S/O Saxon level for logic stagers - some ?s

[Hedgehog]

Can I just say at the start that the thread itself didn't made me feel bad. But it has highlighted an area I have been concerned about, and has, in some ways, confirmed my concerns. So I would like your opinions about this, and any ideas you may have if you feel there is something I can/should do.

 

Rabbit has just turned 12, and has 7 more years of school by UK standards. Pooh has just turned 10, and has 9 more years of school. They are both working through Saxon 6/5.

 

Rabbit works entirely independently, and always get over 80% for every lesson or test - and oftentimes over 90%. The only thing I ever do with her is to work through her corrections, if after the first try she still has not understood where she went wrong. I wouldn't say that Math was Rabbit's forte or something she really enjoys, but she understands Saxon well. We tried a bit of Singapore a couple months back and it really threw her.

 

Pooh needs a little more hand-holding - I read the lesson through with her, including the Mental Math section at the beginning. Once we have gone over the lesson concepts, she then does the written work alone. She rarely gets less than 80% and often more than 90%. I would say that she is a natural for Math, and seems to "get" the concepts very easily. She's also very good at logic.

 

So here are my questions.

 

It seems to me that on the previous thread, many kids are at least 2 levels above where Rabbit is (which in itself I might have misjudged, in which case please correct me).

Is Rabbit behind, or are those kids much advanced?

 

If she is behind, what do you think I could do about it?

 

Also, is Pooh doing alright?

 

(Math already seems to take up a lot of our time; I really don't think we can fit another Math program into our already tight schedule, combined with the fact that I have Chronic Fatigue, and recently some additional health problems which are going to require some trips to the hospital in the next few months.)

 

Thank you if you've kept reading.. I will appreciate any thoughts you can throw at me..

[KarenNC]

Your 12 yo would be in 6th grade in the US, the younger in 4th grade, if I read this correctly (based on this website http://homepages.tesco.net/~littlebears/grades.htm). So your year 7 is our 6th grade, which may make it sound like the US kids are more advanced. As I understand it, 6/5 is for an advanced 5th grader or standard 6th grader (US levels), so it sounds like the older one is just fine and the younger one advanced.

 

My daughter is 11 and doing 7/6, but she is also a 6th grader. She's on the very youngest end of 6th grade because her birthdate falls only a couple of weeks before the cut-off here. She tests somewhat above grade level in math. Her progression will be pre-algebra next year, then algebra I in 8th grade. It's not uncommon for kids to be doing pre-algebra in 8th grade, algebra I in 9th grade, at least it didn't use to be ;).

Edited October 17, 2011 by KarenNC

[Melanie]

Pooh is not behind. Rabbit is advanced. If I were you, I wouldn't change a thing. :001_smile:

[Hedgehog]

Thanks, Karen and Melanie.

 

So no-one thinks Rabbit is behind??

[Karen in CO]

Thanks, Karen and Melanie.

 

So no-one thinks Rabbit is behind??

 

Count it out to see how much math she will have had when she is finished with school if she keeps on this path. On a standard US math plan: 6/5, 7/6, 8/7 or Pre-Alg, Alg1, Geometry, Alg2, Pre-Calc, Calc... What is the typical math progression in the UK? With 7 years left and by US standards, I think Rabbit is fine.

[coffeegal]

So here are my questions.

 

It seems to me that on the previous thread, many kids are at least 2 levels above where Rabbit is (which in itself I might have misjudged, in which case please correct me).

Is Rabbit behind, or are those kids much advanced? Combination. Many 'regular' children do 76 in 6th grade. My dd (12) is doing 65 and I consider her slightly behind. BUT like your dd she's doing well in 65. I have a son who's gifted in math, and at our slow rate will be doing 87 in 6th grade. He'll be slightly ahead. :001_smile:

 

If she is behind, what do you think I could do about it? Nothing, that's the beauty of Saxon. Saxon works on skill levels, not grade levels. At your dd's pace, she'll be ready for calculus either as a senior in high school, or as a freshman in college... right on schedule. :001_smile:

 

Also, is Pooh doing alright? Yes. :-)

 

Also, Saxon moves faster in the upper levels. I don't know about the new editions, but the older editions include geometry in Algebra 1, Algebra 2, and Advanced Math making the progression shorter: 87 or Algebra 1/2, Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Advanced Math, Calculus.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

However, Advanced Math sometimes takes 3-4 semesters to complete.

[EKS]

Thanks, Karen and Melanie.

 

So no-one thinks Rabbit is behind??

 

If you go backwards from 12th grade (this is the US sequence), this is what you get:

 

Grade

12 Calculus

11 Precalculus

10 Algebra II

9 Geometry

8 Algebra I

7 Saxon 8/7

6 Saxon 7/6

5 Saxon 6/5

4 Saxon 5/4

 

According to my calculations, Rabbit would be in the 6th grade here, so if she is in 6/5 then she is a year behind if you want her to start algebra in 8th grade and calculus in 12th. Lots of kids don't do calculus in high school, though. Pooh is ahead by a year using this same schedule.

[Hedgehog]

Count it out to see how much math she will have had when she is finished with school if she keeps on this path. On a standard US math plan: 6/5, 7/6, 8/7 or Pre-Alg, Alg1, Geometry, Alg2, Pre-Calc, Calc... What is the typical math progression in the UK? With 7 years left and by US standards, I think Rabbit is fine.

 

That's part of the problem.. I don't know what the standard math progression is here. I get the feeling that it's nowhere near as well defined as in the States.. from my own memory we seemed to do bits of everything, every year. It could have changed, of course, but I don't know where I could get access to the Key Stage 3 and 4 scope and sequence for Math in the National Curriculum.

 

I felt safer working on the basis of how many years I had left. At the end of the day, if Rabbit ends up a year behind, it's not a disaster if she goes to university a year late - a lot of young people do that anyway, because they choose to take a year out to find part-time work, or travel. She is 2/3 of the way through 6/5; I was hoping for her to have finished by Christmas, and starting 7/6 in January.

[KarenNC]

That's part of the problem.. I don't know what the standard math progression is here. I get the feeling that it's nowhere near as well defined as in the States.. from my own memory we seemed to do bits of everything, every year. It could have changed, of course, but I don't know where I could get access to the Key Stage 3 and 4 scope and sequence for Math in the National Curriculum.

 

I felt safer working on the basis of how many years I had left. At the end of the day, if Rabbit ends up a year behind, it's not a disaster if she goes to university a year late - a lot of young people do that anyway, because they choose to take a year out to find part-time work, or travel. She is 2/3 of the way through 6/5; I was hoping for her to have finished by Christmas, and starting 7/6 in January.

 

Check out this website http://curriculum.qcda.gov.uk/key-stages-3-and-4/subjects/key-stage-3/mathematics/index.aspx

[Hedgehog]

Also, Saxon moves faster in the upper levels. I don't know about the new editions, but the older editions include geometry in Algebra 1, Algebra 2, and Advanced Math making the progression shorter: 87 or Algebra 1/2, Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Advanced Math, Calculus.

 

I'd rather use the older editions, simply because I don't want to do a separate year of Geometry. There's no issue with credits over here; if you apply to college or university, they want to see a portfolio of work, and talk to you at length in an interview. If nothing has changed in a couple years, British universities don't work on the basis of x number of credits = graduation from high school.

 

 

However, Advanced Math sometimes takes 3-4 semesters to complete.

 

I had heard that Advanced Math can take longer to finish. Do you think we could do it in a year, if we worked year round? (I like mine to do Math year round anyway - they've always remembered it better that way. Big summer breaks never worked for us.) What is it about the Advanced Math that takes longer than the others?

[Karen in CO]

Then what you need is Galore Park. Laura Corin also has experience in this area although her boys are now in school.

[Hedgehog]

If you go backwards from 12th grade (this is the US sequence), this is what you get:

 

Grade

12 Calculus

11 Precalculus

10 Algebra II

9 Geometry

8 Algebra I

7 Saxon 8/7

6 Saxon 7/6

5 Saxon 6/5

4 Saxon 5/4

 

According to my calculations, Rabbit would be in the 6th grade here, so if she is in 6/5 then she is a year behind if you want her to start algebra in 8th grade and calculus in 12th. Lots of kids don't do calculus in high school, though. Pooh is ahead by a year using this same schedule.

 

But ok if we use the older editions and so incorporate Geometry into Algebra I and II, thus finishing Calculus in grade 12?

[Hedgehog]

Check out this website http://curriculum.qcda.gov.uk/key-stages-3-and-4/subjects/key-stage-3/mathematics/index.aspx

 

Oh help. LOTS of information.. most of which I don't understand. :001_unsure: It does not help to be a math cluck at times like these. Both the Key Stage 3 and 4 range and content say "Algebra, Geometry, and Statistics".

 

Now I have to show my utter ignorance.. what exactly is calculus, and where does it fit into the above?

[Hedgehog]

Then what you need is Galore Park. Laura Corin also has experience in this area although her boys are now in school.

 

I confess I've not really looked into Galore Park much.. simply because I got into Saxon long before I knew that Galore Park even existed, and we were - are - happy with Saxon. We understand it, at least as far as we've got.

 

Rabbit is the one who I'm more concerned about with Math - she's not a natural, but she's reasonably bright and she understands the way Saxon teaches. That, above all else, makes me very reluctant to switch programs. I really want the Saxon sequence to work for us if I can do it - kwim?

[Hedgehog]

Btw thanks for your input, Karen.. it's really appreciated. :001_smile:

[Karen in CO]

double posting.

[Karen in CO]

I confess I've not really looked into Galore Park much.. simply because I got into Saxon long before I knew that Galore Park even existed, and we were - are - happy with Saxon. We understand it, at least as far as we've got.

 

Rabbit is the one who I'm more concerned about with Math - she's not a natural, but she's reasonably bright and she understands the way Saxon teaches. That, above all else, makes me very reluctant to switch programs. I really want the Saxon sequence to work for us if I can do it - kwim?

 

Sorry. I'd never advocate switching without very good cause. GP sells guides for the Revisions (test) so that you can find out what is on them and if what you're using will get you where you want Rabbit to be eventually.

[Hedgehog]

I'd never advocate switching without a very good reason. The GP site sells guides to the Revisions (the exams) it could be helpful and reassuring to know what is on the test.

 

My bad - I didn't understand what you meant! Sorry!

 

Okay.. back the site to see if I can understand it.. *shakes head* why did I think I could do this homeschooling thing when I can't understand math beyond about 7th grade? :tongue_smilie:

Edited October 18, 2011 by Hedgehog

[Hedgehog]

Hm.. we have a slight problem in that Galore Park doesn't produce materials for Math beyond age 13 (that's the later entrance exam age for British public schools a.k.a. super posh private schools). Their 13-16yrs section only contains Spanish and Latin. I suppose I'd be looking for the scope and sequence for GCSE (16yrs), AS level (17yrs), and A level (18yrs) exams; I think that was on the website that KarenNC linked. (Trying not to get you two mixed up!!!)

Edited October 18, 2011 by Hedgehog

[Melanie]

I'm sorry, I got the names mixed up in my previous post. :)

 

Advanced Math can take 2, 3, or 4 semesters. My son will finish it up at the end of October. He has been working at it pretty steadily since last September.

[Hedgehog]

I'm sorry, I got the names mixed up in my previous post. :)

 

Advanced Math can take 2, 3, or 4 semesters. My son will finish it up at the end of October. He has been working at it pretty steadily since last September.

 

Don't worry.. I'm good at translating! :)

 

Good to know.. let's hope Rabbit can do Advanced in a similar length of time.

[Laura Corin]

Hm.. we have a slight problem in that Galore Park doesn't produce materials for Math beyond age 13 (that's the later entrance exam age for British public schools a.k.a. super posh private schools). Their 13-16yrs section only contains Spanish and Latin. I suppose I'd be looking for the scope and sequence for GCSE (16yrs), AS level (17yrs), and A level (18yrs) exams; I think that was on the website that KarenNC linked. (Trying not to get you two mixed up!!!)

 

Bond test papers also only go up to 13+, but CGP books go up to GCSEs. The books are cheap and might be good for you to compare to Saxon.

 

I would skip to a UK curriculum before reaching (US) Algebra. UK maths carries on being mixed, whereas US maths splits into different concentrations. GCSEs and A levels (if you go that route) expect mixed maths.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I'd rather use the older editions, simply because I don't want to do a separate year of Geometry. There's no issue with credits over here; if you apply to college or university, they want to see a portfolio of work, and talk to you at length in an interview. If nothing has changed in a couple years, British universities don't work on the basis of x number of credits = graduation from high school.

 

 

 

 

I had heard that Advanced Math can take longer to finish. Do you think we could do it in a year, if we worked year round? (I like mine to do Math year round anyway - they've always remembered it better that way. Big summer breaks never worked for us.) What is it about the Advanced Math that takes longer than the others?

 

We haven't gotten to Advanced Math ourselves. The longer timeline is just what I've heard.

 

Try asking about AM over on the high school board. You'll find more people there who have gone through it.

[silliness7]

I confess I've not really looked into Galore Park much.. simply because I got into Saxon long before I knew that Galore Park even existed, and we were - are - happy with Saxon. We understand it, at least as far as we've got.

 

Rabbit is the one who I'm more concerned about with Math - she's not a natural, but she's reasonably bright and she understands the way Saxon teaches. That, above all else, makes me very reluctant to switch programs. I really want the Saxon sequence to work for us if I can do it - kwim?

 

If Saxon is working and you are satisfied with it I absolutely would not switch. Switching usually slows down the process.

 

I think it's O.K. for some kids if Calculus falls off the radar. My 2nd son got really turned around at the end of 7/6. We slowed down and repeated some things. We worked over the summer. But he is in 8/7 right now in the 8th grade. Using the older Saxon books he'll be in Alg. 1 in 9th, Alg. 2 in 10th, and I'm sure he'll need 4 semesters to get through Advanced Math. Thus, no calculus. Now maybe he'll only need 3 and we can play with the first half of the Calculus book. I'm not going to stress. I would LIKE for my kids to get through Calculus although I never did. But it's also not the end of the world if they don't particularly if they're not headed for math/science fields post high school. Being solid in what they do get through is more important, imo.

[mjbucks1]

Your dd has seven years left after this year? Then the sequence would be:

7/6

8/7 (or Alg 1/2)

Alg I

Alg II

Advanced Math (even if it takes two year that would be fine)

Calculus

 

Saxon integrates Algebra and Geometry (which I think is similar to what the rest of the WORLD does. It seems that only in the US do we separate the subjects). I really think she is just fine (even if she only has 6 years left after this year). And working year round will help make sure she at least completes the Advanced Mathematics book (my ds just started it today, so we'll see how long it takes him).

[Hedgehog]

Bond test papers also only go up to 13+, but CGP books go up to GCSEs. The books are cheap and might be good for you to compare to Saxon.

 

I would skip to a UK curriculum before reaching (US) Algebra. UK maths carries on being mixed, whereas US maths splits into different concentrations. GCSEs and A levels (if you go that route) expect mixed maths.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

 

Thanks, Laura.

 

Do you think the sum total (to use a mathematical phrase ;) ) of US math - Saxon up to Calculus - is equal to A level? I am wondering what happens when a British university takes an international student who has a North American high school diploma? Because that's effectively the route I'm on at the moment.

[Hedgehog]

We haven't gotten to Advanced Math ourselves. The longer timeline is just what I've heard.

 

Try asking about AM over on the high school board. You'll find more people there who have gone through it.

 

That's a good idea.. I may well do that. Thanks.

[Hedgehog]

If Saxon is working and you are satisfied with it I absolutely would not switch. Switching usually slows down the process.

 

I think it's O.K. for some kids if Calculus falls off the radar. My 2nd son got really turned around at the end of 7/6. We slowed down and repeated some things. We worked over the summer. But he is in 8/7 right now in the 8th grade. Using the older Saxon books he'll be in Alg. 1 in 9th, Alg. 2 in 10th, and I'm sure he'll need 4 semesters to get through Advanced Math. Thus, no calculus. Now maybe he'll only need 3 and we can play with the first half of the Calculus book. I'm not going to stress. I would LIKE for my kids to get through Calculus although I never did. But it's also not the end of the world if they don't particularly if they're not headed for math/science fields post high school. Being solid in what they do get through is more important, imo.

 

That's true; at the moment, it doesn't look like Rabbit will go for Math/Science, but who knows - things could change a great deal. Thanks for your thoughts.

[Hedgehog]

Your dd has seven years left after this year? Then the sequence would be:

7/6

8/7 (or Alg 1/2)

Alg I

Alg II

Advanced Math (even if it takes two year that would be fine)

Calculus

 

Saxon integrates Algebra and Geometry (which I think is similar to what the rest of the WORLD does. It seems that only in the US do we separate the subjects). I really think she is just fine (even if she only has 6 years left after this year). And working year round will help make sure she at least completes the Advanced Mathematics book (my ds just started it today, so we'll see how long it takes him).

 

This is something I think I'm going to look into. I was considering showing the Saxon books to a PS math teacher over here, and see what they think of the difficulty level compared to the British National Curriculum.

[HSMom2One]

As the original poster of the other thread, I'm feeling discouraged myself. By what I see there it seems that most kids my dd's age are a year ahead of her in math, and I feel it's all my fault. It is a real weak area for me and so I am not a good teacher of math. But the real kicker for me is that the private school I want to enroll dd in for high school starts Algebra I in 8th grade. I'm not sure if we can get her to that level so that she'd be ready for geometry in 9th grade or not. I'm considering options in helping to insure that happens -- including having her tutored -- but I'm also considering that maybe the school would not be a good fit for her after all. I'm finding this to be a huge conundrum for me this week. All I can say is, "Lord, please give me wisdom!"

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

[Laura Corin]

Thanks, Laura.

 

Do you think the sum total (to use a mathematical phrase ;) ) of US math - Saxon up to Calculus - is equal to A level? I am wondering what happens when a British university takes an international student who has a North American high school diploma? Because that's effectively the route I'm on at the moment.

 

They all (as far as I have seen) require American SATs and AP exams. I have heard of UK home educators using a portfolio, but, for me, it was too much of a gamble. Here are a couple of university sites:

 

Bristol

Bath

 

Another option is foundation/bridge year courses, but I think those are restricted to mature students. I might be wrong about this though.

 

I would recommend calling a few universities and seeing what they say. Now is a good time, before you get too far into the teen years.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[Laura Corin]

This wiki has information about different ways that HE people have got into university. Alex Dowty used OU courses to get into university. This seems a common route for people who don't want to take GCSEs and A levels. The related Yahoo group offers advice on all forms of qualifications.

 

In answer to your question about how US and UK maths qualifications compare: the author of Life of Fred cast a quick eye over the IGCSE syllabus (which includes some things that the GCSE one doesn't, like some calculus) and said that - for his US-based texts:

 

It looks like the Life of Fred series (from the first book on fractions to the calculus and statistics books) pretty much fit the material for the [iGCSE].

There is more in the Life of Fred Calculus and in LOF: Statistics than will be needed for this exam, but there is material in each of those books that will be needed.

 

So that means that the IGCSE covers US Algebra I and II, Geometry, Trigonometry and parts of Statistics and Calculus.

 

ETA: I also came across this website from an international school which talks about UK syllabus pupils entering US universities. I know that's not what you are planning, but it has some interesting things to say about where the crossover points lie between IGCSE/A levels and US SAT/SAT II.

 

ETA again: This website offers more information on equivalence.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

Edited October 20, 2011 by Laura Corin

[Hedgehog]

As the original poster of the other thread, I'm feeling discouraged myself. By what I see there it seems that most kids my dd's age are a year ahead of her in math, and I feel it's all my fault. It is a real weak area for me and so I am not a good teacher of math. But the real kicker for me is that the private school I want to enroll dd in for high school starts Algebra I in 8th grade. I'm not sure if we can get her to that level so that she'd be ready for geometry in 9th grade or not. I'm considering options in helping to insure that happens -- including having her tutored -- but I'm also considering that maybe the school would not be a good fit for her after all. I'm finding this to be a huge conundrum for me this week. All I can say is, "Lord, please give me wisdom!"

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

 

:grouphug: I'm sure you'll be able to work something out. Maybe the Lord is guiding you in a different direction for your dd's high school years?

[Hedgehog]

This wiki has information about different ways that HE people have got into university. Alex Dowty used OU courses to get into university. This seems a common route for people who don't want to take GCSEs and A levels. The related Yahoo group offers advice on all forms of qualifications.

 

In answer to your question about how US and UK maths qualifications compare: the author of Life of Fred cast a quick eye over the IGCSE syllabus (which includes some things that the GCSE one doesn't, like some calculus) and said that - for his US-based texts:

 

It looks like the Life of Fred series (from the first book on fractions to the calculus and statistics books) pretty much fit the material for the [iGCSE].

There is more in the Life of Fred Calculus and in LOF: Statistics than will be needed for this exam, but there is material in each of those books that will be needed.

 

So that means that the IGCSE covers US Algebra I and II, Geometry, Trigonometry and parts of Statistics and Calculus.

 

ETA: I also came across this website from an international school which talks about UK syllabus pupils entering US universities. I know that's not what you are planning, but it has some interesting things to say about where the crossover points lie between IGCSE/A levels and US SAT/SAT II.

 

ETA again: This website offers more information on equivalence.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

 

Thanks for all the information. I've joined the yahoo group above.

 

It seems that a US high school diploma is roughly equivalent in standard to AS levels, and good AP results move the standard up to A level, but British math tends to be mixed rather than the separate disciplines of algebra, geometry and calculus. I am wondering whether that perhaps wouldn't matter, if we skipped GCSEs and just went straight to A levels.

 

As an aside, I've also been talking (today) to a homeschooling friend of mine who is working on the better organisation of flexi-schooling arrangements with local authorities here in the UK. One of the ideas is to enable homeschoolers to take exams in schools/colleges as part of their flexi-school arrangement, which of course means we wouldn't have to pay for them. :D - she did say that Scotland has much better legislation for this sort of thing!

[Laura Corin]

Thanks for all the information. I've joined the yahoo group above.

 

It seems that a US high school diploma is roughly equivalent in standard to AS levels, AS levels or GCSEs, depending on who you talk to.....and good AP results move the standard up to A level, but British math tends to be mixed rather than the separate disciplines of algebra, geometry and calculus. I am wondering whether that perhaps wouldn't matter, if we skipped GCSEs and just went straight to A levels. The problem comes when you apply to university. The traditional timing means that you are given conditional offers for university entrance before you've taken A levels, so the universities rely on GCSEs for making offers. If you apply a year later then it might not matter so much.

 

As an aside, I've also been talking (today) to a homeschooling friend of mine who is working on the better organisation of flexi-schooling arrangements with local authorities here in the UK. One of the ideas is to enable homeschoolers to take exams in schools/colleges as part of their flexi-school arrangement, which of course means we wouldn't have to pay for them. :D - she did say that Scotland has much better legislation for this sort of thing! Not that I've heard. Scottish qualifications are just as hard to manage as GCSEs - lots of in-school assessment which is hard for HE people. Calvin took three qualifications before deciding to go to school - one IGCSE and two GCSEs (before they changed the syllabus to make almost all GCSEs include course work)

 

Good luck!

 

Laura

[Hedgehog]

The problem comes when you apply to university. The traditional timing means that you are given conditional offers for university entrance before you've taken A levels, so the universities rely on GCSEs for making offers. If you apply a year later then it might not matter so much.

 

Laura

 

That's interesting - it means it's changed since I was in school; the universities I applied to didn't ask for GCSE results, they were looking at first year sixth results and teacher predicted grades. But that was a few years ago. ;)

[Laura Corin]

That's interesting - it means it's changed since I was in school; the universities I applied to didn't ask for GCSE results, they were looking at first year sixth results and teacher predicted grades. But that was a few years ago. ;)

 

The competition is so fierce that they are looking at everything. Here's an article.

 

Laura

[Hedgehog]

The competition is so fierce that they are looking at everything. Here's an article.

 

Laura

 

Wow. Just wow. Talk about pressure!!

[Laura Corin]

Wow. Just wow. Talk about pressure!!

 

Calvin is doing GCSEs at school this year. He did three before going to school and got two A* and a B. He is convinced that that one B is going to ruin his life.

 

Laura