Classical Conversations - what subjects does it replace?

[diaperjoys]

Which subjects does CC Foundations actually replace?? Can someone help me with this? I've read lots of threads and browsed their website, but I'm having trouble seeing which parts of CC are supplements, and which parts are complete. For example, this is what my 2nd grader is doing this year - which of these subjects would CC Foundations replace? Or would I need to keep these & CC just reinforces??

 

Math (CLE 2)

Spelling (R&S 3)

History (Veritas Self-Paced)

Writing - (WWE 3)

Latin - (Prima Latina)

Greek - (Alphabet)

English - (R&S 3)

Bible - CLE 3

Art - Mark Kistler

Science - Real Science Odyssey

 

Thank you!

[jcgonczi]

:bigear: I'm interested if anyone has an answer to this.

[Missouri Okie]

I consider it a supplement to almost all of those programs you listed.

 

My family has done CC for 3 years. However, my oldest is only 7. Since he is so young, I rely on CC for most of his science since we do an experiment or science-related activity every week in CC. I supplement CC science at home with related read-alouds.

 

Some people use CC memory work as a spine for history. They use the history sentence as the basis for their studies each week and flesh it out with reading and SOTW (or other) activities.

 

As for Latin, in Cycle 1 (next year's) cycle, they learn the Latin noun declensions, in Cycle 2, they learn Latin verb conjugations and in Cycle 3 (the current cycle) we are learning vocabulary words that correspond to John 1. To me, that is enough Latin for now.

 

You will definitely have to use your own Language Arts/Spelling/Phonics and math programs at home.

[Jim]

We're into our second year with our now 10 yo. Give the ages of your child you'd be in the Foundations group. Each week there's a sentence for history, science, grammar, latin, geography, and math. There is a science experiment each week and in Arts it could be an artist study or playing a tin whistle.

 

We've used it as a suppliment mostly. We'll expand on the history sentence if we have time. I could see using the history portion as a spine but I'd have a different base study in each of the other areas.

 

This year we've added the afternoon Essentials class. There, he does grammar, and that could be stand alone though we've continued with FLL, writing, and math drills. The writing jives with the history cycle so this year we're using American History v1 from IEW. That replaced the IEW course we were working through, though I still find the disks useful for review.

 

The information he learns is a bonus, as is the social aspect. It's the memory training that I'm after and I find his ability to retain information amazing.

 

In that regard, our 4 yo is attending this year and he is also able to memorize the information, history and science sentences in particular. I love it when he recites and points to the parts of the axial skeleton or breaks out in a history sentence.

 

 

Jim

[laughing lioness]

Math (CLE 2)

Spelling (R&S 3)

History (Veritas Self-Paced)

Writing - (WWE 3)

Latin - (Prima Latina)

Greek - (Alphabet)

English - (R&S 3)

Bible - CLE 3

Art - Mark Kistler

Science - Real Science Odyssey

 

Thank you!

 

If you consider memory work a subject, it would replace that. However, that is basically what Foudnations is- memory work. So your child will learn math facts but not how to manipulate them. Same with all of the other subjects. IF you use SOTW CD's along with the history sentences and use the PowerPoint- that might replace history.

IF your group really does a decent 1/2 science and art project then that can replace those subjects. It really depends on the group.

As many others have said, it's supplemental. Unless you choose for it to be your program for school (many people do) with litte supplements. It just depends on how deep and wide your want your kids education to be.

[FlyingMOm]

Which subjects does CC Foundations actually replace?? Can someone help me with this? I've read lots of threads and browsed their website, but I'm having trouble seeing which parts of CC are supplements, and which parts are complete. For example, this is what my 2nd grader is doing this year - which of these subjects would CC Foundations replace? Or would I need to keep these & CC just reinforces??

 

Math (CLE 2)

Spelling (R&S 3)

History (Veritas Self-Paced)

Writing - (WWE 3)

Latin - (Prima Latina)

Greek - (Alphabet)

English - (R&S 3)

Bible - CLE 3

Art - Mark Kistler

Science - Real Science Odyssey

 

Thank you!

 

IMO, it replaces nothing. There is not enough there to constitute a full history program, or science, grammar, etc. It merely supplements those subjects. We recently dropped out of cc- it was to much work and took up to much time for something that was merely a supplement. I was not impressed at all. I am always completely baffled when I hear someone say that they count cc as their history and science for the year. Memorizing 24 history sentences is NOT enough history for an entire year!

[snickelfritz]

IMO, it replaces nothing. There is not enough there to constitute a full history program, or science, grammar, etc. It merely supplements those subjects. We recently dropped out of cc- it was to much work and took up to much time for something that was merely a supplement. I was not impressed at all. I am always completely baffled when I hear someone say that they count cc as their history and science for the year. Memorizing 24 history sentences is NOT enough history for an entire year!

 

:iagree:

 

My dd likes lunch and recess:tongue_smilie:, so we are sticking through the semester before I decide to quit or not. The art and science periods are so short that they are pointless. I am frustrated with it and wish they would try to get fewer subjects done each time and spend a bit more time per subject.

Edited November 14, 2011 by snickelfritz

[Beth in SW WA]

The art and science periods are so short that they are pointless.

 

Wow. Strong statement. I disagree with your assessment.

 

CC is a fun add-on. My dds get tons out of it despite the bite-sized chunks of history, science, geography, Latin, art & music.

 

Dd8's class played Twinkle, Twinkle in perfect unison last week after a few weeks of practice. My girls find nearly all the states and name capitals. They could tell you about random history trivia and tell you the complete time line of world history -- among other things.

 

The opportunity for presentations in front of a class of students is worth its weight in gold.

 

To the OP, just do what you can. CC is what you make it. If your dc loves history, do more history at home. If your dc is a music lover, do more music.

 

Pics of our CC experience :)

[snickelfritz]

Wow. Strong statement. I disagree with your assessment.

 

 

 

I'm off of my I-phone, so I will elaborate on my initial statement. Though, my overall assessment of CC is still just as negative.:tongue_smilie:

 

First, I am doing CC with a 6 year old. And maybe different tutors run class differently. I don't know, since I've only been in our class. I, primarily, joined CC for the group science experiments, the art projects, the social aspect, and the history overview. My daughter already plays Suzuki violin, so she could play those songs by ear within 5 minutes of picking up the instrument. We are working on the note reading aspect at home. I will say that my dd has made a huge improvement in her presentation skills, so that is a plus.

 

#1 It is an expensive "add on." Yes, they hire the tutor. But, I am a full-time helper in the class.....no pay. That's fine, but they advertise the cost as being different from a co-op, because you aren't expected to teach. I don't teach, but I help set-up, assist, listen to verses, clean up after snacks, take the kids to the bathroom, find the right color of crayons, help make sure their hand position on the whistle is right, that they've colored the right state, etc........ I do have time I'm just sitting. The tutor is definitely the one teaching. But, when they say you can't leave.....it's because they have a task for you to do. So, I feel it's a bit misleading to justify the cost by pointing out that the tutor is hired.

 

#2 The tid-bits they do in class don't get fleshed out at all. If you want to organize your school time around it, it could be beneficial. For example, the class spent their "science" time today coloring muscles, a stomach, and bones. It's going on a full-size body, but there was no discussion of what muscles, stomach and bones are. That makes it a motor skills exercise, to me. Not science. I can't think of a science experiment, so far, that was any more fleshed out.

 

#3 Our music today spent an extraordinarily long time today drawing the treble cleff. That's an interesting exercise with 6 years old. While I think it's a good tidbit, I honestly think it's a poor use of time. Get them playing more. Have them clapping out rhythms.

 

#4 The way our timing works (I don't know if all of them are run the same)...We get from about 9:20 ish to 11:45 ish in class (this is my best approximation, because we have to walk downstairs from the big group meeting.) During that time, we review old material, introduce new memory work (Latin, English, math, history sentence, timeline, geography, and science) do a science experiment, do an art project (or music), do (presentations/snack/listen to memory work all concurrently.) It is fast, fast, fast and I just feel like that cutting the number of subjects down and spending a bit more time would be more beneficial.

 

When 6 year olds are saying "adverb" for one of the circulatory system words...I just have to wonder whether you should be glad they know the word adverb or irritated that all of the memory work seems to have no context.

Edited November 14, 2011 by snickelfritz

[squirtymomma]

Wow. Strong statement. I disagree with your assessment.

 

CC is a fun add-on. My dds get tons out of it despite the bite-sized chunks of history, science, geography, Latin, art & music.

 

Dd8's class played Twinkle, Twinkle in perfect unison last week after a few weeks of practice. My girls find nearly all the states and name capitals. They could tell you about random history trivia and tell you the complete time line of world history -- among other things.

 

The opportunity for presentations in front of a class of students is worth its weight in gold.

 

To the OP, just do what you can. CC is what you make it. If your dc loves history, do more history at home. If your dc is a music lover, do more music.

 

Pics of our CC experience :)

 

I think it really depends on the tutor. Some do a great job with pacing the subjects, others don't. I agree with Snicklefritz, in that I wish there was more to the science and fine arts time.

 

For my 4 and 6 year olds, I count CC as science and fine arts (and memory work), but it's not much. To be fair, though, the drawing lessons have been really beneficial to my 6 year old, and have really sparked her interest in drawing.

 

The presentations really are beneficial, I think, and my girls love recess. :lol: It suits our needs for this year, but I'm not sure we'll do it again.

[mrs.m]

#2 The tid-bits they do in class don't get fleshed out at all. If you want to organize your school time around it, it could be beneficial. For example, the class spent their "science" time today coloring muscles, a stomach, and bones. It's going on a full-size body, but there was no discussion of what muscles, stomach and bones are. That makes it a motor skills exercise, to me. Not science. I can't think of a science experiment, so far, that was any more fleshed out.

 

#3 Our music today spent an extraordinarily long time today drawing the treble cleff. That's an interesting exercise with 6 years old. While I think it's a good tidbit, I honestly think it's a poor use of time. Get them playing more. Have them clapping out rhythms.

 

#4 The way our timing works (I don't know if all of them are run the same)...We get from about 9:20 ish to 11:45 ish in class (this is my best approximation, because we have to walk downstairs from the big group meeting.) During that time, we review old material, introduce new memory work (Latin, English, math, history sentence, timeline, geography, and science) do a science experiment, do an art project (or music), do (presentations/snack/listen to memory work all concurrently.) It is fast, fast, fast and I just feel like that cutting the number of subjects down and spending a bit more time would be more beneficial.

 

When 6 year olds are saying "adverb" for one of the circulatory system words...I just have to wonder whether you should be glad they know the word adverb or irritated that all of the memory work seems to have no context.

 

They told me from the beginning that I would need to be in class and that it was not a drop off program. I'm not sure what else I would do with that time since I have to be there anyway, so why not help? I'm counting on the tutor to do something to prepare for class and also to just show-up which may not happen, from my experience, in a co-op situation. Although I haven't been in DS 9's class much because DS 6 is still learning to sit quietly. So it does improve as they get older. The classes need less help.

 

You need to talk with your director and tutor because there is no reason that the tutor can't read out of the "My Body Book" while they are coloring. (at least that is what my DS6's tutor does.) They aren't really supposed to teach but if there is time to slip in bits of information then our tutor will do it.

 

The rest of the teaching should be done by the parents at home. They do have a very limited time to pack in all the information. But to really decompress that information requires the parent doing it at home. I personally don't because I haven't noticed my DSs mixing up an adverb with a body part. I teach bits and pieces that they are interested in but it doesn't fit the sequence that we are studying. I plan to change that next year and build something around CC.

 

Other than the wishing for more time, our class time experience is very different from what you have described. And I'm certain that can vary community to community.

 

We don't have "recess" in our community. :confused: Do they take a break in the middle?

 

ETA: most of the lack of time changes in the upper grade levels (judging from my 9yo vs 6yo classes). They seem to get through things such as art and science much faster. Where as it seems the younger classes are waiting because the kids just need more help and the fine motor skills hold them back.

Edited November 14, 2011 by jannylynn

[Beth in SW WA]

 

We don't have "recess" in our community. :confused: Do they take a break in the middle?

 

Hmmmm.... We have 'recess' after lunch for 30 min.

 

I don't help much in class. Our tutors are beyond amazing. I do the coffee run at 10 AM and help clean up science. I bounce back & forth btw my dds' presentations so I can watch.

 

Our CC is top-notch. These parents are cream of the crop classical homeschool pros. I'm in awe. :)

[mrs.m]

Hmmmm.... We have 'recess' after lunch for 30 min.

 

I don't help much in class. Our tutors are beyond amazing. I do the coffee run at 10 AM and help clean up science. I bounce back & forth btw my dds' presentations so I can watch.

 

Our CC is top-notch. These parents are cream of the crop classical homeschool pros. I'm in awe. :)

 

We do have "recess" then. I didn't think of it that way and we don't call it that. ;) A few families go home before lunch.

 

Our CC is wonderful too!

[snickelfritz]

They told me from the beginning that I would need to be in class and that it was not a drop off program. I'm not sure what else I would do with that time since I have to be there anyway, so why not help? I'm counting on the tutor to do something to prepare for class and also to just show-up which may not happen, from my experience, in a co-op situation. Although I haven't been in DS 9's class much because DS 6 is still learning to sit quietly. So it does improve as they get older. The classes need less help.

 

(snip)

 

The rest of the teaching should be done by the parents at home. They do have a very limited time to pack in all the information. But to really decompress that information requires the parent doing it at home. I personally don't because I haven't noticed my DSs mixing up an adverb with a body part. I teach bits and pieces that they are interested in but it doesn't fit the sequence that we are studying. I plan to change that next year and build something back.

 

Ok....I snipped, but just trying to address a few things....not change the meaning...:001_smile:

 

I don't mind helping. I knew I would have to stay. They made it sound like it was to help with discipline of your child. It's hard to explain why the cost of the program is an irritation, when for me, it is functioning like a normal, low-cost co-op is. Probably tied in to how ineffective it is for me.

 

And I agree about fleshing it out at home. That is what I do. The OP asked what subjects it REPLACED. Laughing Lioness had the correct answer....memory work. Everything else requires significant coverage by another program or by library books (which is what I do.)

 

I accidentally cut out your comment about young children. THIS is my biggest beef. Why not change the younger program just a little to make it more developmentally appropriate? Maybe cut out a few of the subjects to allow for 10 bathroom breaks, slow hands, wandering attention spans, more help needed. If a 6 year old is super motivated to do memory master and is that advanced, bump them up to the next age group but let the rest concentrate on fewer topics and do them well.

[cjbeach]

We have a wonderful group. I couldn't be happier, an all around great experience. Our tutors and director are top-notch. It's a lot of work with the presentations prep x 3 kiddos, but my kids have reaped the benefits of it. (And to be honest, I really enjoy CC *as much* as my kids. I love my interaction with parents I have come to call friends.)

 

For us, it replaces our Memory Work. I was using Living Memory so this is a really nice complement to that.

 

We use the History as our spine ... instead of using one text I use that week's history resources for our read alouds for the week. We're enjoying it. Right now we're using SOTW 3 and 4 (yay) and I do check out books from the library that are suggested on the resource list for the week. I think we're actually doing MORE history this way--- consistently. We memorize the work, read about it in the SOTW text, and read the suggested living books. A blogger who writes One Half Hundred Acre woods has been fantastic for linking up each week to corresponding videos on that week's subject as well. I'm really comfortable with what we have done in History using CC. But I have totally run with the resources. Our history does not seem as monotonous this year, and I'm really not sure why. We always used living books in addition to text, but the kids are the ones who have said they like it more.

 

Geography -- I feel like we've made some headway in Geography this year because of CC (U.S. only). WE already had memorized states/capitals but other than using Shepphard Software to find the states, my kids still were kind of fuzzy on the US Geography. I feel much better about it now.

 

Science... eh. I flesh out what we've learned that week but not to the extent that I flesh out History. I'm using Ellen McHenry's The Elements too.

 

ETA - Beth and Lisa (as posted in this thread) are both my personal homeschool gurus (I haunt their blogs constantly). I think much of our success in CC this year can be attributed to their blogs detailing their experiences with CC. I really had a good understanding of what it would provide, and what I would need to do, because of their blogs.

Edited November 15, 2011 by cjbeach

[Karis]

Memory Work

Presentations

Socialization/ Positive peer interaction

Fun explorations - nothing deep

 

** I agree about the younger ones. Have seen a couple of great tutors who make it work, though. (But that's because they are doing more and investing more of their own creativity. They tweak to meet the needs of the children in their group.)

 

 

It's an add on.

If anybody tells you differently, they are delusional.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Karis

[Mommyof4ks]

We have not dropped any subject, but CC organizes the memory work that I have wanted to do for years. I had no idea what to memorize other than poems and speeches. The timeline is a wonderful thing for our family, because it allows us some points of reference when we study something, so we can figure out what else was going on in the world during that time. The new timeline is rumored to have Eastern history in it too, and I really hope that is true.

 

My kids have all gained confidence in public speaking through presentations and a love for instruments though the tin whistle. My middle child never enjoyed music classes until he got to play the tin whistle, and now he wants to learn to play the piano.

 

I guess the best way I can describe it for my family is a jumping off point. We have always loved science, and we do our own thing there, but history and Latin in CC give us a place to explore more deeply. English is grouped well, and it reinforces what we have learned at home.

 

CC is not for everyone, but it has been great for our family!

[lauracolumbus]

Ok....I snipped, but just trying to address a few things....not change the meaning...:001_smile:

 

I don't mind helping. I knew I would have to stay. They made it sound like it was to help with discipline of your child. It's hard to explain why the cost of the program is an irritation, when for me, it is functioning like a normal, low-cost co-op is. Probably tied in to how ineffective it is for me.

 

And I agree about fleshing it out at home. That is what I do. The OP asked what subjects it REPLACED. Laughing Lioness had the correct answer....memory work. Everything else requires significant coverage by another program or by library books (which is what I do.)

 

I accidentally cut out your comment about young children. THIS is my biggest beef. Why not change the younger program just a little to make it more developmentally appropriate? Maybe cut out a few of the subjects to allow for 10 bathroom breaks, slow hands, wandering attention spans, more help needed. If a 6 year old is super motivated to do memory master and is that advanced, bump them up to the next age group but let the rest concentrate on fewer topics and do them well.

 

I think these are legitimate complaints, and we loved CC. It is an expensive program. I had 3 and w/all the add ons it was about $1100 if I remember correctly. I, too, was a bit miffed at all the helping out b/c I was an assistant in the class. And then we had nursery duty and clean up duty, gym patrol, etc.

 

I did tutor the following year and came to love that. And was incredibly grateful for all the parental help--especially w/geography, art and science.

 

We skipped art and did minimal science when we did CC. Probably should have done more science.

 

With the snippets (history, science) it's becoming a meatier program. For a young child you could probably add slightly to history and call it a day after going over the snippets and the timeline cards.

 

I also agree it's a bit much for a 4 and 5 year old. 6 is where it starts to click (the age group I tutored last year). Several were memory masters (incl. my dd).

 

I am astonished by how helpful it has been with both Latin and English. My ds and dd are doing Wheelock's (did Henle last year) and they still rely on their CC chants.

 

So, while it might not replace a whole subject, I think it can replace a day within a subject if you match your curricula to CC. We didn't. I only used it as an add on and it was still well worth it. In fact we're doing it at home this year.

 

Laura

[grace'smom]

Ok....

Why not change the younger program just a little to make it more developmentally appropriate? Maybe cut out a few of the subjects to allow for 10 bathroom breaks, slow hands, wandering attention spans, more help needed. If a 6 year old is super motivated to do memory master and is that advanced, bump them up to the next age group but let the rest concentrate on fewer topics and do them well.

 

:iagree: My daughter says she wishes she only had to memorize 3 things per week, and that would be enough for her. I think that's more appropriate for her age as well. I know it's sad to think of letting go of some of the subjects, but I think it would help the younger children have a more developmentally appropriate curriculum.

 

One thing I would say that might help you- talk to your tutor. I let mine know that Grace was having a hard time with the information. Our tutor was very understanding, so we've been doing memory work for 15 minutes a day and she just gets what she gets and that is fine. We've decided to skip the stuff that makes no sense to her.

 

This is a recent decision so I can't say how it will fly yet, but I've got to do something or we're going to end up quitting before the year is out. Neither my daughter nor I will be able to continue at the current pace. I've coached my daughter in how to say "I don't know that answer, can I have some help?" This week it went very well. We'll see how it goes... I'm dreading the science next semester. I'm just not sure my daughter is going to be at all interested in memorizing the elements, LOL.

[mrs.m]

If you stay in the program then they will do all this memory work again in 3 yrs (tin whistle and math are the same each year). I think that's the reason that they don't vary the memory work by age level. I don't push my 6yo very hard either. Our goal is not Memory Master at this age. He really loves the memory work but the skip counting and geography are absolutely impossible for him. So he picks up whatever he can and I rest in the fact that when he does this again at 9, he'll have it down. His 9yo brother is doing great and it's his first time through!

[Woodland_Mom]

What subjects do Classical Conversations-Foundations replace? The short answer: None. J Foundations is primarily a memory work program, but they also take time for science experiments/projects, fine arts exposure, and oral presentations.

That said . . . The answer to your question, probably depends on the age of the family’s children and the season of life the homeschool family is in. I know many families who have bright, well-rounded children who have used CC as the centerpiece of their homeschool: Foundations for the young ones. Add your own reading/phonics and math. Then when students reach 4th grade, begin using Essentials (CC's grammar & writing program). (We love science and history too much to do that!) Some families, especially those with young children, simply review their memory work each day, spend time with good books & learning to read, and complete a daily math lesson. School gets done. The young kids learn how to read, they get exposed to the grammar of subjects of all kinds, and they learn math. They also get the benefit of hands on art, science and presentations along with some fun social time once a week at CC. -This is a good routine for many because those messy, hands-on things are oftentimes the first thing to slip off of the to-do list.

We are in our 5th year of Classical Conversations, and my boys are 9 and 11. We have the time to do lots more than just memory work, math and reading. For us, CC does not replace any subject. I have a full schedule of subjects we do at home, but Foundations helps ensure that my kids complete a well-rounded memory work program--one they enjoy doing because they get to do it alongside friends! In addition, my kids get a little fine arts exposure (something I don’t I don't always get to at home). I would not trade the valuable experience of the weekly presentations in front of their peers. CC gives us a day out with other like-minded Christian homeschoolers, and we’re thankful for that. Other families may not add as much as we do, but many decide to add complimentary reading resources to topics CC is covering, go on field trips, or study another subject(s) of great interest.

The purpose of Foundations is not to teach children about a subject, but to

to expose students to a wide variety of vocabulary, events, people, and lists of information, with the goal of memorizing/mastering the information. As the kids enter the logic phase, they begin a deeper understanding and investigation of subjects, topics and concepts. Foundations tutors are not tasked to *teach* concepts to their classes, but are trained to help model various learning/memorization/recitation skills so that parents can do the same things with their children at home. The hope is that deeper, more meaningful learning will take place at home once the facts are absorbed into their heads. This is exactly what we've experienced. Without question, my kids have learned the grammar of many things. Each year we complete a foundation of memory work at Classical Conversations and we build upon it a home.

[Beth in SW WA]

 

ETA - Beth and Lisa (as posted in this thread) are both my personal homeschool gurus (I haunt their blogs constantly). I think much of our success in CC this year can be attributed to their blogs detailing their experiences with CC. I really had a good understanding of what it would provide, and what I would need to do, because of their blogs.

 

So glad to help. :)

[Woodland_Mom]

"Hmmmm.... We have 'recess' after lunch for 30 min.

 

I don't help much in class. Our tutors are beyond amazing. I do the coffee run at 10 AM and help clean up science. I bounce back & forth btw my dds' presentations so I can watch.

Our CC is top-notch. These parents are cream of the crop classical homeschool pros. I'm in awe." :)

 

I echo these sentiments about my campus, too! In fact, I thought you were talking about my campus! :lol::lol:

Edited November 15, 2011 by Pylegang