger child to comprehend. I like its 18 figures of description, HOWEVER, I do not like the way it has the child apply these 18 figures which is in a formulaic way that often (IMO) detracts from the writing. They also tell you to do certain things a certain way in Fable and then get them doing the same thing a completely opposite way in Narrative, which I find confusing, but otherwise it's a good program. If you were to choose Fable for your younger I'd do CC-Fable and then move into Homer. IMO there is no need to do CC-Narrative and then go to Homer. I know some have done it this way but it seems like overkill to me.

 

Excellent. This is just what I needed to know. I was thinking Narrative and Homer were at the same level of the progym so wondered why we'd need both. I am happy to hear all 18 figures are in Fable itself. And I'll watch for that formulaic writing.

 

One more thing... is there a lot of instruction for how to use the figures of description? There doesn't appear to be much in the sample lesson online for Fable. Is there more in other lessons? The figures of description are online with some examples of what they are, but I assume there is more in CC?

 

Thanks!

[1Togo]

Fwiw, we didn't see any difference in the way figures of description were taught in Fable and Narrative. The teacher manuals give examples of the figures of description for each lesson, including where they can be used in the lesson narrative. Your student can either follow the example or do something different. Dd used them as creatively as she was able or saw fit. Since the target audience for Fable is 4th and 5th grades students, the figures of description taught in it are less complex than those taught in Narrative. A strong student can use the figures of description to change the focus and tone of each narrative retelling. Another student might just follow the examples as taught by their teacher.

[TC5]

Fwiw, we didn't see any difference in the way figures of description were taught in Fable and Narrative. The teacher manuals give examples of the figures of description for each lesson, including where they can be used in the lesson narrative. Your student can either follow the example or do something different. Dd used them as creatively as she was able or saw fit. Since the target audience for Fable is 4th and 5th grades students, the figures of description taught in it are less complex than those taught in Narrative. A strong student can use the figures of description to change the focus and tone of each narrative retelling. Another student might just follow the examples as taught by their teacher.

 

I just PM'd you before I saw this. I was wondering whether you'd skip Narrative to go on to Homer. Without Narrative, will it be difficult for a student to go beyond the very basic use of the figures of description?

[siloam]

So you do 4 days of Homer one week and the next week 4 days of Poetry?

 

At first you have to do 8 weeks of Homer straight, but that is not too difficult because it starts off light. By week 8 it is getting to be a bit much for them and from there on out that is exactly what we do. My 2nd dd did week 9 of Homer last week and will do week 2 of poetry this week.

 

Heather

[siloam]

I just PM'd you before I saw this. I was wondering whether you'd skip Narrative to go on to Homer. Without Narrative, will it be difficult for a student to go beyond the very basic use of the figures of description?

 

CW doesn't use this terminology, so I am not sure what you are asking. You do work on adding descriptive detail. The emphasis is on synonym work in Aesop, which is further flushed out in Homer.

 

If you are talking simile, metaphor and such that is covered...either in Homer or in Beginning Poetry...can't remember which right now. But it is not in Aesop.

 

Heather

[1Togo]

CW does not teach figures of description. They are only taught in CC Fable and Narrative, and CC uses them in other levels as well.

[Snickerdoodle]

We are now doing week 10 of Homer and my son is finding it difficult to get it done in 4 days. We are now doing 4 days of the analysis and imitation work and 2-3 days of writing.

[Roxy Roller]

We started CC Fable(MP's version) after Christmas and we are just finishing Lesson 4. My DD is finally enjoying writing.

 

My plan is to go up to Lesson 8 or 9 of Fable, before switching to CC Narrative. We will do 8 or 9 lessons from it before we switch to CW A/H for Older Beginners in the fall. My plan is to go back and do a lesson in CC Fable and CC Narrative every semester for the next few years, while we work on CW. It will be a nice break and a refresher as well.

 

I, too, have wondered whether or not I should skip CC Narrative and just move on to doing Homer A this spring, but we are really enjoying CC and I think that switching to CW at this point might be counterproductive. We will start CW in the fall. This will also give me enough time to study my CW books so that I am sufficiently prepared to teach it.

[1Togo]

Roxy,

 

Your plan sounds great. I am glad to hear the work is going well.

 

1togo

Edited January 30, 2012 by 1Togo

[Cleopatra]

Excellent. This is just what I needed to know. I was thinking Narrative and Homer were at the same level of the progym so wondered why we'd need both. I am happy to hear all 18 figures are in Fable itself. And I'll watch for that formulaic writing.

 

One more thing... is there a lot of instruction for how to use the figures of description? There doesn't appear to be much in the sample lesson online for Fable. Is there more in other lessons? The figures of description are online with some examples of what they are, but I assume there is more in CC?

 

Thanks!

 

I have not seen all of CC Fable but I have seen a good portion of it after having contrasted it with CW through a few friends. I believe the instructions are very clear and, honestly the 18 figures of description are not very difficult. I was able to view the program from some other homeschooling moms who are using it so, unless you have that option, I don't know of anywhere else where you can get better samples. I wouldn't worry though. CC is very straightforward; CW is more of a challenge but it's because it's much "meatier" than CC and also contains spelling, grammar, etc. Your son who loves writing would probably benefit from going straight to Homer A (or Older Beginners) but for your other dc, CC would be a gentle introduction to the progym. If you need any help with "acclimatizing" yourself to Homer you can always pm me, and 1Togo is a good resource as well!

 

Fwiw, we didn't see any difference in the way figures of description were taught in Fable and Narrative. The teacher manuals give examples of the figures of description for each lesson, including where they can be used in the lesson narrative. Your student can either follow the example or do something different. Dd used them as creatively as she was able or saw fit. Since the target audience for Fable is 4th and 5th grades students, the figures of description taught in it are less complex than those taught in Narrative. A strong student can use the figures of description to change the focus and tone of each narrative retelling. Another student might just follow the examples as taught by their teacher.

 

1Togo, my issue regarding clarity wasn't with the 18 figures. In teaching procedure #8 they say, "Unlike the Fable stage, students may not change any of the six components of the individual narrative ......" It sounded counter-productive to let a student do something for 1-2 years and then tell them not to do it later on.

 

Roxy's plan sounds like a good plan to me. :001_smile: